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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Well, partially because of EVO, but mainly because a big chunk of Pre owners will be eligible for upgrade to anything they want.

    It's another potential big loss for Palm.
    Waitaminnit now, gotta clear this one up.

    First, I disagree that there will be a "huge drop" relatively speaking. I think there may be a huge drop on here, and likely will be a huge drop amont the more vocal folks on here, but the vast majority of Palm owners are really pretty satisified with it the way it is. I don't see a big turnover for them, unless something pretty amazing comes along.

    However, that's not really a "big loss", unless they end up selling those phones to others that might have otherwise bought a new Palm device. Palm's already made their money off those devices. They don't have to give it back if someone switches to a different device.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by VickMackey View Post
    Unless Palm gets bought out by someone huge, those that leave likely won't be returning to Palm anytime soon
    I don't understand what a buyout has to do with anyone upgrading. If Palm release's a new device, and it's good, no one will care about a buyout, at least not the standard consumer.
  3. #23  
    I got my pre on ebay new (turned out to be a mint refurb) but was only $280 if I recall (didn't extend my contract obviously)...I am due in June or July for my new phone, and I think I'll keep this one in hopes of a new Palm Device (pre2 I hope). But if that doesnt happen, I like my pre so much I can't see going with an Android device....but my friend on verizons getting a Incredible so I'm gonna play with that and get a feel for Android more.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyricci View Post
    I don't understand what a buyout has to do with anyone upgrading. If Palm release's a new device, and it's good, no one will care about a buyout, at least not the standard consumer.
    Exactly, I started to reply with the same thing, but decided "what's the point".

    I do agree with him that Palm is going to have come out with some impressive new hardware, probably before the end of the year, but it won't matter who owns them when they do. If it's good, people will buy it. If not, they won't.
  5. #25  
    Wrong, The Pre is good, but Palm didn't have the resources or the vision to make it a commercial success. That lack of commercial success has relegated the Pre to also-ran status. Why would anyone trust Palm to succeed with a better device where they have failed with the Pre? Unless they have major financial backing + a new device.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by VickMackey View Post
    Wrong, The Pre is good, but Palm didn't have the resources or the vision to make it a commercial success. That lack of commercial success has relegated the Pre to also-ran status. Why would anyone trust Palm to succeed with a better device where they have failed with the Pre? Unless they have major financial backing + a new device.
    3 of my friends have recently purchased phones. None of them cared what devices rim, palm or HTC sold last year. Each of them had contracted or prepaid feature phones before then.... They said they liked the form factor, color and price of the devices they purchased.
    Your reading into this a bit much, yes?
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


    PM me your questions, If I cant find an answer, I'll show you who can.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by VickMackey View Post
    Wrong, The Pre is good, but Palm didn't have the resources or the vision to make it a commercial success. That lack of commercial success has relegated the Pre to also-ran status. Why would anyone trust Palm to succeed with a better device where they have failed with the Pre? Unless they have major financial backing + a new device.
    Wrong. Palm was facing almost certain closure before the Pre came out. The Pre was a total departure from anything they had ever done. The same type of folks would trust Palm releasing the Pre will trust them a better device. Maybe not the same people, but the same type of people.

    Also noted - there is nothing (except a few naysayers) indicating Palm "failed" with the Pre (and Pixi). They were facing almost certain extinction. Now they are not. That is arguably success.

    One more note - I find some weird satisfaction that this is my 5,000th post
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    3 of my friends have recently purchased phones. None of them cared what devices rim, palm or HTC sold last year. Each of them had contracted or prepaid feature phones before then.... They said they liked the form factor, color and price of the devices they purchased.
    Your reading into this a bit much, yes?
    i spoke with a friend last night, we were discussing phones, he has a droid, he told me he wouldn't consider getting a pre plus because of Palm's financial troubles and lack of commericial support. He also says he is dropping the droid for the VZW iphone when it drops.
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    ....One more note - I find some weird satisfaction that this is my 5,000th post
    Congrats! (even though i seldom agree with you)
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToniCipriani View Post
    Pre's actually free on 3 year. I just picked mine up 2 weeks ago when they started the $10 off with no activation, free 6 month unlimited local calling and free upgrade to 6 PM E-W.
    I'm paying:
    200 mins
    500MB data /w tethering
    6pm E-W
    Unlimited Text
    CID
    $47 + tax / month
    That's pretty comparable to my Fido retention plan which I gave up (minus I had 6GB instead on Fido, but I never used close to 300MB)

    I love my Pre but I hate Bell's CDMA network. Voice quality became better but I'm getting a lot more wierd network issues. My friends keep telling me they have been calling me but my phone never rang.

