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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by VeeDubb65 View Post
    No. I believe in capitalism. If people actually care about this, and it's not just a fringe minority of whiney nut-jobs, then people will stop doing business with Verizon and they will start to change their practices.
    Capitalism does not preclude legal actions in civil court -- in fact, civil court and contract enforcement (including enforcement of the warranty of merchantability) is a fundamental bedrock of a good free enterprise system. A system where fraud or deliberate misdeed is only punished by "fool me once, shame on you" is an environment that would make poor conduct profitable.

    I stopped doing business with Microsoft years ago, and while they still hold the largest market share, they've been hemorrhaging market share to Mac and Linux for several years.
    From 2000 to 2010, Microsoft has PLUMMETED from 96% global desktop marketshare to a mere 94% of share. Macintosh is under 2% global share, and Linux cannot even make it to 1% share on the desktop.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    in fact, civil court and contract enforcement (including enforcement of the warranty of merchantability) is a fundamental bedrock of a good free enterprise system.
    I find that belief to be deeply disturbing, and I'm not joking about that. Those things are NOT the bedrock of free enterprise. They are the checks and balances for when free enterprise fails. The whole point of FREE enterprise is FREEdom.

    The FREEDOM to sell what you want and buy what you want, will lead to the best products and services rising to the top. Nothing more, nothing less.

    It is economic democracy. Every man woman and child, votes with every dollar they spend. You want to vote against verizon? Cancel your contract and switch to Sprint or wait a month or two and switch to ATT.

    The majority will win.


    Quote Originally Posted by brmiller1976 View Post
    From 2000 to 2010, Microsoft has PLUMMETED from 96% global desktop marketshare to a mere 94% of share. Macintosh is under 2% global share, and Linux cannot even make it to 1% share on the desktop.
    At the risk of dragging this off topic, those numbers are questionable at best. I have seen so called studies that places linux market share anywhere between 0.05% (one twentieth of a percent) to over 10% Both extremes are clearly unreasonable.

    1. Global market share is not a relevant part of the discussion, because there are plenty of microsoft products in plenty of not so free markets. There are countries, especially some of the developing second world nations, where linux and microsoft are about equal, and nobody would even consider mac due to the inflated cost. To be realistic, you need to either look at domestic market share, or only market share in free market "1st world" countries. US, CAN, AU, UK, EU nations, etc.

    2. The 94% market share you claim for windows is based on the fact that 94% of new computers are sold with Windows pre-installed. This has absolutely no baring on actual usage numbers, and is one of the things that has kept microsoft's market share and profit margins as high as they are. It's virtually impossible to buy a new computer without paying the microsoft tax, which is a perfect example of a failure in the free market, which there have been lawsuits related to.

    3. Some of the more reasonable studies I have seen for US market share, based on things like poling data or browser agent reporting, put windows around 90%, mac with 4-6%, linux with 2-4%, and the remainder being made up of assorted legacy operating systems. Of course, that's not counting the ever growing market for embedded linux devices............

    4. Even if your numbers were correct, which I doubt they are, a drop from 96% to 94% would be an alarming trend. When you look at more realistic numbers, and find a drop more like 98% to 90%, it should be highly alarming, and clearly is based on many of their actions in recent years.

    5. There's a lot more to the operating system competition than just the desktop market. Web servers, file servers, mail servers, dedicated network distribution servers, media servers, baskin robin's 31 flavors of servers. Microsoft has a very small market share in most of them. There are a few, like their enterprise class exchange servers, which have a massive market share because they are really good at what they do. And then there are web servers, of which a laughably small percentage are run on windows. The 1600 employee company I work for, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in IT equipment, is seriously considering a move to either linux or a closed source commercial unix in the next five years due to a never ending stream of virus and security problems. THAT is voting with your dollars.
  3.    #63  
    hmmm..... Looks like Verizon is starting to admit to it:

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...ml#post2424334
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by blueray View Post
    hmmm..... Looks like Verizon is starting to admit to it:

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...ml#post2424334

    Read further down in that thread -- what I believe to be happening is that VZW is blocking A-GPS, not GPS. A-GPS is utilized to make getting a lock on location via true GPS more quickly. There is NOTHING anywhere that says VZW has to provide A-GPS (that I know of).

    However, if you purchase VZ-Navigator this will utilize A-GPS to get your fix and if you call 911 it will use A-GPS.
  5. #65  
    Apparently there has already been a class-action lawsuit against them about this in the past. I just found this on wikipedia. (I searched "verizon limiting gps access on phones" on google.)

    "GPS disabling of certain devices

    Verizon no longer restricts or disables GPS Chips in their phones. However, in previous years, Verizon had a history of restricting GPS functionality on many of the devices that they sell. On November 30, 2007 Verizon Wireless was named in a class action lawsuit alleging that the company deceived customers by advertising that the devices were "GPS Enabled." Upon purchase, the suit alleges that Verizon intentionally disabled the devices' free, built-in global positioning systems (GPS) then offered a proprietary Verizon fee-for-service GPS.[27]

    Since this dispute, all smartphones sold on the Verizon network have their GPS receivers unlocked by default. Select older devices can be unlocked with a firmware upgrade. Phone hackers were able to restore GPS access to some older models which did not receive firmware updates."



