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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by mespiff View Post
    I have a feeling you are pointing at me with this post. Maybe not as i don't feel that i am a verizon defender only that to me and the people that i deal with face to face do not exibit the problems that you and the other people in this thread are so vocal about -- the numbers don't add up to me there are maybe less then a hundred vocal people writing about this issue and to me that is a very small number of people when you look at the numbers of these phones in peoples hands -- i bought a V710 the day it came out and remember the numbers of people that were complaining about the BT being crippled -- the big difference there was that EVERY SINGLE V710 WORKED IN THE SAME WAY and to the best of my knowledge with the BB that was suffering from crippled GPS there too every single phone exibited the same symptoms where as here there are only a few or some or 1/2 who knows the numbers but some work and some don't -- if this was something done by palm or verizon or google then all phones would exibit the same behavior would they not - - rather then something else -- maybe a hardware issue? or something in the stacks? -- what i am saying is not that your Pre + is not misfunctiioning rather that i personally feel that you are barking up the wrong tree saying that it is an intentional problem. you are wasting your and other peoples time here when to me logic points else where. and to say that on every single sprint or GSM companies pre the GPS works flawlessly is misinformation as well as there are numerous threads about sprint GPS being flawed long before the PRE + ever even made it to verizon - it is good to let verizon know that they have a problem with the phone but a silly waste of time to propogate these conspiracy theories

    just MHO
    I wasn't pointing at you specifically. You probably have some of the most logical arguments among others around here and you usually have a helping attitude instead of dissing people who have problems.

    You say it's good to let Verizon know that they have a problem with the phone but it's a waste of time to propagate conspiracy theories but please tell me: If you were in the same boat as people with GPS problems and if both Palm and Verizon acted as if there is absolutely nothing wrong with GPS and if all the phones you swapped/exchanged carried the same problem and if VZ Navigator was the only way to get things working (at least for a short while or so), how else would you explain what's going on here ? People are left in the cold by Verizon and Palm on this issue, so they are naturally trying to find a logical explanation to this problem. Given Verizon's bad track record with GPSs in the past and how they had Blackberry's GPS locked for quite a while before opening it up (and publicly saying so when they did) I think it's quite normal for people to propagate conspiracy theories.

    Btw, I did read your post in the other GPS thread suggesting that starting VZ Navigator might be the core of the problem in the first place... I can tell you this, that that wasn't so on the two brand new Pre+s I had on Verizon. In fact with the second one, we took it out of the box and I immediately popped open Google Maps, right out of the box, right after activation and showed to Verizon sales people that it didn't work. So there goes one theory.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Have you selected "GPS Only" as the choice for "locate me"?

    I can't see what is written on your t-shirt, so I'm looking for the specifics of "done that". Thanks!
    Sorry Yes the Shirt says

    in Preference > Locate me using... the only thing check is GPS

    Autolocate = off

    with VZ navigator started (but not subscribed to) I get within feet it gives a range of 1014 - 1046 (i'm actually at 1100 but the building is big and i'm only a few feet away from where is says) if i were to show you on a map (google) of where it places me compared to where I am you'd be amazed and the difference VZ being on does vs not being on. willing to send people who don't believe the coords from the app on the difference in a pm
    Last edited by Major Payne; 05/04/2010 at 12:32 PM.
    In a world of droid, Pre does it better.

    Shouldn't we treat this world like the Garden of Eden and avoid the apple at all costs?
  3. #43  
    Not to stir the pot, but I have a question and a few observations.

    First, does Verizon actually say anywhere that the standalone GPS is 100% fully functional, all options included, and free? Because I can't find it.

    As for observations... looking at the details/feature/capabilities for the Pre+ on Verizon, it lists both assisted/standalone GPS and VZW Navigator capable. If the standalone GPS were 100% capable on its own, there would be no need for Navigator, therefore no need to list it in the features/capabilities.

    As for the possibilities of a lawsuit... fine print is there for exactly that reason... to prevent lawsuits.

    On the Verizon page for the Pre:
    Device capabilities: add'l charges & conditions apply. Offers & coverage, varying by service, not available everywhere. Some applications not available at this time.
    And on the Palm page for the Pre:
    Palm® phones come with built-in GPS, so apps like Google Maps™ can pinpoint your location and help you find places of interest around you. The closest restaurant, for example. You can get directions from point A to point B, switch to satellite view, or see current traffic conditions with a simple tap.1
    Notice the "1", which points to the fine print.

    1. Within wireless coverage area only. Voice-activated, as-you-go, turn-by-turn directions sold separately.
    "Within wireless coverage area only" means assisted GPS, using cell towers. There is no need to be in a wireless coverage area if the GPS is functioning via GPS satellites.

