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  1. nullr's Avatar
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       #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by demetry14 View Post
    The Palm Pre is a Linux phone and if you have ever used Linux, you know it never needs to be rebooted unless a hardware swap is necessary. So if your rebooting your phone for a reason, you could most likely eliminate your reboot by a simple command line, script or patch.

    I KNOW NOT EVERYONE KNOWS HOW TO USE LINUX, SO DON'T FLAME ME FOR THAT. I AM HERE TO HELP IF I CAN. PM ME IF YOU NEED HELP WITH SOMETHING LINUX AND IF I CAN HELP I WILL DO SO.
    Scripting takes time, skill and effort. Rebooting would not be ideal if you were a business with were downtime is not an option on a phone its not as big of a deal they can talk to the voice mail. Although I only turn off my phone when its doctored or when the battery dies for most people its just simple to hold a button and select and option.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbrad425 View Post
    My launch day Palm Pre Non-Doctored takes 9 minutes for reboot, I have a bunch of programs plus homebrewed.
    Who knows how many unnecessary old patches and programs are slowing you down. 9 minutes is beyond ridiculous. I can doctor reinstall preware and have all my stuff synced and many of my programs installed in less than an hour. Definitely need to clean once in a while and the doctor does all the work for you.
  2. ChillHill's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dariste View Post
    Why does everyone say that blackberrys have solid batteries? My 8330 needed to charged at the end of the day even without me using it. I didn't even have any Email synced to it either. It also took forever.
    Back on topic my phone takes about 5-6 minutes to boot. I have about 150 apps so that never helps.
    Thats alot of apps lol
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by scytherfwd View Post
    Rod - Is luna the WM, like X.org would be on our desktops? If not, what all does it control?

    I'd like more info on upstart manager as well. Does it replace the need to reboot after putting the device into dev. mode? I'm still very new to how this os works under the hood and any explanation would be great.
    Correct me if I'm wrong... I think Luna's more like a Window Manager like Enlightenment, GNOME or KDE rather than X.
    Palm IIIc -> Sony CLIÉ T650C -> Sony TJ-37 -> Palm TX -> Palm Centro -> Palm Pre Bell -> Palm Pre Plus Bell/Verizon Hybrid -> HP Veer -> HP Pre 3 NA -> BlackBerry Classic -> BlackBerry Priv

    It's a Late Goodbye, such a Late Goodbye.

    Need OEM Palm Pre parts? See here
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by demetry14 View Post
    The Palm Pre is a Linux phone and if you have ever used Linux, you know it never needs to be rebooted unless a hardware swap is necessary. So if your rebooting your phone for a reason, you could most likely eliminate your reboot by a simple command line, script or patch.
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    Agreed. Apart from replacing the kernel, there should be no reason to reboot a webOS device. Anything else can be restarted using the Upstart Manager application or by restarting LunaSysMgr.

    -- Rod
    Practically speaking I'm not sure about that since:

    1. Developer Mode requires a reboot
    2. WebOS updates require reboot
    3. When you log onto your profile for the first time requires a reboot


    There are some other things that require a reboot that I can't remember right now.

    I'm not familiar with Upstart Manager because there doesn't seem to be any information about it (far as I can tell). And there is no mention how Upstart Manager could specifically help in the above examples.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by deesugar View Post
    Practically speaking I'm not sure about that since:

    1. Developer Mode requires a reboot
    2. WebOS updates require reboot
    3. When you log onto your profile for the first time requires a reboot


    There are some other things that require a reboot that I can't remember right now.

    I'm not familiar with Upstart Manager because there doesn't seem to be any information about it (far as I can tell). And there is no mention how Upstart Manager could specifically help in the above examples.
    Ok, so maybe Rod oversimplified when he said "no reason to reboot". Obviously, the scenarios you've listed to force you to do a full reboot of your Pre, but seriously, how often are people turning developer mode on and off? (If you're doing this regularly, why?? I would think it would be easiest to just leave it on.) As for the other two, while we've had a bunch of updates in the last year, we're still not talking about having to reboot daily for this, and why would you have to log onto your profile for the first time more than just the first time?

