View Poll Results: Are you happy with your Pre'?

Voters
280. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    197 70.36%
  • No

    40 14.29%
  • I believe that Palm will fix the issues in the next year

    37 13.21%
  • I am moving on

    28 10.00%
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  1. #301  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    What version of history is that? It's not accurate at all, nor relevant.
    ...
    When he said "device", I assume he was talking about the hardware (on the Apple). I think he was comparing the ease of access to the PC hardware to the ease of access to the Pre's WebOS. If that's the case, I'd agree with him that it's relevant.

    Though not an exact parallel, ease of access encourages third party development, which encourages more wide-spread acceptance. In the case of the PC, it was the open architecture of the hardware. In the case of the Pre, it's the open access to WebOS.
  2. #302  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    When he said "device", I assume he was talking about the hardware (on the Apple). I think he was comparing the ease of access to the PC hardware to the ease of access to the Pre's WebOS. If that's the case, I'd agree with him that it's relevant.

    Though not an exact parallel, ease of access encourages third party development, which encourages more wide-spread acceptance. In the case of the PC, it was the open architecture of the hardware. In the case of the Pre, it's the open access to WebOS.
    You got it. When I was referring to Apple, I meant THE Apple (Apple II), not the Mac. The Mac wasn't even "born" at that time. I clearly stated that "IBM did this with their PC hardware." And for the record, IBM didn't get squeezed out of the OS, they gave it to Bill Gates, who had developed it (DOS) because of IBM's short sightedness. In a big sense, IBM "made" Microsoft.

    No, it's not an exact parallel, but you understood it completely. Thank you for your clarification.
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    #303  
    How is the ease of access to webOS better than [insert another mobile SDK here] ? For instance, if we want to compare to the iPhone SDK or Android, webOS is far more limited right now. Some of the Pre's hardware is not even implemented, and much of the rest is obscured by the molasses of javascript.

    I'll repeat what I mentioned in another thread -- the mobile dev shops I work with are all frustrated with the lack of capability in the webOS. The only thing I see going strong on the Pre right now are hobby apps.
  4. gbp
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    #304  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    How is the ease of access to webOS better than [insert another mobile SDK here] ? For instance, if we want to compare to the iPhone SDK or Android, webOS is far more limited right now. Some of the Pre's hardware is not even implemented, and much of the rest is obscured by the molasses of javascript.

    I'll repeat what I mentioned in another thread -- the mobile dev shops I work with are all frustrated with the lack of capability in the webOS. The only thing I see going strong on the Pre right now are hobby apps.
    The ease of access to WebOS is better than iPhone , because , you are free to root the phone , and write programs that can compete with the included WebOS APPS.

    To put it simply, APPLE will not let you write a browser app for iPhone and also nulls the warranties and such if you happen to jailbreak it.

    With PALM , you can do that , and while PALM knows that you are side loading the APP , they do not null any warranties and such.

    Besides , precentral shown you an organized way of installing them via filecoaster. The process is simple.

    Plus you can start coding on Windows or Mac. Where as for APPLE , you need a mac.

    Clearly the WebOS platform as a whole is more open .
    It just needs to mature a bit ( read SDK updates)
  5. gbp
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    #305  
    Also so much for the phone APP lag,

    Did anyone delete all the calllog history and see how it works ?
  6. #306  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    The ease of access to WebOS is better than iPhone , because , you are free to root the phone , and write programs that can compete with the included WebOS APPS.

    To put it simply, APPLE will not let you write a browser app for iPhone and also nulls the warranties and such if you happen to jailbreak it.
    The iPhone is not the only smartphone on the market. Android is more open than either the iPhone or WebOS. However from the perspective of a professional developer all the platforms are as open as they need to be. To write apps for the iPhone you just have to buy a Mac and pay Apple a nominal amount of money for access to the SDK.

