View Poll Results: Are you happy with your Pre'?

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280. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    197 70.36%
  • No

    40 14.29%
  • I believe that Palm will fix the issues in the next year

    37 13.21%
  • I am moving on

    28 10.00%
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  1. s219's Avatar
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    #341  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    S219
    Sir you seem to indicate that Palm will close the shop.your argument about the linux webkit , mojo platform doesn't have the power of a C compiler. Hence the platform sucks. And folks working on WebOS are not smarter than the iphone jailbreaking community? WE HEARD THOSE BEFORE, GRACIOUS.

    I know there are half a million folks using WebOS and another couple million joining come 2010. Seriuosly are you predicting doom for PALM and WebOS ?

    You seem to know more about PALM than many of the financial analysts.
    I am not predicting doom in a direct manner, I am simply saying that the development opportunity is not there, and that is bad for the long term prospects of this platform. Draw your own conclusions from that.
  2. s219's Avatar
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    #342  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Your points are all very good ones. However, the iPhone was aready a huge success before the SDK was released.

    BTW What do you think of the new Nokia Linux platform on the N900. It seems to be the purest example yet of a linux based smartphone.
    It looks pretty good to me. The platform and some form of an SDK has been around since 2005 or so, and it's gotten much better in recent years. It's still kind of rough in many ways, but for people accustomed to developing on Linux, it's about average. I guess if I have a concern, it's how the Ovi store will pan out. So far it's looking like Nokia is being kind of conservative, or maybe they're just lacking the touch/experience (which Apple got from running iTunes for a long time). Sometimes, Nokia strikes me as being Microsoft-like in their moves -- a little clumsy.
  3. bigdgramps's Avatar
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    #343  
    I am a plain old (literally) user. Palm has been my tool since the 90’s. My first product was the Palm III. I could see then that the pda/phone had to be the next thing. I had become a Palm sycophant without knowing it. I liked the product, liked the philosophy. Palm has provided me some fantastic tools and made my life more efficient and easier. I loved my Treo’s. Nobody, in my mind, could do better. However, they have had a “business” managing problem over the years and they needed to fix it. They may have done just that with the Pre’. In the process of this fix, they hire new people (I think) and those people had a different philosophy than what was in the earlier Palm products. Those people made and marketed a new and great phone. (note: I feel that there was some deception in their marketing, but that is my problem, “Caveat Emptor”.) The Pre’ is not, however, the little computer my Treo’s were. Some of the neat features of the Treo were apparently abandoned. I find it amazing that so many intelligent people were caught unaware of some of the perceived shortcomings of the product. Again good marketing, bad public relations. There is something in the mist of this product that I can’t see but find very disturbing. I no longer have the control that was available to me with the Treo. Synchronizing was a shock. The fact that I had to buy Classic to save my other investments was upsetting, and many of the other issues that have been brought up here have been a source of disturbance. That package was what people were used to, and didn't think that parts of it would be ripped away. Palm’s responsiveness has been hot and cold and often just silent. One thing that I can see, which is pretty clever, it is that Palm will gain a whole new market of people that are not really Treo types and never will be, but they are gonna love the Pre’. That is great for Palm. Their business model needed it. Those of us who are either too blind to see the future, or just want a different future will likely stay in the Palm fold and go back to the Treo family. Maybe one day some of the neat things that are in the Pre’ will migrate to the Treo znc vice versa, so that Palm will have a larger market share than they have ever had in the past. That might be the smart thing to do. All you who love the Pre’, I say, great and I am truly happy for you. It is for some of us, who had different expectation, a let down. I feel somewhat cheated or maybe even betrayed. I don’t think that I am alone. However, we can go back to the Treo/Centro and hope that Palm, once they are more comfortably on their feet, will throw us a few bones. We haven’t left, we just desire something more or different. I not sure how I am going to hancle all this, I have already had to have my Phone replaced and been told that it has to be replaced again???? The best to Palm and the best to all of you working hard to make the Pre' work.
  4. #344  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    That's the problem. It's a problem for us, and is a problem for other developers I work with and talk to. That's why this is turning into a hobbyist platform. Serious developers are not jumping in like they should be.
    You may have your reasons for believing such, but don't you think that's a bold statement to make this early in the game?
    Sony Clie --> Tungsten t2 --> iPhone3g --> Palm Pre --> Droid
  5. s219's Avatar
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    #345  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    You may have your reasons for believing such, but don't you think that's a bold statement to make this early in the game?
    It's the simple truth, I don't see how it can be so bold. Anybody with the resources/connections into the dev community can come to the same conclusion. Same goes for the SDK -- anybody with development experience and a good understanding of the state of the art in mobile programming can see what the problems/limitations are. There is nothing bold/remarkable about what I am saying. Unfortunately, I think the reality of it rubs many people the wrong way.
  6. cooltpmd's Avatar
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    #346  
    I have a degree in analyzing technology for a particular profession. I will give input on this great topic:

    I wrote apps for the plam OS for years. They were stable, they were inventive, they were as "open source" as any PDA. LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!