    The point people were trying to make is that for those people out there who are complaining about how long it takes to reboot their Pre, perhaps they should consider the fact that there's really not much need to do a full reboot when a simple luna boot will do. Anyone who's doing a full reboot when, for example, they get a too many cards error is going about things the hard way. Download Luna Manager from Preware (or even just use Luna Manager from the app menu inside Preware if you don't want a separate app) and drastically reduce your frustration over reboot times. If the only time you're having to do a full reboot is as part of installing a new update, you won't even notice the lengthy reboot anymore.
  6. #26  
    I think some of us get conflicting info. I know rwhitby has more knowledge about Pre's then most, so I really listen when he has something he has to say. I do however see posts that not only tell a person to reboot, but to also pull the battery. That's a step beyond doing a full restart. What are us dumb a*s's to do? Normally I do a full re-boot when things aren't working right , but since rwhitby said Luna restarts are all it takes (for every day problems), I'll do that first from now on.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Ok, so maybe Rod oversimplified when he said "no reason to reboot". Obviously, the scenarios you've listed to force you to do a full reboot of your Pre, but seriously, how often are people turning developer mode on and off? (If you're doing this regularly, why?? I would think it would be easiest to just leave it on.) As for the other two, while we've had a bunch of updates in the last year, we're still not talking about having to reboot daily for this, and why would you have to log onto your profile for the first time more than just the first time?

    The point people were trying to make is that for those people out there who are complaining about how long it takes to reboot their Pre, perhaps they should consider the fact that there's really not much need to do a full reboot when a simple luna boot will do. Anyone who's doing a full reboot when, for example, they get a too many cards error is going about things the hard way. Download Luna Manager from Preware (or even just use Luna Manager from the app menu inside Preware if you don't want a separate app) and drastically reduce your frustration over reboot times. If the only time you're having to do a full reboot is as part of installing a new update, you won't even notice the lengthy reboot anymore.
    So you're telling me Luna Restart CLEARS ALL MEMORY that a restart would? You're telling me when I'm having problems with the phone a Luna Restart or something else would solve ALL PROBLEMS over a normal restart?

    Because I think a lot of people aren't sure what to do and when they're in doubt, they do a restart. I don't see any guide showing me when I don't have to do a restart and what the alternative method is. I think you have to remember the type of audience you're speaking to in these forums. A lot of them are not at Rod's level, including myself and when people are looking for specific answers to direct questions, oversimplified answers with statements like Linux is so great you should never have to reboot it, doesn't help these people much especially when you start talking about things like Upstart Manager which most people are not familiar with and there is no information for. Some people might not even know what Luna Manager is.

    Plus the OP was talking about how to make the boot process faster. Rod's response (and others) kinda ignores the whole point of the thread.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by deesugar View Post
    So you're telling me Luna Restart CLEARS ALL MEMORY that a restart would? You're telling me when I'm having problems with the phone a Luna Restart or something else would solve ALL PROBLEMS over a normal restart?

    Because I think a lot of people aren't sure what to do and when they're in doubt, they do a restart. I don't see any guide showing me when I don't have to do a restart and what the alternative method is. I think you have to remember the type of audience you're speaking to in these forums. A lot of them are not at Rod's level, including myself and when people are looking for specific answers to direct questions, oversimplified answers with statements like Linux is so great you should never have to reboot it, doesn't help these people much especially when you start talking about things like Upstart Manager which most people are not familiar with and there is no information for. Some people might not even know what Luna Manager is.

    Plus the OP was talking about how to make the boot process faster. Rod's response (and others) kinda ignores the whole point of the thread.
    The reason why I have ignored the original point of this thread is because the targets posted by some people ("boot webOS in 20 seconds") are simply unrealistic. If someone wants to get into a serious discussion about what changes to make the the Linux boot sequence and Palm proprietary services to achieve incrementally better boot times, then perhaps they should start a serious thread about it, rather than a "gimme gimme an unrealistic outcome but I don't want to understand how" thread.

    With regard to rebooting Linux, an experienced Linux user can solve most problems on the Pre without rebooting. However, 99.99999999% of webOS users are not experienced Linux users. But they can learn the difference between a full device reboot and a Luna Restart, and use a Luna Restart as a first resort rather than using an unclean battery pull without shutdown as a first resort.

    The point is that the number of scenarios that require more than a Luna Restart are few, and the boot time related to a Luna Restart is in the realm of Proprietary palm files. So no-one is incentivised to improve the first part (cause the people who have the knowledge to speed that part up never reboot their devices anyway) and no-one is able to improve the second part (cause it's all in Palm proprietary binaries).

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by deesugar View Post
    So you're telling me Luna Restart CLEARS ALL MEMORY that a restart would? You're telling me when I'm having problems with the phone a Luna Restart or something else would solve ALL PROBLEMS over a normal restart?

    Because I think a lot of people aren't sure what to do and when they're in doubt, they do a restart. I don't see any guide showing me when I don't have to do a restart and what the alternative method is. I think you have to remember the type of audience you're speaking to in these forums. A lot of them are not at Rod's level, including myself and when people are looking for specific answers to direct questions, oversimplified answers with statements like Linux is so great you should never have to reboot it, doesn't help these people much especially when you start talking about things like Upstart Manager which most people are not familiar with and there is no information for. Some people might not even know what Luna Manager is.