    I am not sure why anyone would want to write a browser app for either platform since the built in ones are more than adequate. Its not possible to do with the tools that Palm provides anyway.
  7. gbp
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    #307  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    The iPhone is not the only smartphone on the market. Android is more open than either the iPhone or WebOS. However from the perspective of a professional developer all the platforms are as open as they need to be. To write apps for the iPhone you just have to buy a Mac and pay Apple a nominal amount of money for access to the SDK.

    I am not sure why anyone would want to write a browser app for either platform since the built in ones are more than adequate. Its not possible to do with the tools that Palm provides anyway.
    I do not want to get into argument here , but there are folks who doesn't want to buy a mac to start writing apps.

    Second , why are you stopping with the native browser ? there is always room for improvement.

    Check windows platform you got at least 5 browsers that are unique in their own way.

    Stopping with native browser is a serious limitation.
  8. #308  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    I do not want to get into argument here , but there are folks who doesn't want to buy a mac to start writing apps.

    Second , why are you stopping with the native browser ? there is always room for improvement.

    Check windows platform you got at least 5 browsers that are unique in their own way.

    Stopping with native browser is a serious limitation.
    And just how are you going to write a new browser in a browser scripting language? WebOS apps essentially run inside a browser.

    BTW The reason Windows has 5 browsers is because the native one sucks.
  9. #309  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    How is the ease of access to webOS better than [insert another mobile SDK here] ? For instance, if we want to compare to the iPhone SDK or Android, webOS is far more limited right now. Some of the Pre's hardware is not even implemented, and much of the rest is obscured by the molasses of javascript.

    I'll repeat what I mentioned in another thread -- the mobile dev shops I work with are all frustrated with the lack of capability in the webOS. The only thing I see going strong on the Pre right now are hobby apps.
    Your programming folks may be frustrated by the "lack of capability", but I don't think everyone is. There are already quality apps in the Homebrew arena, and I've heard from a number of sources that the apps are on the way (as soon as they can make money on them) in the professional arena.
  10. #310  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    And just how are you going to write a new browser in a browser scripting language? WebOS apps essentially run inside a browser.
    No they do not.

    I know you're going to recoil at this one, but the statement is simply incorrect. There is no browser involved. The notion that you have to have a browser to run Java is simply incorrect.
  11. #311  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    No they do not.

    I know you're going to recoil at this one, but the statement is simply incorrect. There is no browser involved. The notion that you have to have a browser to run Java is simply incorrect.
    First of all, WebOS apps are not written in Java, they are written in Javascript & HTML/CSS. Javascript is the standard browser scripting language. Secondly, the Javascript & HTML/CSS are interpreted by a variant of the webkit opensource browser engine. This is the same code used by the Apple's Safari, Google Chrome and various other mobile browsers.
  12. #312  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Your programming folks may be frustrated by the "lack of capability", but I don't think everyone is. There are already quality apps in the Homebrew arena, and I've heard from a number of sources that the apps are on the way (as soon as they can make money on them) in the professional arena.
    I am sure there are but WebOS may end up being more popular homebrew developers than mobile software companies.
  13. #313  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    First of all, WebOS apps are not written in Java, they are written in Javascript & HTML/CSS. Javascript is the standard browser scripting language.
    ...
    Actually, there is a JVM on the pre.
    top - 16:24:49 up 8 min, 5 users, load average: 1.13, 1.65, 1.04
    Tasks: 86 total, 1 running, 85 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
    Cpu(s): 2.0%us, 1.6%sy, 0.0%ni, 74.1%id, 22.3%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, 0.0%st
    Mem: 245036k total, 241316k used, 3720k free, 16500k buffers
    Swap: 131064k total, 0k used, 131064k free, 71420k cached

    PID USER PRPRPR $NI$ $VIRT$ $RES$ $SHR$ $S$ %$CPU$ %$MEM$ $TIME$+ $COMMAND$
    ...
    1146 root 20 0 4836 1900 1644 S 0.0 0.8 0:00.18 PmConnectionMan
    1153 root 20 0 84688 34m 4940 S 0.0 14.5 0:44.30 java
    1155 root 20 0 25336 4228 2616 S 0.0 1.7 0:00.97 LunaSysService
    1188 root 20 0 6920 1524 1228 S 0.0 0.6 0:00.05 extractfs
    1193 root 20 0 1988 668 576 S 0.0 0.3 0:00.01 dropbear
    However, I really did mean Javascript.