    I'm still eyeing that AT&T Pre Plus + unlock.
    Hmm...I see that they now have 2 year plans at Bell for the 99.99 cost. (Previous a 2 yr plan was $550 for the phone).
    Still that doesn't compare to the USA where the phones are 2 for 1 on a 2 year contract and at most $40 bucks total to buy the 1st phone. Not counting the fact they get a Pre Plus, whereas we get the original.

    My plan is a little more extensive than yours.
    450 mins local
    10 unlimited contacts across country
    5pm to 7am unlimited weekdays
    unlimited weekends
    unlimited data (real world limit is 5gb)
    tethering is NOT included (got my plan before they offered it)
    unlimited text
    insurance plan
    $104/month
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Waitaminnit now, gotta clear this one up.

    First, I disagree that there will be a "huge drop" relatively speaking. I think there may be a huge drop on here, and likely will be a huge drop amont the more vocal folks on here, but the vast majority of Palm owners are really pretty satisified with it the way it is. I don't see a big turnover for them, unless something pretty amazing comes along.

    However, that's not really a "big loss", unless they end up selling those phones to others that might have otherwise bought a new Palm device. Palm's already made their money off those devices. They don't have to give it back if someone switches to a different device.
    Well, retention is kinda irrelevant at this point anyway since the user base/sales base of WebOS devices is still way too small to sustain Palm for much longer. So a mass migration of customers for Evo or what have you is meaningless to the company's survival except in one aspect:

    If you can't retain even a relatively small mass of fans to your OS and devices, your long term survival is unlikely in the modern smartphone market. Palm hasn't shown they can do that, which is why their marketshare continues to fall more than WebOS can offset.

    Blackberry has an enterprise ecosystem and Blackberry Messaging to keep people hooked. Android has native Google functionality and Google apps like voice-activated nav and Goggles to keep people hooked. Now, most of their higher-end handsets like Nexus One, Droid, and Evo are getting car dock accessories to integrate even further. Apple has the App Store and iTunes.

    What does Palm have to keep people hooked on WebOS? Nothing. So WebOS customers will come and go as they please, and many will get snared by the aspects of other platforms that get their respective users hooked.

    That's not to say they couldn't develop such a thing. A line of TouchStone accessories was bandied about at one time, and it's still a good idea. An even better one is to bundle it with every WebOS device, no questions asked. Some native 3D games that use the gesture area and aren't easily portable to other platforms would also help. Maybe they're capable of executing this stuff. Maybe not at this point given their finances. But just spitting out another handset with upgraded specs and just a faster WebOS aint gonna do it.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Waitaminnit now, gotta clear this one up.

    First, I disagree that there will be a "huge drop" relatively speaking. I think there may be a huge drop on here, and likely will be a huge drop amont the more vocal folks on here, but the vast majority of Palm owners are really pretty satisified with it the way it is. I don't see a big turnover for them, unless something pretty amazing comes along.

    However, that's not really a "big loss", unless they end up selling those phones to others that might have otherwise bought a new Palm device. Palm's already made their money off those devices. They don't have to give it back if someone switches to a different device.
    In Canada, Palm is not being marketed or pushed enough. Unlike the USA, I fully expect Palm to continue losing Market share here, especially without a new product. And with the initial sale (last Sept for Canada) being a 3 year only plan at $200...they will have Pre users for at least another 2 years unless we bail and buy the contract out.

    Bell needs to be giving these away by the truckload (2 for 1) on a 2 year contract and 29.99 on a 1 year...maybe Palm would get some market share here. Right now they are becoming a has been/also ran.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Also noted - there is nothing (except a few naysayers) indicating Palm "failed" with the Pre (and Pixi). They were facing almost certain extinction. Now they are not. That is arguably success.
    For WebOS sales to do nothing but decline each quarter despite the devices becoming cheaper and far more widely available across the world kinda seems like a pretty reliable definition of failure to me. For Palm to project that that will not be changing for at least another 3-4 months, thereby making it one straight year of decline, seems like a fair and objective definition of failure.

