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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by HardBeatZ View Post
    /personal opinion

    I wonder where the blame would go if Palm did have people outside of the company and partner companies test updates and it still launch with some bugs in the software.

    /personal opinion
    HardBeatZ:
    I have the utmost respect for you.
    You represent Palm here and you try practically every day to help all of us.

    Don't think that goes unnoticed.
    I'm sure that it's no easy task and we all owe you a sincere thank you for all your efforts.

    I hope you don't take any of my rants personally, because it's not meant to be.
  2. #22  
    OP:
    A selection of devs get the updates a few weeks before release. They test it and give feedback to Palm.
    So, in other words, while your idea is good; it's already being done.
    Just not by us.
  3. #23  
    If you want to beta test updates before they're released then signup for the developer early release program. We get the updates before they hit, but it doesn't seem like Palm really listens to many of us when we post bugs.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    HardBeatZ:
    I have the utmost respect for you.
    You represent Palm here and you try practically every day to help all of us.

    Don't think that goes unnoticed.
    I'm sure that it's no easy task and we all owe you a sincere thank you for all your efforts.

    I hope you don't take any of my rants personally, because it's not meant to be.
    I'm glad users are grateful to attempt to assist users with issues. This is by far not my job within Palm, I do it as a "side project" so to speak. My free time is spent here and on our own forums trying to identify issues that have not been brought up by people contacting our telephone or chat support channels.

    While I know you have some tendencies to become frustrated I don't think you venture out any further than any other frustrated user. In fact there are many times I have been frustrated whether because the device doesn't do something I want it to do and it's not capable or because of a simple bug. WebOS is far from perfect, but I also have a long standing history of many mobile operating systems. Symbian, Maemo, Palm OS, Windows Mobile, Android, Apple, and have a Blackberry lying around, but the bottom line is nothing IMO comes near what webOS is capable of doing, bugs in all.

    I'm always thrilled, as with many other members of Palm, to see the fan base we have that sticks with us in this very rough time we are going through. The biggest struggle is getting people to adjust to change, so coming from Palm OS to webOS is a big jump, a huge jump..webOS is years beyond what Palm OS was ever capable of, although it lacks some wonderful Palm OS concepts, but its new and it's different and the general concept is to not adapt to change.

    I believe in webOS and I believe that users stick with us and we are able to get through this..people are going to forget what Palm OS was.
    Ex HP webOS Tech Support

    5Ts: Five ways to get your webOS tablet working again: http://www.hpwebos.com/5Ts

    6Ts: Six ways to get your webOS phone working again: http://www.hpwebos.com/6Ts
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by HardBeatZ View Post
    I'm glad users are grateful to attempt to assist users with issues. This is by far not my job within Palm, I do it as a "side project" so to speak. My free time is spent here and on our own forums trying to identify issues that have not been brought up by people contacting our telephone or chat support channels.

    While I know you have some tendencies to become frustrated I don't think you venture out any further than any other frustrated user. In fact there are many times I have been frustrated whether because the device doesn't do something I want it to do and it's not capable or because of a simple bug. WebOS is far from perfect, but I also have a long standing history of many mobile operating systems. Symbian, Maemo, Palm OS, Windows Mobile, Android, Apple, and have a Blackberry lying around, but the bottom line is nothing IMO comes near what webOS is capable of doing, bugs in all.

    I'm always thrilled, as with many other members of Palm, to see the fan base we have that sticks with us in this very rough time we are going through. The biggest struggle is getting people to adjust to change, so coming from Palm OS to webOS is a big jump, a huge jump..webOS is years beyond what Palm OS was ever capable of, although it lacks some wonderful Palm OS concepts, but its new and it's different and the general concept is to not adapt to change.

    I believe in webOS and I believe that users stick with us and we are able to get through this..people are going to forget what Palm OS was.
    Thanks.
  6. #26  
    Or maybe palm should install some homebrew patch's to see what all of the users rants are about, along with have their own internal testers that sees how patch's affect the os and maybe be able to solve the to many cards thing, along with some other stuff that palm is not able to recreate in their virgin testing.....or do they already do this?
  7. #27  
    It's quite likely that Palm already beta tests whatever comes out in many different ways. Another 50 could help, but you're still going to run into issues when you put it out to a larger group. That's just the way it is when you have software that is still relatively fresh. Adding features as quickly as Palm has, well, it just takes more testing than is feasible. In the end, they're going to release something, and it's going to have some bugs. We all want Palm to keep pushing on functionality, and bugs in our releases will be the result. I, for one, am actually quite impressed that there aren't a LOT more bugs.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  8. #28  
    I hope that someday it gets to a point where palm realizes that the home brew patches is like a check list that they should use, as it indicates what the people want. I know they are already doing this and some of the patch's we had back then, are now obsolete due to palm added them already. great to see that they actually care.
  9.    #29  
    It amazes me that some users just think poor quality products are ok and normal.

