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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    I am guessing you have never really modified a car under warranty. I seriously don't understand where some peoples misconceptions come from. If you modify a device under warranty, if the modification can be shown to cause damage, you can void that part of your warranty. It is part of the game modifying ANYTHING you "own." You don't own the warranty (the manufacturer and/or seller does).
    Sorry but that is a different story. Modifying a car means modifying hardware. If you modify the hardware of a palm you void your warranty.
    But installing linux on a windows pc does not void the warranty of the pc hardware? Or installing a homebrew program on your windows pc will not void your warranty.
    The palm is a (small) computer. I want to install what I want.
    EDIT: BTW: One big reason I didn't buy an iPhone.
    And arrasmith has a problem with the hardware not the software.
    Last edited by somline; 10/02/2010 at 03:46 AM.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by somline View Post
    Sorry but that is a different story. Modifying a car means modifying hardware. If you modify the hardware of a palm you void your warranty.
    But installing linux on a windows pc does not void the warranty of the pc hardware? Or installing a homebrew program on your windows pc will not void your warranty.
    The palm is a (small) computer. I want to install what I want.
    And arrasmith has a problem with the hardware not the software.
    If you overclock a Palm Pre, you are telling it's processor - which runs at a stock 500MHz - to run at 800MHz or 1000GHz instead.

    Texas Instruments, and any other chip manufacturer, can only guarantee a certain lifetime for a chip assuming a certain speed. The fact that we got our chips in here means that TI produced them, sampled them, and found out that these particular chips can safely run at 600MHz for the time period of their manufacturer warranty.

    I'm sorry, but you really seem unreasonable here. You want to buy a product, roughhouse with it in ways that the manufacturer tells you isn't covered by warranty, and then throw a cranky temper tantrum when your broken toy isn't replaced for free after you broke the rules.
    ("what do you mean, you're kicking us out of paradise? you can't do that! I mean, you told us not to eat that fruit but I really think it's my prerogative to eat that fruit. I'm gonna sue your **** and have your job in court!")

    The Software/Hardware thing you're talking about is the exact reason why Palm lets you install everything other than Overclock kernels without saying a word: hardware changes break your bones but apps can never hurt you. Or something like that. But software that actually tells your HARDWARE to go outside of its specifications is a different story.
    Last edited by GodShapedHole; 10/02/2010 at 03:57 AM.
  3.    #23  
    I already said that.
    EDIT: Sorry I didn't mention this again. You're right. And overclocking I would count under "Hardware modification".
    Last edited by somline; 10/02/2010 at 04:10 AM.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by somline View Post
    Sorry but that is a different story. Modifying a car means modifying hardware. If you modify the hardware of a palm you void your warranty.
    But installing linux on a windows pc does not void the warranty of the pc hardware? Or installing a homebrew program on your windows pc will not void your warranty.
    The palm is a (small) computer. I want to install what I want.
    EDIT: BTW: One big reason I didn't buy an iPhone.
    And arrasmith has a problem with the hardware not the software.
    Once again you fundamentally misunderstand (CLEARLY). You can actually flash a cars ECU (changing no hardware just the ECU programming), this could then void the warranty on certain things other than just the ECU.

    If you read my whole post (yes I know it was long), you may or may not void your warranty by using Preware. What you do do, as I said, by using unauthorized software, if said software were to render your phone beyond your own ability to repair, the manufacturer doesn't owe you any type of support to repair the problem. If the unauthorized software were to in some way render some hardware inoperable, once again the manufacturer does not owe you warranty coverage.

    From your reply to my post you clearly have some misunderstandings, especially when making the comment that "one big reason why you didn't buy an iphone." You are now comparing warranty coverage (your question about preware), with apple locking down it's phones and attempting to track and potentially go after anyone running a modified device. You need to do some more research on the topic in general, I am being very honest about the situation, you can void your warranty using preware..... If you have moderate computer knowledge, are willing to read, and listen to instructions you probably won't.