    Plus the OP was talking about how to make the boot process faster. Rod's response (and others) kinda ignores the whole point of the thread.
    I'm wondering the same thing. From tmc to your data dropping, or Airplane mode being stuck on. If these can be solved with a full device reboot, then a luna restart can do the same thing? If so, then a lot of people are doing a ton of reboots when its not necessary...

    -Gu1l7y
    "It is innocent, unless found Gu1l7y.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    The reason why I have ignored the original point of this thread is because the targets posted by some people ("boot webOS in 20 seconds") are simply unrealistic. If someone wants to get into a serious discussion about what changes to make the the Linux boot sequence and Palm proprietary services to achieve incrementally better boot times, then perhaps they should start a serious thread about it, rather than a "gimme gimme an unrealistic outcome but I don't want to understand how" thread.

    With regard to rebooting Linux, an experienced Linux user can solve most problems on the Pre without rebooting. However, 99.99999999% of webOS users are not experienced Linux users. But they can learn the difference between a full device reboot and a Luna Restart, and use a Luna Restart as a first resort rather than using an unclean battery pull without shutdown as a first resort.

    The point is that the number of scenarios that require more than a Luna Restart are few, and the boot time related to a Luna Restart is in the realm of Proprietary palm files. So no-one is incentivised to improve the first part (cause the people who have the knowledge to speed that part up never reboot their devices anyway) and no-one is able to improve the second part (cause it's all in Palm proprietary binaries).

    -- Rod
    So you don't like the premise of the OP's question, I guess that's your right but a little hostile.

    You think the OP is being unrealistic, once again your right but maybe he's unrealistic because he doesn't understand Linux and WebOS to the level that you do. Might be better to educate us why this is not possible (currently) or speculate what things in the future would make it faster by devs or Palm. You did do that a little in your last paragraph by the way, so thanks.

    You say 99.99999999% of users can learn the difference between a full device reboot and a Luna Restart. I thought the forums were a way for most users to learn about WebOS and the difference between such things?

    All I'm trying to say is it would be more worthwhile for everyone if you educated a little more then dismissed forum members and told them to figure it out on their own.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by deesugar View Post
    So you don't like the premise of the OP's question, I guess that's your right but a little hostile.

    You think the OP is being unrealistic, once again your right but maybe he's unrealistic because he doesn't understand Linux and WebOS to the level that you do. Might be better to educate us why this is not possible (currently) or speculate what things in the future would make it faster by devs or Palm. You did do that a little in your last paragraph by the way, so thanks.

    You say 99.99999999% of users can learn the difference between a full device reboot and a Luna Restart. I thought the forums were a way for most users to learn about WebOS and the difference between such things?

    All I'm trying to say is it would be more worthwhile for everyone if you educated a little more then dismissed forum members and told them to figure it out on their own.
    Actually, now I look back at the start of this particular thread, it seems that I have confused it with a similar thread on the same topic which had far more unrealistic and ludicrous posts in it. Apologies to the OP of this thread.

    The trouble is that I have read about 6 different threads on this topic, and provided my constructive input on each, but new threads keep popping up.

    How do you suggest that the knowledge given over and over again constructively in each of those other threads is effectively passed to the OP and participants of this thread?

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    How do you suggest that the knowledge given over and over again constructively in each of those other threads is effectively passed to the OP and participants of this thread?
    -- Rod
    I don't think you can ensure anything like that. Either you ignore threads like this or keep trying to help people. I think you might have some unrealistic expectations of your own if you think you can educate in a few threads and that will be the end of that.

    It's like going from kiddie pool to kiddie pool and being frustrated because you taught a few kids how to swim and can't understand why everyone in the world hasn't learned to swim yet.

    Just my .02
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by deesugar View Post
    I don't think you can ensure anything like that. Either you ignore threads like this or keep trying to help people. I think you might have some unrealistic expectations of your own if you think you can educate in a few threads and that will be the end of that.

    It's like going from kiddie pool to kiddie pool and being frustrated because you taught a few kids how to swim and can't understand why everyone in the world hasn't learned to swim yet.

    Just my .02
    My expectation is that experienced users such as yourself pitch in and summarise the information for the new users. Perhaps that is an unrealistic expectation for this community ...

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  14. #34  
    "Correct me if I'm wrong... I think Luna's more like a Window Manager like Enlightenment, GNOME or KDE rather than X. "

    Toni, that's what I was asking. Is it a desktop environment that is running on a WM like how kde, gnome. fwce, etc... do or is it the actual WM itself like X is. If it's like X but with the gui integrated, like how windows or osx does it, then a luna restart would fix just about everything. It'd be like doing an init 3 and than an init 5 in most redhat based systems (or basically dropping into single user mode and then back into multi user with wm/networking/desktop).