    Palm lost their way. They let Blackberry, Apple, Google, and others catch up ... it is their fault, no one else to blame.

    Web OS is like a "youth" infusion to the Palm family ... I love much about it. Palm, again, lost their way. As a multi-decade user/developer, I wanted in right from the start ... I was told, and I quote "the WebOS is aiming at a whole new audience, and will not need the skills you brought to Palm OS."

    The whole philosophy is flawed. Palm has a savvy, dedicated following ... that would appreciate the Pre advances. Classic should be a free app that bridges the gap between old & new Palm.

    Can you imagine having the "preferred vendors" in the app store being the reference texts and apps that you used on the Palm ... updated to WebOS ???

    I love the device, I love the gestures, I love the WebOS ... I really don't like the 1/2 azz philosophy of updates and app selection.
  7. #347  
    this phone has only been out for how long,and people cant or wont give palm the benefit of the doubt right ha ha . figures. anyways give them a chance to update the phone and you will change your mind . come how could you expect a completly different phone to have all the same tweaks that cater to your specific needs .but hey thats wht they made it so easy to make programs for it. so the people could build it the way the masses want it lol . so take a seat relax and watch wath happens im sure you will be happy ..... well maybe lol
  8. gbp
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    #348  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    It's the simple truth, I don't see how it can be so bold. Anybody with the resources/connections into the dev community can come to the same conclusion. Same goes for the SDK -- anybody with development experience and a good understanding of the state of the art in mobile programming can see what the problems/limitations are. There is nothing bold/remarkable about what I am saying. Unfortunately, I think the reality of it rubs many people the wrong way.
    Truth is more than SDK limitations, truth is where you make money from.
    Don't need a super duper SDK to create 3 D games to make money.

    Check few of the expensive applications iPhone sells. While your point about APPLE having a better SDK is well taken, but please , don't be silly. Serious money is made even with simple web apps , you don't need all that accelerators.

    I don't usually get into such arguments. Long story short , PALM has sold about half a million Pres, and will sell another couple millions once the Verizons , china telecom and 02s of the world get it. You are talking about 2- 3 million pres across the world. Which is a tenth of the iPhone sales ( current figures) , and iPhone might sell tens of millions more in coming year.

    But 2-3 million sales will bring enough money , I mean enough that PALM make about 400 - 700 million sales on this phone. Also the webOS will be used for another device , i.e. EOS. May be they have more in store for next year.

    PALM is not going anywhere , it will stay and still kick around with an inferior , lame , puny SDK with hobbyist developers (your words).
  9. #349  
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    You may have your reasons for believing such, but don't you think that's a bold statement to make this early in the game?
    He's a developer that's made a decision not to develop for the Pre. He may speak for his company, but I suspect he doesn't really speak for the others. Forther, I'd say he's got a vested interest in convincing others the the platorm he's not developing for is doomed.
    I suspect he won't be around here by the end of September, when all of those commercial programs that aren't being developed are released.
    Last edited by hparsons; 08/30/2009 at 01:41 AM.
  10. #350  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Unfiortunately by typing java instead of javascript you completely changed the meaning of your assertion. That isn't just a spelling mistake. I never asserted that WebOS didn't run a JVM, so I guess you goofed and I did not. The presence of a JVM is irrelevant.
    I have four daughters (all grown now). All of them have been called by the name of one of their sisters by me at one time or another (or several). They were bright enough to discern who I was talking about from the context of the conversation.

    Even had they not been, they certainly would have gracious enough to accept it when I said "Sorry, I meant Kim not Katie".

    And that was before they grew up.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    As for my use of the word essentially, I stand by it. There is no major technical difference between a regular browser app and WebOS apps. Yes WebOS apps have access to some local APIs and yes they are loaded from a local file system but I consider these to be minor differences.
    You may stand by it, but you're still wrong. I'll make a deal with you though - I'll be willing to make a bet with you that Palm, the company that owns WebOS, has a contrary view?

    You ready to put up, or are you going to ignore this one like the last bet you were challenged to on here?
  11. #351  
    ADGrant
    Just to put an end to this silly bit of nonsense about WebOS being "basically a browser"; these are a couple of interesting quotes:
    Palm webOS is based upon an innovative design that integrates a window-based modern operating system with a web technology runtime that allows youto build applications using common web languages and tools, without the restriction of working within a web browser.
    I know, I know, you're likely to fall back on the "It's still basically a browser", but this should dispell that one as well:
    Applications are built using JavaScript, HTML, and CSS, and while similar to web applications, webOS applications are actually native applications.
    The above quotes are from Mitch Allen, Palm's Chief Technology Officer.
  12. #352  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    He's a developer that's made a decision not to develop for the Pre. He may speak for his company, but I suspect he doesn't really speak for the others. Forther, I'd say he's got a vested interest in convincing others the the platorm he's not developing for is doomed.
    I suspect he won't be around here by the end of September, when all of those commercial programs that aren't being developed are released.
    it's good to finally have a time frame on record from hparsons. Hparsons, you're anticipating that the world will see the "light of Pre" by end of September. We'll hold you to that.