    These are the things that pretty much negate any possibility of a lawsuit, unless you can find documentation which clearly states that the answer to the above question is "yes."


    *edit* unrelated content, but the concept (fine print) still applies.

    Regarding the Free 3G Mobile Hotspot. Yes, they make it fairly clear (if you look a little) that there is a 5GB/month limit on the free aspect... but how many people keep looking past, into the fine print, and see this?

    When your smartphone is connected using 3G Mobile Hotspot, all data sent or received by your smartphone (including data sent or received by any Wi-Fi devices connected to it, or by your smartphone itself) will be billed according to your 3G Mobile Hotspot feature, and not according to your smartphone data feature.
    So when your 3G Mobile Hotspot is active, your $29.99/month unlimited data does not apply, as ALL data usage during that time is applied toward the 5GB limit. How many people do you suppose will drastically exceed that limit during their first month? Say you exceed it by only 100MB... that's an extra $200 on the next phone bill and, of course, the first response would be to storm into a Verizon office and demand to see a manager. But it's all right there in the fine print if people would simply bother to read, rather than surf on by riding on their assumptions and expectations.
    Last edited by ScorpionSoul; 05/04/2010 at 12:59 PM.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by cgokcea View Post
    I wasn't pointing at you specifically. You probably have some of the most logical arguments among others around here and you usually have a helping attitude instead of dissing people who have problems.

    You say it's good to let Verizon know that they have a problem with the phone but it's a waste of time to propagate conspiracy theories but please tell me: If you were in the same boat as people with GPS problems and if both Palm and Verizon acted as if there is absolutely nothing wrong with GPS and if all the phones you swapped/exchanged carried the same problem and if VZ Navigator was the only way to get things working (at least for a short while or so), how else would you explain what's going on here ? People are left in the cold by Verizon and Palm on this issue, so they are naturally trying to find a logical explanation to this problem. Given Verizon's bad track record with GPSs in the past and how they had Blackberry's GPS locked for quite a while before opening it up (and publicly saying so when they did) I think it's quite normal for people to propagate conspiracy theories.

    Btw, I did read your post in the other GPS thread suggesting that starting VZ Navigator might be the core of the problem in the first place... I can tell you this, that that wasn't so on the two brand new Pre+s I had on Verizon. In fact with the second one, we took it out of the box and I immediately popped open Google Maps, right out of the box, right after activation and showed to Verizon sales people that it didn't work. So there goes one theory.
    ok good now in that other thread have you read the bit about maybe the 3g conflicting and that if connected to a wifi network -better GPS signal might be possible? if not please experiment and let us know.

    I do understand what people are saying -- when 1.4 came out they killed all headless aps at 12 seconds which killed - where is my pre -- i was very frustrated by that -- i guess that what i feel is that some -- not you -- are focusing on the wrong thing -- maybe through a conversation we can identify the root cause of the issue and fix it with the communities support -- i am not a dev and cannot hope to find the physical solution but there is a chance that conversations here might lead the right person to a solution for all. i guess that is my point

    thanks
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rob Chilcott

    Twitter @robchilcott
    pre2
    " I am only a stupid electrician after all"

    My house is a webOS house
    My pre 2, Touchpad 32g
    Wife Pixi, touchpad 32gb
    Daughter -- my old pre+
    of course my 16 year old son has and droid incredible but i think i remeber finding him on the porch
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpionSoul View Post
    Not to stir the pot, but I have a question and a few observations.

    First, does Verizon actually say anywhere that the standalone GPS is 100% fully functional, all options included, and free? Because I can't find it.

    As for observations... looking at the details/feature/capabilities for the Pre+ on Verizon, it lists both assisted/standalone GPS and VZW Navigator capable. If the standalone GPS were 100% capable on its own, there would be no need for Navigator, therefore no need to list it in the features/capabilities.

    As for the possibilities of a lawsuit... fine print is there for exactly that reason... to prevent lawsuits.

    On the Verizon page for the Pre:


    And on the Palm page for the Pre:


    Notice the "1", which points to the fine print.



    "Within wireless coverage area only" means assisted GPS, using cell towers. There is no need to be in a wireless coverage area if the GPS is functioning via GPS satellites.

    These are the things that pretty much negate any possibility of a lawsuit, unless you can find documentation which clearly states that the answer to the above question is "yes."


    *edit* unrelated content, but the concept (fine print) still applies.

    Regarding the Free 3G Mobile Hotspot. Yes, they make it fairly clear (if you look a little) that there is a 5GB/month limit on the free aspect... but how many people keep looking past, into the fine print, and see this?