    My guess is Verizon is trying to be sneaky here because afterall, the Pre Plus isn't very popular and already has bad publicity going for it. For them to disable gps only adds fuel to the fire and most customers will probably assume this Palm's "poor quality" fault instead of Verizon's.

    As such, we can definitely act on this and get it resolved! I love my Pre Plus, but I'm sooo tired of having my gps crippled.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by cr_8_tiv View Post
    Apparently there has already been a class-action lawsuit against them about this in the past. I just found this on wikipedia. (I searched "verizon limiting gps access on phones" on google.)

    "GPS disabling of certain devices

    Verizon no longer restricts or disables GPS Chips in their phones. However, in previous years, Verizon had a history of restricting GPS functionality on many of the devices that they sell. On November 30, 2007 Verizon Wireless was named in a class action lawsuit alleging that the company deceived customers by advertising that the devices were "GPS Enabled." Upon purchase, the suit alleges that Verizon intentionally disabled the devices' free, built-in global positioning systems (GPS) then offered a proprietary Verizon fee-for-service GPS.[27]

    Since this dispute, all smartphones sold on the Verizon network have their GPS receivers unlocked by default. Select older devices can be unlocked with a firmware upgrade. Phone hackers were able to restore GPS access to some older models which did not receive firmware updates."



    My guess is Verizon is trying to be sneaky here because afterall, the Pre Plus isn't very popular and already has bad publicity going for it. For them to disable gps only adds fuel to the fire and most customers will probably assume this Palm's "poor quality" fault instead of Verizon's.

    As such, we can definitely act on this and get it resolved! I love my Pre Plus, but I'm sooo tired of having my gps crippled.
    Again, they are allowing GPS, they might not be allowing A-GPS. Read this article on what A-GPS is and how it affects GPS of cell phones: Assisted GPS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The quick and dirty answer is without A-GPS it can "rendering them unable to function until a clear signal can be received continuously for up to 40 seconds". Getting a continuously received signal for 40 seconds on a cell phone can be difficult as it does not have the power that things like GPS systems made for cars.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by blueray View Post
    hmmm..... Looks like Verizon is starting to admit to it:

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...ml#post2424334
    now i am not saying that just because the guy has 1 post it makes his comment unreliable but -come on a guy with one post writes a post about a conversation that may or may not have happened and now it is a viable reference -- whatever
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rob Chilcott

    Twitter @robchilcott
    pre2
    " I am only a stupid electrician after all"

    My house is a webOS house
    My pre 2, Touchpad 32g
    Wife Pixi, touchpad 32gb
    Daughter -- my old pre+
    of course my 16 year old son has and droid incredible but i think i remeber finding him on the porch
  8. #68  
    Even so, Verizon doesn't have the right to disable any built-in feature in the phone. Or can they?
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by cr_8_tiv View Post
    Even so, Verizon doesn't have the right to disable any built-in feature in the phone. Or can they?
    A-GPS is not a feature of the phone -- GPS is. A-GPS is a feature of the carrier's cell towers that GPS can utilize. To my understanding, A-GPS is like a "cheat sheet" that the cell towers get from the assistance server and gives to the phone, the phone then hands this information to the GPS chip to make it smarter in how it determines a lock on location.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by cr_8_tiv View Post
    Even so, Verizon doesn't have the right to disable any built-in feature in the phone. Or can they?
    They have the right to enable or disable any feature they darn well please, with the exception of certain legally mandated features such as the ability to dial 911 on roaming or after a service disconnect, and the GPS functionality required for emergency services to locate a wireless caller.

    Whether or not the manufacturer intended something to be an included feature is irrelevant. The issue is whether they did so dishonestly. Or in other words, whether or not they claimed the device had a feature which they were disabling.
  11. #71  
    Ahh, ok. So it appears that the gps in a phone is near useless without assistance from cell towers? I can't get a fix on my location anywhere, and often times its reporting where I was from the night before.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by VeeDubb65 View Post
    They have the right to enable or disable any feature they darn well please, with the exception of certain legally mandated features such as the ability to dial 911 on roaming or after a service disconnect, and the GPS functionality required for emergency services to locate a wireless caller.

    Whether or not the manufacturer intended something to be an included feature is irrelevant. The issue is whether they did so dishonestly. Or in other words, whether or not they claimed the device had a feature which they were disabling.
    That makes sense. So, I went ahead and checked to see what was being advertised on the Verizon wireless website and sure enough, it mentions explicitly in bold in the details section that it has both assisted and standalone gps.