    But what specifically are you expecting to see? What's type of apps, what volume, what complexity, etc? It's great to have a clear timeline from you. The next step is to find out what exactly you expect from the platform by end of Sept.

    Thanks.
  13. s219's Avatar
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    #353  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    He's a developer that's made a decision not to develop for the Pre. He may speak for his company, but I suspect he doesn't really speak for the others. Forther, I'd say he's got a vested interest in convincing others the the platorm he's not developing for is doomed.
    I suspect he won't be around here by the end of September, when all of those commercial programs that aren't being developed are released.
    Of course I don't speak for others. And I have no idea how/why I should have a vested interest in dooming the platform. It is possible to criticize/critique something and still want it to succeed; I sure don't have issues with maintaining that distinction myself.

    Listen, 40-60 days ago devs were sounding the alarm because the webOS/Pre had no graphics acceleration, no way to implement high performance rendering, poor accelerometer polling, unprotected source code, etc. Everybody said they were full of crap, Palm haters, Apple fanboys, etc, but it was based on simple facts that anyone could figure out if they looked over the SDK documentation. And sure enough, it was 100% accurate and explains why the user interface is slow and laggy at times. It also correlates with what I am seeing and hearing from other developers. Some stuff is totally objective, especially stuff that is based on the OS technology and not open to interpretation.

    You don't have to be bold, or a genius, or a hater, or a fanboy or anything special to read the tea leaves here.
  14. gbp
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    #354  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    Of course I don't speak for others. And I have no idea how/why I should have a vested interest in dooming the platform. It is possible to criticize/critique something and still want it to succeed; I sure don't have issues with maintaining that distinction myself.

    Listen, 40-60 days ago devs were sounding the alarm because the webOS/Pre had no graphics acceleration, no way to implement high performance rendering, poor accelerometer polling, unprotected source code, etc. Everybody said they were full of crap, Palm haters, Apple fanboys, etc, but it was based on simple facts that anyone could figure out if they looked over the SDK documentation. And sure enough, it was 100% accurate and explains why the user interface is slow and laggy at times. It also correlates with what I am seeing and hearing from other developers. Some stuff is totally objective, especially stuff that is based on the OS technology and not open to interpretation.

    You don't have to be bold, or a genius, or a hater, or a fanboy or anything special to read the tea leaves here.
    I am not sure what to say here , what on earth is so great about having graphic acceleration ? Go ahead read more tech gadget sites and bash PALM and webOS SDK. I see your point and agree , but you don't seem to pay attention to the point that there are still 2-4 millions customers , who neither have time nor the inclination to play games on the gadgets.
    May be they have better things to do than play games.
    They are perfectly all right with the device they have.
    May be they haven't seen any better product , or aren't smart enough to use a phone with super duper SDK that does wonders with accelerators.
    But they are just fine with what they got.
    Hence the WebOS survives and will continue to make money.

    A suggestion , try arguing about lack of accelerators on BB.
    The guys is going to laugh at you. Because , he doesn't need one, and even if the phone has the capability , HE DOESN't CARE. There are millions of BB users out there , who are very loyal to their phone.
  15. #355  
    Originally posted by s219:
    . . . Listen, 40-60 days ago devs were sounding the alarm because the webOS/Pre had no graphics acceleration, no way to implement high performance rendering, poor accelerometer polling, unprotected source code, etc. Everybody said they were full of crap, . . .

    . . .You don't have to be bold, or a genius, or a hater, or a fanboy or anything special to read the tea leaves here.
    Good. You've made your prediction based on your vast developer knowledge. Now just sit back and wait for the results. You don't have to convince others you're right. I as simply a Pre customer don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about and don't have enough interest to try and figure it out.

    I'm a previous user of the Sony Clie. My PDA experience remained with them until Sony dropped the platform. After that time, I discovered the iPod and later the Treo.

    Every iPod I bought, had to have the extended warranty, because they all went out before 1 year was up and definitely went out by year two (usually twice). I spoke to other iPod owners, avid owners, and this was the norm. Personally for a device that only played music and only served one function, I was stunned. I had never had problems with my Clie.

    Thus, when I bought the Treo and the headset jack went out, I realized that my Clie experience made my expectations too high.

    I say all that the explain the difference between a developer mindset and a user or owner mindset. Most mature users aren't going to get upset about a platform or device, because it only does what you initially purchased it to do.