    So when your 3G Mobile Hotspot is active, your $29.99/month unlimited data does not apply, as ALL data usage during that time is applied toward the 5GB limit. How many people do you suppose will drastically exceed that limit during their first month? Say you exceed it by only 100MB... that's an extra $200 on the next phone bill and, of course, the first response would be to storm into a Verizon office and demand to see a manager. But it's all right there in the fine print if people would simply bother to read, rather than surf on by riding on their assumptions and expectations.
    Fine print does not absolve a company of all responsibility.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpionSoul View Post



    So when your 3G Mobile Hotspot is active, your $29.99/month unlimited data does not apply, as ALL data usage during that time is applied toward the 5GB limit. How many people do you suppose will drastically exceed that limit during their first month? Say you exceed it by only 100MB... that's an extra $200 on the next phone bill and, of course, the first response would be to storm into a Verizon office and demand to see a manager. But it's all right there in the fine print if people would simply bother to read, rather than surf on by riding on their assumptions and expectations.
    FYI, Any data going to the phone is part of the unlimited plan. That includes anyone usint MyTether or FreeTether, because they look like a phone user to Verizon. Any web, email, or app traffic from the phone is unlimited. Period.

    The only thing that counts to your 5GB is for traffic to a device connected to the mobile hotspot app via wifi. Period.

    Personally, I think that's one reason why Verizon stopped charging for mobile hotspot. It was too easy to use a free alternative that couldn't be subjected to the cap built in to the mobile hotspot app...
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Speebs View Post
    Fine print does not absolve a company of all responsibility.
    How does it not in this case? Palm, the manufacturer of the phone, explicitly states that the GPS requires that you be within the wireless coverage area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    FYI, Any data going to the phone is part of the unlimited plan.
    That may be true, but it's not what the disclaimer says. "All data sent or received by your smartphone..."
    Last edited by ScorpionSoul; 05/04/2010 at 01:37 PM.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Kudos to jhodnettejr. He is doing some great work to identify where the problem is rather than just whining about Verizon.

    Has everyone tried these recommendations? I think everyone needs to do this and report back to the appropriate GPS thread with their results:
    kudod should not be going to anyone, this verizon/palms problem they are the ones who shoul be fixing it.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by reidoreilly View Post
    kudod should not be going to anyone, this verizon/palms problem they are the ones who shoul be fixing it.
    gps problems and a bad keyboard too -- bummer
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rob Chilcott

    Twitter @robchilcott
    pre2
    " I am only a stupid electrician after all"

    My house is a webOS house
    My pre 2, Touchpad 32g
    Wife Pixi, touchpad 32gb
    Daughter -- my old pre+
    of course my 16 year old son has and droid incredible but i think i remeber finding him on the porch
  10. #50  
    Really I understand the argument... Just not the mentality!

    If I buy a car that the engine may fall out of according to reports and it falls out... Who do I blame?

    In anything of any value you may buy should be subject to research. My phone is on the way and I am expecting nothing from the GPS. Why you may ask? Because I did some reading about the phone! Will I try it? Yes! Expect much? No!

    This is the danger in buying anything. There is no "perfect" device or otherwise in the world (except my wife maybe ). Early adopters always take a risk and is no excuse.

    I'm a Verizon customer...YES! But, I am first and foremost someone whom did research! I would not join in this lawsuit!
  11. #51  
    These arguments both have some merit but the laws of the respective jurisdictions address them. For the most part, the standard is "buyer beware". However, a buyer is allowed to rely upon any representations made by the seller at the time of sale, especially in the case of technology, where the typical buyer is relying upon the seller's expertise. As for the fine print. Fine print will help verizon, but is not going to be prohibitive in any lawsuit as this type of language is often considered "boilerplate". Meaning it is a term that was not negotiated and a situation where the two parties were not on equal footing to negotiate in any event (try to negotiate a term with Verizon, I challenge you).

    Finally, for the most part there is no legal requirement that damages be "substantial". If there are economic damages, there is a right to recovery. Many class action law suits settle for a few dollars per plaintiff (and the only one that profits significantly is the attorney". That being said, they can be very effective at sending a message to a large company.

    Lastly, legal talk aside, all of this is absurdly premature without any credible basis to think Verizon did anything wrong, but I must admit that most of the people in this forum are smarter than me when it comes to the tech stuff.
  12. #52  
    so if it happens and you win, a $5.00 off certificate with the purchase of Pre 3. Fight the Power!
  13. #53  
    Here is what I see as the outcome:

    You win... YAY!

    Now Verizon does some thinking and comes to the conclusion that this phone has cost to much and pulls it.

    Face it, sales have not been that big (the daddy of Verizon is Android at the moment), they are giving away free hotspot ($40 value), just lost money in a suit and may even be forced to include VZ navigator on the device from the courts ($10 value).