    This is completely opposite of Apple's policy with jailbreaking their product. Palm has given us the tools to restore most any issue with the phone, your level of success is based on your personal abilities or the abilities of the people you know. So there is a chance of you voiding your warranty using preware as it is an unwarranted product (BTW this is all over the place from the people that develop these homebrew products) they nor Palm are responsible if you bork something, they and many others will help you fix it.... as I have said now about 25 times, this still relies on your abilities and comfort level and ability to follow instructions. Many folks spend A LOT of time around here repeating what many people haven't already taken the time to read and learn..... I am just being real about the whole thing.

    If you really want to know what you should do, start searching for threads here and other places about people "bricking" their Pre. That is what I did when I decided the sky was the limit, understanding I have enough ability and OCD to use the tools Palm gave us to bring my phone back if I were to mess anything up.
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    You need to do some more research on the topic in general, I am being very honest about the situation, you can void your warranty using preware..... If you have moderate computer knowledge, are willing to read, and listen to instructions you probably won't.

    as I have said now about 25 times, this still relies on your abilities and comfort level and ability to follow instructions. Many folks spend A LOT of time around here repeating what many people haven't already taken the time to read and learn..... I am just being real about the whole thing.

    If you really want to know what you should do, start searching for threads here and other places about people "bricking" their Pre. That is what I did when I decided the sky was the limit, understanding I have enough ability and OCD to use the tools Palm gave us to bring my phone back if I were to mess anything up.
    Thanks, the problem seems to be my limited knowledge of computers ;-) EDIT: And cars.

    Palm officially gave us the developer mode and novacom. I can brick my phone with that. I never read somewhere that using these palm tools will void the warranty of the device. Maybe you can point me to that?

    EDIT: But to make it short: My question is somewhat answered. Preware may or may not void your warranty.
    But your provider can deny a warranty repair when preware is installed.
    Thanks all for your answers.
    Last edited by somline; 10/02/2010 at 04:33 AM.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by somline View Post
    Thanks, the problem seems to be my limited knowledge of computers ;-) EDIT: And cars.

    Palm officially gave us the developer mode and novacom. I can brick my phone with that. I never read somewhere that using these palm tools will void the warranty of the device. Maybe you can point me to that?

    EDIT: But to make it short: My question is somewhat answered. Preware may or may not void your warranty.
    But your provider can deny a warranty repair when preware is installed.
    Thanks all for your answers.
    Palm gave developers, those tools. I am glad you are understanding my ranting and it surely wasn't pointed at you directly. Palm makes those tools readily and easily available to any that may want to develop on WebOS, where as Apple makes people jump thru more hoops just to get the ability to have official access to those tools..... then even when Apple dev's have access to the same tools we have access to out of the box, if they overstep the bounds apple has set, they don't even have the options Palm developers and end users have.

    This truly is the fundamental difference you were looking for, a warranty is coverage of the complete device by the manufacturer for a period of time. Unlike iOS or android, Palm/HP gives us all a manufacturer approved way to get back to factory installation. To reference there was a recent article (can't remember where I read it) about an android user having to use a rom from a random source to get his phone back to "factory" and the source and safety of the rom was not known. Palm and continues with HP have the best support I have ever seen from ANY manufacturer (of any type of device) when it comes to allowing people to play with their device and return to a trusted factory spec.
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
  7. #27  
    1) Overclocking may void your warranty - Palm has stated that publicly in an official statement on the Palm web site. That notice remains there to this date, and is linked in the description in Preware of every overclocking kernel.

    2) Palm has made no official statement about whether or not normal homebrew applications have any effect on your warranty, but when queried unofficially, the response from Palm has been constant: overclocking may void your warranty, other homebrew usage (including Preware) does not.

    3) Store managers and staff at carrier stores make up rules on the spot with no official basis or standing. You should not believe what they say, but unless you are willing to fight them in court you may have no recourse.

    4) To save yourself the hassle, always webOS Doctor your device to put it back to factory pristine condition before taking it to a carrier store or repair centre. You should do this anyway to make sure that it really is a hardware issue that is reproducible after a fresh webOS Doctor.