    Regular Pre customers will be pleased when the Pre does new things. I currently find excuses to send emoticons in my text and even look them up to figure out how to do them.

    I've never in my life forwarded a text or even used text that much. Now I'm constantly texting, e-mailing and I've rooted my Pre to forward text and read mail in landscape. I find that I use the landscape, but haven't had the need to forward a text yet.

    Without this forum, it wouldn't have even occurred to me to use emoticons (smiley faces), forward text, and numerous other things that I can do. Having such a forum gives me a richer Pre user experience and as long as I can keep accessing that knowledge and experience, I'll be fine.

    It was forums that taught me how to use and love my Clie and now it's this forum that makes my Pre experience delightful. As long as it doesn't turn into an iPod and physically stop working every 8 - 11 months, I'll be fine.

    So while many of you are waiting to see what apps will come and what move Palm will make (will they live? will they die?), I know apps will come and I'm just waiting for 6/2010 and 12/2010. That's right. Will the device last!

    As a customer, I'm going to get another phone w/in two years. Whether or not it's another Palm will depend upon whether or not Palm is still around and if I can use all of my favorite Palm OS applications on the native device by then. The favorite applications aren't a must if similar apps take their place, but I do need my audible experience enriched and outside classic.
    Last edited by bdhu2001; 08/30/2009 at 08:54 AM.
  16. #356  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Even had they not been, they certainly would have gracious enough to accept it when I said "Sorry, I meant Kim not Katie".

    ...

    You may stand by it, but you're still wrong. I'll make a deal with you though - I'll be willing to make a bet with you that Palm, the company that owns WebOS, has a contrary view?

    You ready to put up, or are you going to ignore this one like the last bet you were challenged to on here?
    How could you possibly know I am wrong when you were unable to discern the difference between Java & Javascript. I didn't detect an apology and your claims that you really meant java were somewhat undercut by posting a dump of ps output showing a java VM running. If you are going to post on technical matters, get the details right. They are important.

    As for your silly and immature obsession with bets, I will ignore any and all of them so don't waste your time. Nor am I interested in the claims of the Palm marketing department or their CTO. I have the SDK, I can judge for myself.
  17. #357  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    ADGrant
    Just to put an end to this silly bit of nonsense about WebOS being "basically a browser"; these are a couple of interesting quotes:

    I know, I know, you're likely to fall back on the "It's still basically a browser", but this should dispell that one as well:

    The above quotes are from Mitch Allen, Palm's Chief Technology Officer.
    I am familar with all those quotes and they don't dispel anything. IMHO the biggest limitation of running in a browser is having to use javascript and that limitation is certainly there. The apps are sort of native because they will only run on the Pre. That is the worst of both worlds in some ways.
  18. #358  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    ADGrant
    Just to put an end to this silly bit of nonsense about WebOS being "basically a browser"; these are a couple of interesting quotes:

    I know, I know, you're likely to fall back on the "It's still basically a browser", but this should dispell that one as well:

    The above quotes are from Mitch Allen, Palm's Chief Technology Officer.
    Quote Originally Posted by darreno1 View Post
    You may have your reasons for believing such, but don't you think that's a bold statement to make this early in the game?
    Perhaps, but there is some evidence to support that assertion. Several major developers of PalmOS apps have announced that they do not plan to develop for WebOS (developers of apps like Chattermail, Date Bk6). OTOH Chapura and Dataviz are. Their current efforts are not particularly rich in functionality though.
  19. gbp
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    #359  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Perhaps, but there is some evidence to support that assertion. Several major developers of PalmOS apps have announced that they do not plan to develop for WebOS (developers of apps like Chattermail, Date Bk6). OTOH Chapura and Dataviz are. Their current efforts are not particularly rich in functionality though.
    I never user chattermail, I will have to check the features of it.
    What exactly does it do that can't be achieved by a native WebOS app or another third party ?
  20. #360  
    Quote Originally Posted by Really mobile View Post
    it's good to finally have a time frame on record from hparsons. Hparsons, you're anticipating that the world will see the "light of Pre" by end of September. We'll hold you to that.

    But what specifically are you expecting to see? What's type of apps, what volume, what complexity, etc? It's great to have a clear timeline from you. The next step is to find out what exactly you expect from the platform by end of Sept.

    Thanks.
    You saw me say "the world"? I don't think so. Palm doesn't need "the world" to buy the Pre for it to be successful, and I don't need "the world" to develop apps for it. A few quality commercial apps would suit me just fine.

    What "specifically" am I expecting to see? Some commercial applications. That's what we were discussing. Were you reading (I don't think you really were, in light of your above statement). The poster in question was basically saying there will be no commercial development for the Pre. I'm saying there will be. Commercial applications will be proof he's wrong. You can "hold me" to that.

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