    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Secondly, the Javascript & HTML/CSS are interpreted by a variant of the webkit opensource browser engine. This is the same code used by the Apple's Safari, Google Chrome and various other mobile browsers.
    Just because there are browsers that use WebKit as their core rendering engine does not make everything that uses WebKit a browser.

    WebOS apps are not running in a browser. WebOS has a browser seperate from the apps. You really should get you a Pre, get more familiar with it, then speak from an informed viewpoint.
  14. #314  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    I am sure there are but WebOS may end up being more popular homebrew developers than mobile software companies.
    I hope so. I think it's healthy when the "hobbiests" outnumber the commercial producers. That's what's given us such a robust set of Linux kernals.
  15. #315  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    I am sure there are but WebOS may end up being more popular homebrew developers than mobile software companies.
    I guess we'll have to see how much that matters to people who buy the Pre. I keep going back to my sister who has an iPhone and loves to brag about all the apps but admittedly has exactly three that she regularly uses. And two of those (diet trackers) do the exact same thing. Hell, the apps are free to us now, and I keep finding myself uninstalling stuff (like Fandango) that I thought I was really going to use when I downloaded it. I don't even go to movies.

    I have a few Homebrews installed that I think are just terrific. I don't really care if apps come from the official app catalog or somewhere else, as long as Palm doesn't close the door and the apps themselves are good. All it's really going to take is a few more good apps or updates to add a few features and I'll be totally set anyway.

    Don't get me wrong, quality apps are a good thing, but I think the idea of having tens of thousands of choices is way overrated.
    Last edited by GMoney749; 08/28/2009 at 04:52 PM.
  16. #316  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Actually, there is a JVM on the pre.

    However, I really did mean Javascript. WebOS apps are not running in a browser. You really should get one, get more familiar with it, then speak from an informed viewpoint.
    If you meant javascript why did you say Java, they are completely different. If you are going to be a pedant you should at least get your own facts straight.

    The major components of a browser are the HTML rendering engine and the Javascript interpreter. The MOJO framework is built on top of Webkit which is a browser engine (hence the name webkit).

    And BTW I have the Pre SDK. I can't make phone class with it of course but I can experiance the wonders of synergy and WebOS software development
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    #317  
    ADGrant is correct in that webKit is the underlying engine at work for apps. I am tempted to elaborate, but it's really that simple. webKit is the interpreter that runs the HTML/javascript/CSS code.
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    #318  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    The ease of access to WebOS is better than iPhone , because , you are free to root the phone , and write programs that can compete with the included WebOS APPS.

    To put it simply, APPLE will not let you write a browser app for iPhone and also nulls the warranties and such if you happen to jailbreak it.

    With PALM , you can do that , and while PALM knows that you are side loading the APP , they do not null any warranties and such.

    Besides , precentral shown you an organized way of installing them via filecoaster. The process is simple.

    Plus you can start coding on Windows or Mac. Where as for APPLE , you need a mac.

    Clearly the WebOS platform as a whole is more open .
    It just needs to mature a bit ( read SDK updates)


    You can write a rudimentary browser with the webOS SDK, but if you want one that is going to be any good, it will have to be developed in something other than the webOS SDK (which means Linux and rooting, putting C compilers on the device, and tapping into the undocumented Linux libraries in the system -- or installing all your own). Good luck getting that into Palm's App catalog -- they are not going to let it in if it doesn't run on top of the webOS. If you think Palm will be any different than Apple in this regard, you don't understand how the App Catalog works.

    You can jailbreak an iPhone it if you want to root the device, develop apps with the (better) SDK, write a browser app, etc. All this can coexist with Apple's standard OS/App load. The iPhone jailbreak community makes the webOS Homebrew community look like a bunch of web lackeys.