    5) These questions are repeated every couple of months, and the answers remain the same.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  8.    #28  
    Thank's Rod,
    glad I didn't wrote some bull-Scheiße here.
  9. #29  
    +1 @OldschollVWLover.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    I am guessing you have never really modified a car under warranty. I seriously don't understand where some peoples misconceptions come from. If you modify a device under warranty, if the modification can be shown to cause damage, you can void that part of your warranty. It is part of the game modifying ANYTHING you "own." You don't own the warranty (the manufacturer and/or seller does).
    First vehicle I owned was a 57 Ford pickup in 1990. Outside of original warranty, but plenty of parts I had to mess with (read modify) to get to work on it. And if the new carburetor I bought failed before warranty I took it back and got a new one.

    As you said it all varies by modifications.

    And a preware application is just as likely to bork my phone as an official Palm app. Period. The system runs as ROOT! Heck, any app could switch current_clocksource to jiffies from 32k_counter just for fun (just one example).

    The issue is the kernel. The stock kernel exposes dangerous stuff to EVERYONE as is. And I personally don't believe the over clocking kernels are really over clocking. The system board from TI is obviously capable of running at 1+GHz. We aren't physically modifying the board to push voltages outside of spec to get those speeds. The kernel is running the board at clocks the board provides to it. So, by not ignoring this board resource (like Palm's kernel is) we void the warranty? If you dive a Honda Fit on the autobahn wide open day after day. Will Honda void the warranty?

    This is probably why the Palm stance is it "may" void the warranty. And I would bet money on WebOS 2.0 having variable clocks. Most likely 500-720 screenstate.


    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    This all varies by what modifications you did, the root of your warranty request, and the person/people you are dealing with. This is in regards to ANY warranty replacement you EVER do in your life. BTW, you can void a computer warranty by cracking the case and installing a new card in it (assuming you aren't an authorized tech).
    You can't void the warranty by cracking the case. That is wrong. I have about 200+ computers to oversee maintenance of. If the linux kernel says the memory in slot 1 of cpu 0 is bad. I pull it and tell the manufacture to cross ship a new one. And then throw in a new 4 port network card I had because when the system is off is a good time to do it. The "authorized tech" lie Dell and others use is one they use to sell support contracts.

    Anyway. If TI didn't want the other clock speeds they could have prevented it. I don't expect my hand to be held. I expect the HARDWARE to continue to function as I purchased it for one year. If I mess with the kernel and apps and Doctor it a couple of times all trying to figure out if I have a hardware or software issue, the warranty is still valid.

    The question is if they will honor it. And if they typical person will make them honor it. And the answer to both is usually no to both.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by arrasmith View Post
    You can't void the warranty by cracking the case. That is wrong. I have about 200+ computers to oversee maintenance of. If the linux kernel says the memory in slot 1 of cpu 0 is bad. I pull it and tell the manufacture to cross ship a new one. And then throw in a new 4 port network card I had because when the system is off is a good time to do it. The "authorized tech" lie Dell and others use is one they use to sell support contracts.
    Uhmmm you are wrong... you CAN void a warranty by cracking the case, this depends on the manufacturer, the contract, etc. Then again you say you oversee 200+ computers running linux kernels so my guess would be you are not the average user running the average PC. As I said somewhere in this thread, voiding the warranty excludes a licensed tech. Furthermore, if you are "overseeing 200+ linux" boxes regardless of your qualifications you are most likely not dealing with off the shelf product.

    Regardless you made my point, you are speaking of replacing memory..... if you do what you say you do, you are smart enough to know you are arguing semantics with this post and not real world use. For the average end user, they will never experience the case in which you describe.
    I love physical keyboards... but there is two devices that would make me consider a slab, one is something running a full version of Open webOS. The other is an iPhone!!!! HA HA just kidding (about the iPhone that is)...
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    Uhmmm you are wrong... you CAN void a warranty by cracking the case, this depends on the manufacturer, the contract, etc. Then again you say you oversee 200+ computers running linux kernels so my guess would be you are not the average user running the average PC. As I said somewhere in this thread, voiding the warranty excludes a licensed tech. Furthermore, if you are "overseeing 200+ linux" boxes regardless of your qualifications you are most likely not dealing with off the shelf product.