    So they pull it!

    Now because some did not want to do some research we all suffer! It's called accountabilty (this could swing both ways), you are accountable for what you buy! Plain and simple! Don't ruin it for me, someone whom has no problem with reading and doing research!
  14.    #54  
    It's incredible how many people just do not comprehend or read much. There is absolutely nothing in this post or even the one on the Palm forum that states this is definitely happening. All that is going on is people are collecting names. It says POSSIBLE, not definite. If nothing can be proven, then a lawsuit cannot happen. These are the first steps in moving forward.

    @wxman2003 and all others who are adamantly aggravated for absolutely no reason at all, go educate yourselves on how laws work and stop with your own whining. I repeat, if Verizon did block the GPS, then they are at fault. END OF STORY. If not, then we move on.

    You guys need to relax. The only ones getting worked up here are yourselves. If you don't want to participate, then take care.
  15. #55  
    ive been studying law after the bank stole my house and the rule is.......

    -all those agreements not to 'arbitrate/litigate" are void if there's a suspiscion of fraud/wilfull intent to mislead customer for financial gain....
    Cat up a Treo (now on the Pre, yo!)
    Creepycat at Creepycast Podcast

    Palm user since "the one after the pilot" and still horde a drawer full of pda models as well as cradles and fold up keyboards because i was too greedy to let them "go" when they could have "went".
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by corbintechboy View Post
    Here is what I see as the outcome:

    You win... YAY!

    Now Verizon does some thinking and comes to the conclusion that this phone has cost to much and pulls it.

    Face it, sales have not been that big (the daddy of Verizon is Android at the moment), they are giving away free hotspot ($40 value), just lost money in a suit and may even be forced to include VZ navigator on the device from the courts ($10 value).

    So they pull it!

    Now because some did not want to do some research we all suffer! It's called accountabilty (this could swing both ways), you are accountable for what you buy! Plain and simple! Don't ruin it for me, someone whom has no problem with reading and doing research!
    im thinking that if V decides they cant afford the pre on their network they will stop offering it but they arent going to tell existing pre owners that they arent allowed to use it anymore.

    am i right in this theory Pre-ple?
    Cat up a Treo (now on the Pre, yo!)
    Creepycat at Creepycast Podcast

    Palm user since "the one after the pilot" and still horde a drawer full of pda models as well as cradles and fold up keyboards because i was too greedy to let them "go" when they could have "went".
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by corbintechboy View Post
    Really I understand the argument... Just not the mentality!

    If I buy a car that the engine may fall out of according to reports and it falls out... Who do I blame?

    In anything of any value you may buy should be subject to research. My phone is on the way and I am expecting nothing from the GPS. Why you may ask? Because I did some reading about the phone! Will I try it? Yes! Expect much? No!

    This is the danger in buying anything. There is no "perfect" device or otherwise in the world (except my wife maybe ). Early adopters always take a risk and is no excuse.

    I'm a Verizon customer...YES! But, I am first and foremost someone whom did research! I would not join in this lawsuit!
    I have done more then enough research about palm pre plus. Did you see a GPS being an option which requires monthly subscription?.You will care when most of new apps require true gps to function.... A SMARTPHONE WITHOUT GPS IS NOT ANY BETTER THEN A DUMBPHONE WITH APPS.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by wildxconfusion View Post
    I have done more then enough research about palm pre plus. Did you see a GPS being an option which requires monthly subscription?.You will care when most of new apps require true gps to function.... A SMARTPHONE WITHOUT GPS IS NOT ANY BETTER THEN A DUMBPHONE WITH APPS.
    That's your opinion and your entitled to it!

    Still, excuses no one from not doing homework before buying a device!
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by creepycat View Post
    im thinking that if V decides they cant afford the pre on their network they will stop offering it but they arent going to tell existing pre owners that they arent allowed to use it anymore.

    am i right in this theory Pre-ple?
    You would be correct.

    But, if they do decide to pull the device they can decide to never bring another device back from HPalm and that would be a punishment for us whom love the device.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by wildxconfusion View Post
    I have done more then enough research about palm pre plus. Did you see a GPS being an option which requires monthly subscription?.You will care when most of new apps require true gps to function.... A SMARTPHONE WITHOUT GPS IS NOT ANY BETTER THEN A DUMBPHONE WITH APPS.


    i agree that is why i am happy that my GPS works
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rob Chilcott

    Twitter @robchilcott
    pre2
    " I am only a stupid electrician after all"

    My house is a webOS house
    My pre 2, Touchpad 32g
    Wife Pixi, touchpad 32gb
    Daughter -- my old pre+
    of course my 16 year old son has and droid incredible but i think i remeber finding him on the porch
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