    That they're not facing CERTAIN extinction - just likely - is not necessarily due to the Pre and Pixi's actual performance, but rather the pre-release buzz helping to inflate the stock so that they could convert that into cash along with direct infusion of capital from Elevation Partners.

    I mean, your last sentence reminds me of Eric Idle claiming "It's just a flesh wound!"

    Who but you and Ruby would argue that these handsets have been a success?
  14. #34  
    Clearly some of the individuals on here are the types who are never satisfied. I only switched from my Curve because it greatly limited some key things I needed. The Pre, stock (plus a couple of free programs from the official app catalog), does what I need. It's also fast enough (with the exception of Google maps, but there are alternatives to that one). I have yet to overclock it, though I have thought about doing it because I like speed (my PC CPU is overclocked). The Pre isn't perfect. No phone is. But it's a very nice phone with a gorgeous screen and operating system that gets a lot of attention when I show others (my Curve didn't get that "wow" factor).

    This EVO love is hilarious. You folks do realize that it's still an Android phone, with all the mix and match jumble of WinMo, right? You do realize that the form factor, being notably larger and not as smooth in the back, makes it a lot less comfortable in your pocket? Will probably need a larger case as well. So the camera has 8 megapixels. From an Engineer's standpoint, the trade off is obvious - more noise in low level lighting situations. More aberration and noise in outside shots with high light levels. You can only pack so big of a CCD and can only get so good of a picture out of a phone with such a small piece of glass (lens). This is why 3 megapixels is really just about the upper limit for quality. Beyond that it's only about resolution.

    For me, my Pre is all about the entire experience. From dropping it onto my touchstone (which just came in - yes!), to swiping away notifications, switching seamlessly between open apps, the great browser experience (including beautifully rendered fonts at many levels of zoom), to the feel of the device in my hand and pocket.

    To each his/her own, but I don't have any intentions of moving from this phone for quite some time, and will certainly be looking for a new WebOS Palm device when I do. I suspect that their is a greater percentage of Palm users like me, than of you folks (especially since less technical people aren't going to be hung up on some of the stuff you guys are). But I guess we'll see.

    I suspect Palm will be releasing a new device a couple of months after AT&T gets the Pre+ (which I expect to be start of next month), and that many carriers will get it this time around.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    For WebOS sales to do nothing but decline each quarter despite the devices becoming cheaper and far more widely available across the world kinda seems like a pretty reliable definition of failure to me. For Palm to project that that will not be changing for at least another 3-4 months, thereby making it one straight year of decline, seems like a fair and objective definition of failure.

    That they're not facing CERTAIN extinction - just likely - is not necessarily due to the Pre and Pixi's actual performance, but rather the pre-release buzz helping to inflate the stock so that they could convert that into cash along with direct infusion of capital from Elevation Partners.

    I mean, your last sentence reminds me of Eric Idle claiming "It's just a flesh wound!"

    Who but you and Ruby would argue that these handsets have been a success?
    Market share and sales are two different things. Palm can be selling more devices now than they have in many months and still lose market share. Why? Because the smart phone market is growing very fast, so Palm could be getting more and more sales, but not selling as fast as the market is growing. The market is only going to continue to grow. Those who think there is only room for 3 in a market that could grow from 100's of millions to a couple of billion in a couple of years, have another thing coming. Palm just needs to get enough phones sold (around 5-6 million) to get over the hump. Right now, they appear to be around 1 third of the way there. The upcoming launches (end of April and then AT&T) will probably add somewhere between 500k and 1.5M new WebOS users. Add a new phone 2 or 3 months later, and they might just reach critical mass.

    They aren't in trouble unless they fail to have at least 5 million users around October-November time frame. That's when I would start worrying about them.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap View Post
    Clearly some of the individuals on here are the types who are never satisfied. I only switched from my Curve because it greatly limited some key things I needed. The Pre, stock (plus a couple of free programs from the official app catalog), does what I need.
    <snipped stuff>
    To each his/her own, but I don't have any intentions of moving from this phone for quite some time, and will certainly be looking for a new WebOS Palm device when I do. I suspect that their is a greater percentage of Palm users like me, than of you folks (especially since less technical people aren't going to be hung up on some of the stuff you guys are). But I guess we'll see.
    Until more people actually realize what can be done on a real smartphone they will likely be happy with what they get, even if it is half baked.
    Truth be told, a lot of are moving up from dumbphones or advanced texting devices like the blackberry line.