    You are under the perception that the webOS is more open, and have given some poor reasons why you think that is the case (Mac versus Windows box?? Who cares -- any serious developer in this for business is probably already using a Mac, and if not, they won't hesitate to get one if the business opportunity is there -- the iPhone app market has demonstrated this quite clearly). But even if I ignore the weak argument for a moment and agree that the webOS itself is more open, the SDK is so pathetic that it more than cancels out any openness of the platform. Great, it's open, too bad we can't do any serious development work.

    It is frustrating to hear exchanges like this. Palm is never going to turn the webOS into a serious platform if everybody is happy with the current status quo, and defending it, and making up all sorts of reasons why it's better than Apple. It's like Grand Moff Tarkin on the Death Star saying "seriously, this thing is impenetrable, I'm not worried at all". Meanwhile, the X-wing fighters are circling and there's a big bulls-eye on the reactor core.

    I don't know if it's insecurity, or the need to justify your choice of a phone, or a dislike of Apple, but seriously, you guys need to get a clue. I want the webOS platform to succeed, but I can't blindly cheerlead the way things are now.
  19. #319  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    It is frustrating to hear exchanges like this. Palm is never going to turn the webOS into a serious platform if everybody is happy with the current status quo, and defending it, and making up all sorts of reasons why it's better than Apple. It's like Grand Moff Tarkin on the Death Star saying "seriously, this thing is impenetrable, I'm not worried at all". Meanwhile, the X-wing fighters are circling and there's a big bulls-eye on the reactor core.

    I don't know if it's insecurity, or the need to justify your choice of a phone, or a dislike of Apple, but seriously, you guys need to get a clue. I want the webOS platform to succeed, but I can't blindly cheerlead the way things are now.
    Well, didja ever think that if people are defending it that might mean that they're actually happy with it and not necessarily mentally disturbed?? Is it mandatory to give a crap about it developing into a "serious platform", whatever the hell that means, to own one? I chose the Pre for form factor and interface, and actually like what I bought. Not perfect, but good enough. If it gets to the point that it no longer works for me, I'll buy something else.

    I understand that not everyone shares that view, but don't get why, particularly on a Pre forum, people feel the need to bust out the insults whenever somebody expresses it. I keep forgetting that it's a new world where it's cool to complain about anything and everything and expressing satisfaction is a sin.

    I guess I'll go back over and sit at the dork table in the lunch arbor.
  20. #320  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    Well, didja ever think that if people are defending it that might mean that they're actually happy with it and not necessarily mentally disturbed?? Is it mandatory to give a crap about it developing into a "serious platform", whatever the hell that means, to own one? I chose the Pre for form factor and interface, and actually like what I bought. Not perfect, but good enough. If it gets to the point that it no longer works for me, I'll buy something else
    GMoney,

    Have you considered that this isn't really about one person's likes or dislikes, but about raising the general quality of the device so that it's on par with other devices and OSes on the market THEN seeing sales reflect that THEN having Palm continue to exist THEN all of us enjoying plenty of more official apps and future updates? That some of us like myself and Cardfan who were staunch defenders of the device previously talk extensively about its flaws now because we want to highlight them, see them fixed, and see Palm succeed?

    I know people get personally attached their electronics, especially in the smartphone wars, but look objectively as you can at what's going on right now.

    Things aren't working as well as hoped. Sprint and Palm have been silent about sales. The SDK was late. Official apps are late. Sprint is dropping no less than three major new touchscreen smartphones in the next 60 days, and that's the only US carrier that has Pre for at least the next 120 days. If things continue at this pace, it's over. Palm runs out of money while ironically being overvalued in the stock market to the point of being a less-than-ideal acquisition target.

    Only Palm can turn it around with the moves they make in the next month or two. And if said moves don't address some of what you guys consider "whining", it's a wrap. We don't want that, and neither do you. But glossing over problems with Palm and the device, and patiently waiting for significant changes isn't going to help.

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