    Regardless you made my point, you are speaking of replacing memory..... if you do what you say you do, you are smart enough to know you are arguing semantics with this post and not real world use. For the average end user, they will never experience the case in which you describe.
    I was wondering today if we are only arguing meaning along with your "real world" comment. Which was funny because I don't work in the real world. I work at a university.

    I know there are end use agreements (and stickers right on case screws) that say you void the warranty if you pop the case. I remove these stickers every year for various reasons and have always had the warranty honored. And we do have typical off the shelf hardware/software along with custom linux systems (research clusters and LTSP environments). And I have never heard of the pop-the-case limitation holding up in court.

    Now for the "real world". An end user doesn't have a university lawyer for troublesome legal issues. Or the purchasing power either. So I suppose a warranty is only as strong or weak as the power the end user has. But, my experiences shape my opinion. And until I also see a court case where the rights of ownership (which are well documented) are set aside by end use agreements, what I said before will stay my opinion.

    Anyway, I kind of started this thread by sharing my Sprint Store experience in a different thread. I had doctored my phone before heading in to the store. My problem was they asked what I thought the problem was. And I told them. They asked how. And I told them. They handed back the phone said I voided the warranty. (See rwhitby advise #3 above)

    Which brings this warranty argument back around. I suppose a warranty is only as strong or weak as the power the end user has.

    Now I AM a typical end user and my only power with Sprint is the two year contract I signed. With 5 Palm phones (4 are Pre's). I could always just tell them the early termination fees are worth it and just leave. But would their over $4000 net loss be worth them replacing my phone? Don't know.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Uhm, not be rude, but it totally depends who you talk to.
    I know for a fact Sprint users have been denied warranty repair because their Pre showed a patched number of launch pages, and I know OC'd units have been replaced by both Palm and carriers, without so much as checking if the malfunctioning/defect was caused by any user action.
    I've seen that mentioned in other threads here as well. If it happens at a store, call the customer support desk, go through the 50 or so prompts and interminable wait time it takes to get to a live operator and the problem will likely get resolved. A warranty denial based on software is due to a clueless representative.

    Now that said, overclocking as mentioned before is probably gonna eventually fry the processor and that would (and should) void the warranty. There's a reason they throttle the speed. And battery drain is very possibly due to software and radio settings such as:

    1. Do you have GPS always on? There's now a patch that will turn it on "on demand" and off again when the app that needs it closes.
    2. How often do your email accounts sync and how many do you have? "As they come in" will suck the battery dry in no time. 15min is less demanding and almost as effective if you must be that quickly informed.
    3. Is the brightness of the screen set to the full amount? Do you need it full bright? That could actually be too intense for some and it does take more battery power.

    So they might want to check those things out before replacing a unit based on battery drain. And a knowledgeable rep will go through all that.
    ---
    Handspring Visor>Sony 710c>Sony NX60>Sony NX80>Treo 700p>Palm Pre Plus>Went over to the dark side with phone->Samsung Droid Charge
    HP Touchpad!
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    1) Overclocking may void your warranty - Palm has stated that publicly in an official statement on the Palm web site. That notice remains there to this date, and is linked in the description in Preware of every overclocking kernel.

    2) Palm has made no official statement about whether or not normal homebrew applications have any effect on your warranty, but when queried unofficially, the response from Palm has been constant: overclocking may void your warranty, other homebrew usage (including Preware) does not.

    3) Store managers and staff at carrier stores make up rules on the spot with no official basis or standing. You should not believe what they say, but unless you are willing to fight them in court you may have no recourse.

    4) To save yourself the hassle, always webOS Doctor your device to put it back to factory pristine condition before taking it to a carrier store or repair centre. You should do this anyway to make sure that it really is a hardware issue that is reproducible after a fresh webOS Doctor.

    5) These questions are repeated every couple of months, and the answers remain the same.

    -- Rod
    As Rod has stated...all this is true.
    Ex HP webOS Tech Support

    5Ts: Five ways to get your webOS tablet working again: http://www.hpwebos.com/5Ts

    6Ts: Six ways to get your webOS phone working again: http://www.hpwebos.com/6Ts
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