    Once you have people that are moving from smartphone to smartphone you will see expectations jump RADICALLY rather than from the current shift of dumbphone to advanced text device (blkberry) or dumbphone to mediocre smartphone.
    Smart phone to smart phone (over the next year) will be more of a trade of features, rather than an argument over what works....
    ie. expect to see a move from an iPhone to the new HTC Incredible or the Palm Pre to the iPhone

    Its all about expectations and the majority of people have none, because they are not 'techies' and as such don't understand how much the phone can and should do and how easy is should do it. <shrug>

    not a knock against the people, just a comment about how their thought patterns will change over the next two years.
    Last edited by CanadianPre; 04/16/2010 at 01:31 PM. Reason: clarification
  17. #37  
    Falconrap, you suspect Palm will be launching on AT&T soon, and you suspect a new device is not far behind, and you suspect it will be on multiple carriers. We may even suspect Palm will still be here as an independent company (or at all) 12 months from now.

    People interested in the Evo know Sprint is launching it this summer, and they know it will be getting many useful accessories, and they know the platform has a robust future, and they know it will have a nice build quality because they can see the hardware in any store that sells an HD2 right now (go ahead...hit a Wal-Mart and hold one for yourself).

    So are you really wondering why people who want a new device in the next few months are looking at the Evo?
  18. #38  
    sounds like we have a bunch of lawyers in these forums. Boo-ya!
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    For WebOS sales to do nothing but decline each quarter despite the devices becoming cheaper and far more widely available across the world kinda seems like a pretty reliable definition of failure to me. For Palm to project that that will not be changing for at least another 3-4 months, thereby making it one straight year of decline, seems like a fair and objective definition of failure...
    Palm has said for quite some time, that they planned on losing money. And even though they said their losses were more than anticipated, they also said they are able to continue on, and plan on continuing. I always find it interesting one people except the negative of what a company states, and ignore the positive. I suppose folks will find what they're looking for in these things.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Who but you and Ruby would argue that these handsets have been a success?
    I'd say anyone that looks at it objectively. What was the purpose of these handsets? To pull Palm out of their almost certain closure. Have they closed? Nope.
    I'll repeat, Folks will find what they're looking for in these things.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by falconrap View Post
    Market share and sales are two different things. Palm can be selling more devices now than they have in many months and still lose market share. Why? Because the smart phone market is growing very fast, so Palm could be getting more and more sales, but not selling as fast as the market is growing.
    A flimsy argument, but even on these terms, they failed. Palm device sellthrough was less than the same quarter last year. So, whether it's marketshare or raw numbers of sales, they are in decline. Period.

    The market is only going to continue to grow. Those who think there is only room for 3 in a market that could grow from 100's of millions to a couple of billion in a couple of years, have another thing coming.
    So assuming that Apple, Google, and RIM are the three, which one of the rest is Palm going to leapfrog, Microsoft or Nokia?

    Palm just needs to get enough phones sold (around 5-6 million) to get over the hump. Right now, they appear to be around 1 third of the way there. The upcoming launches (end of April and then AT&T) will probably add somewhere between 500k and 1.5M new WebOS users. Add a new phone 2 or 3 months later, and they might just reach critical mass.
    I guess you haven't been reading the quarterly numbers. Last quarter, they sold less than 500K WebOS devices on all carriers, domestic and foreign, COMBINED. And that was with the Pre Plus being relatively new and having a mobile hotspot app. No such app on AT&T, no AT&T launch date, and no carrier willing to put significant effort any more into advertising these two phones means they will not be adding anywhere near "1.5 million new WebOS users".

    They aren't in trouble unless they fail to have at least 5 million users around October-November time frame. That's when I would start worrying about them.
    They won't even be close. You add up sell through of every quarter WebOS has been on sale, and that number is somewhere around 1.5 million (not all of which are WebOS devices). Keep in mind that sales have DECLINED every quarter, and Palm projects it to continue through next quarter at the very least. So they'd have to sell more than 3 million Pre and Pixi phones in the quarter leading up to your time frame during a period in which the Evo, Nexus One CDMA, and iPhone 4 all launch on the same carriers carrying the Pre now. Did I mention that these are flagship devices that will be pushed over the Pre by the salespeople in every B&M store?

    Even if they magically unleashed a new device for sale on all three carriers, there's no way it would sell that much in a quarter given that competition.
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