    Last I checked, there was no mention of having to pay for access to any gps feature other than the VZ navigator service.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by cr_8_tiv View Post
    That makes sense. So, I went ahead and checked to see what was being advertised on the Verizon wireless website and sure enough, it mentions explicitly in bold in the details section that it has both assisted and standalone gps.

    Last I checked, there was no mention of having to pay for access to any gps feature other than the VZ navigator service.

    Well, I guess technically it does have A-GPS, but it doesn't say it has to share that data with GPS applications other than VZ Navigator and the phone app when you dial 911.
  14. #74  
    Yeah, cause this is what we in the U.S. need... more lawsuits...

    I have a VZW Pre+, and I have the GPS issue as well, and it is infuriating, but come on, we don't even know if it's intentional or unintentional. You can't just sue on something like this... there's no proof. To be blunt, this is just a bulls**t lawsuit.
  15. #75  
    I did a little more testing with the gps vz nav goggle and google services.

    with fresh boot with google services off it takes google and other 3rd party apps about 2+ mins to grab a spot on lock. While it takes vz nav about 30secs or less to get a lock.

    When I turn on google services I get a lock faster but it's off about a mile. And is never accurate until vz nav is booted up.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by wxman2003 View Post
    This whole country has become lawsuit happy. I hope it fails.
    Ditto
    Remember: "Opinions are like @ssholes, we all have them, and they all stink"
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by hoo.haaa View Post
    So you have a group of attorneys ready to fight this case tooth and nail for the next few years, and they are fine with not receiving any compensation immediately? Also they will prove that enough financial harm was done on all the plaintiffs to profit from this? Seriously you are living in a dream world.
    To get in touch with our "dream world" Oquin Lawfirm and Caddel Chapman are both actively looking into this, among a couple others. I myself have kinda dropped the class action side as they include an arbitration document in our not quite contract, but notice or something. Bottom line, it makes it hard to go to a judge, but getting compensation is still very plausible. However, I plan on hitting them up directly as they clearly breached my contract with them. Our individual cases would hurt them more, but by the sounds of things on this site, only maybe a couple people are upset they are getting farked in the bung hole. I guess the rest of you like it that way....
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Seb_or_Sam View Post
    Yeah, cause this is what we in the U.S. need... more lawsuits...

    I have a VZW Pre+, and I have the GPS issue as well, and it is infuriating, but come on, we don't even know if it's intentional or unintentional. You can't just sue on something like this... there's no proof. To be blunt, this is just a bulls**t lawsuit.
    Corporate office just called me yesterday saying they know of this issue and it will NOT be fixed on Palm devices. She stated this clear as day. Then dropped a 10% discount on my accounts with these phones and wanted my feedback. I told her I wanted my Pre with GPS like they sold it to me or void my contract with Verizon. I am to be getting a call back about this tomorrow supposedly and will update, if I can still post to this site... mods hate me.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by RetarTed View Post
    Corporate office just called me yesterday saying they know of this issue and it will NOT be fixed on Palm devices. She stated this clear as day. Then dropped a 10% discount on my accounts with these phones and wanted my feedback. I told her I wanted my Pre with GPS like they sold it to me or void my contract with Verizon. I am to be getting a call back about this tomorrow supposedly and will update, if I can still post to this site... mods hate me.
    not just the mods....................................kidding. Look to prove any case you would have to prove intent - i think - i am an electrician not a lawyer -- but i don't believe that you can. in my opinion the problem with your GPS stems from a programming snafu not an intentional act -- i think that some aps like uhoh VZ nav but also trapster and some others are better at waking up the chipset -- they have done something to save battery and farked? the GPS. go to this thread
    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...ed-cached.html
    do the QPSt thing it will bring your GPS to 90 percent or better -- i personally am tired of this whole issue -- my GPS works great -- don't bother replying to me here as i am unsubscribing from this thread and any others like it.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rob Chilcott

    Twitter @robchilcott
    pre2
    " I am only a stupid electrician after all"

    My house is a webOS house
    My pre 2, Touchpad 32g
    Wife Pixi, touchpad 32gb
    Daughter -- my old pre+
    of course my 16 year old son has and droid incredible but i think i remeber finding him on the porch
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    #80  
    Verizon (or Networks in Motion, makers of VZ Navigator) is not providing aGPS data to the Palm Pre, for whatever reason. Advertising the capabilities of the phone as having aGPS is not false advertising. The phone is capable of utilizing aGPS data to acquire a fast GPS lock. Verizon/NIM is simply choosing not to provide this through their network without a paid subscription. That's like being mad at your new satellite radio because you couldn't get any music without a subscription. Is it unethical of Verizon not to plainly state this? Yes. Illegal? No.

    Now, if some other company large enough to acquire and provide this data were to come along, the Pre is capable of receiving and utilizing it. So why do phones running AndroidOS get aGPS service without hassle? Well, I can think of one company "affiliated with" Android that just might be large enough and powerful enough to be providing their own aGPS data...
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