    Unfortunately, Luna is mentioned in so many threads, it is nearly impossible for me to sift through them all for a more definitive answer. Rod, I think this may be why you see so many repeat threads. Some come from people not looking things up, the other is the signal to noise ratio is a bit high on a forum this large. You also have new pre users all the time and many of them are not willing to go digging through a hundred 4-7 page threads to find an answer that someone can rattle off in 40 seconds without thinking about it or someone who can supply a link to the right thread to read. That is the way with most forums.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by scytherfwd View Post
    "Correct me if I'm wrong... I think Luna's more like a Window Manager like Enlightenment, GNOME or KDE rather than X. "

    Toni, that's what I was asking. Is it a desktop environment that is running on a WM like how kde, gnome. fwce, etc... do or is it the actual WM itself like X is. If it's like X but with the gui integrated, like how windows or osx does it, then a luna restart would fix just about everything. It'd be like doing an init 3 and than an init 5 in most redhat based systems (or basically dropping into single user mode and then back into multi user with wm/networking/desktop).
    That's exactly what it is like.

    Unfortunately, Luna is mentioned in so many threads, it is nearly impossible for me to sift through them all for a more definitive answer. Rod, I think this may be why you see so many repeat threads. Some come from people not looking things up, the other is the signal to noise ratio is a bit high on a forum this large. You also have new pre users all the time and many of them are not willing to go digging through a hundred 4-7 page threads to find an answer that someone can rattle off in 40 seconds without thinking about it or someone who can supply a link to the right thread to read. That is the way with most forums.
    Yes, that's why WebOS Internals uses a wiki, but it's a challenge getting people to keep that up to date too ...

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  16. #36  
    This thread has gone off topic and should be returned to the OP's original inquiry.
    If you want an instant on OS go buy an Acer with Splashtop in the meantime.

    On the otherhand... If you are willing to learn and WANT to know more, the WebOS-Internals team has a great wiki. Even with how hard it is to keep current and organized itself, still a great wiki!
    16 Candles, The Breakfast Club SB, Friday SB, App Catalog Fix, Palm Pre/Pixi - USB Modem, TMC Workaround, SCRIM Changing OTF

    The fastest way to install Preware on your WebOS device.
    Put your device in Developer mode.
    From your PC download the Preware installer from http://get.preware.org
    Run the Preware installer while the WebOS device is connected with the USB cable to your PC.
    Vualla Preware is installed.]
  17. #37  
    My expectation is that experienced users such as yourself pitch in and summarise the information for the new users. Perhaps that is an unrealistic expectation for this community ...

    Rod,
    I read, heed, and appreciate everything you and your fellow cohorts have done to work with Palm, even gain acceptance from them. Hell, I wish they would hire you and pay you for the work you do.

    However, this comment - I hope you were tired when you wrote it. I do heartily think that is what the majority of the forum members do. So many started over a year ago and
    grew with this forum, learning from people like you. I had no idea what Linux was, now have a great grasp.

    But there are still people buying the Pre/Pixi, becoming newbies on the forum, and going through the learning curve the rest of us did a year ago. And I see so many recognzed members chiming in, I do also, to help.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by nmoreman View Post
    My expectation is that experienced users such as yourself pitch in and summarise the information for the new users. Perhaps that is an unrealistic expectation for this community ...

    Rod,
    I read, heed, and appreciate everything you and your fellow cohorts have done to work with Palm, even gain acceptance from them. Hell, I wish they would hire you and pay you for the work you do.

    However, this comment - I hope you were tired when you wrote it. I do heartily think that is what the majority of the forum members do. So many started over a year ago and
    grew with this forum, learning from people like you. I had no idea what Linux was, now have a great grasp.

    But there are still people buying the Pre/Pixi, becoming newbies on the forum, and going through the learning curve the rest of us did a year ago. And I see so many recognzed members chiming in, I do also, to help.
    You are indeed correct that many community members are going beyond the call of duty to help new members.

    My hope was that there would be a more organised method of collating the information, and then helping new members would simply be pointing them to these ever improving collations, instead of continuing to spread snippets across an ever increasing set of disparate forum posts.

    So I absolutely applaud the effort that people are expending to assist, and my hope is that some of the experienced members will step up even further to the next level of organising the information into centralised collations ...

    -- Rod
  19. #39  
    rod--is there an app out there that can auto luna reboot at a certain time? I have preset reset, but that does a full reboot.



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  20. rkguy's Avatar
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    #40  
    nabril: preset reset is best run at night when time to boot is unimportant. Luna reset can be done from the newer preware menus and from the luna manager app. Luna restarts clears tmc errors everytime for me and generally fixes almost any problem I have. I do remember having a prob where the video app didn't see my videos and that did require a full reboot but any other prob I had was fixed w a luna restart.
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