    I do not accept poor quality. I look for ways to improve it. It can be done.

    Accepting poor quality as the norm has almost run the American automakers out of business. The auto makers who insist on high quality are the ones succeeding.

    Forgive me, but poor quality is not acceptable in my work, so I am in the habit of challenging the mindset that accepts poor quality. I know this isn't rocket science, but where I work, poor quality can result in loss of life. Again I say, it can be done!
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonylmiller View Post
    It amazes me that some users just think poor quality products are ok and normal.

    I do not accept poor quality. I look for ways to improve it. It can be done.

    Accepting poor quality as the norm has almost run the American automakers out of business. The auto makers who insist on high quality are the ones succeeding.

    Forgive me, but poor quality is not acceptable in my work, so I am in the habit of challenging the mindset that accepts poor quality. I know this isn't rocket science, but where I work, poor quality can result in loss of life. Again I say, it can be done!
    It's not accepting poor quality. If Palm's policy was to just release 'poor' quality OS for us to embrace, we still would be stuck at 1.0. The fact they are coming out with basically monthly updates is a testament that they are doing all they can given their resources.

    Where are we now? Oh, 1.4.1.1.

    It still amazes me that you don't understand the point being made. Each update is an attempt to increase the quality made based on the framework that 1.0 has established. Sure, there has been some defect in the code along the way, but it gets addressed in further updates.

    This, being very common in software development.

    Sorry you don't understand.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonylmiller View Post

    Accepting poor quality as the norm has almost run the American automakers out of business. The auto makers who insist on high quality are the ones succeeding.
    Also, forgive me but isn't the failure of the auto-industry based on the increased cost of production and materials leading to smaller profit margins?

    Forgive me for my ignorance.
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by phidalgo View Post
    It's not accepting poor quality. If Palm's policy was to just release 'poor' quality OS for us to embrace, we still would be stuck at 1.0. The fact they are coming out with basically monthly updates is a testament that they are doing all they can given their resources.

    Where are we now? Oh, 1.4.1.1.

    It still amazes me that you don't understand the point being made. Each update is an attempt to increase the quality made based on the framework that 1.0 has established. Sure, there has been some defect in the code along the way, but it gets addressed in further updates.

    This, being very common in software development.

    Sorry you don't understand.
    I understand completely. This is not about the quality of WebOS. It is about releasing buggy updates. They are putting out updates, which is a good thing. They updates have too many problems. That is a bad thing. You are willing to accept the bad with the good (which was the point of my previous post). I would rather improve poor quality than accept it.

    I say that better testing can improve the quality of updates. I'm afraid to try to edit text on my Pre now. Last time I tried (after the update), the text got replaced with a capital "H", and there is no "undo" function.

    What good is it if you fix a bug, but create another one in the process?
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  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by olidie View Post
    WebOS is still young and evolving. I think once the OS gets to a point were's it's almost fully mature (by version 2.0) we'll be seeing less and less update. By then the OS will be very stable so will the updates.

    In a year folks. We'll get there. Be patient. But I do agree with the OP's suggestion, I would volunteer to be a beta tester, not for free though; purchasing the phone at subsidize price every year without signing a new contract with my carrier would be a plus.
    Palm/Garnet OS didn't start to really pick up until OS 3.5 on the Palm III was launched. That was 2 years later after the original Pilot 1000. People didn't even know what Palm OS was until the PalmPilot Professional was launched a year later. iPhone wasn't this popular with the original EDGE iPhone either, not until the 3G hit.

    To quote from the book "Crossing the Chasm", we're probably in the "chasm" right now:

    Palm IIIc -> Sony CLIÉ T650C -> Sony TJ-37 -> Palm TX -> Palm Centro -> Palm Pre Bell -> Palm Pre Plus Bell/Verizon Hybrid -> HP Veer -> HP Pre 3 NA -> BlackBerry Classic -> BlackBerry Priv

    It's a Late Goodbye, such a Late Goodbye.

    Need OEM Palm Pre parts? See here
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    All of us are already beta testers.
    All of us.
    lmao lmao in a way sad to say but true
  15. #35  
    I think there are a lot of good points being made here, at least from my experience. That is, from a software development perspective, I understand bugs being a necessary evil and the work of chasing them down and fixing them (then maybe fixing the probs the fix caused) is never-ending. However, to the end-user, none of this matters. The excuse of that end-users just don't understand software development does not really fly with most people. That is sort of like a large company embroiled in a scandal blaming the media for bias against them. At the end of the day, that sounds like a cop-out.

    Smartphones today, IMO, are simply too powerful and polished (e.g. the iPhone and Blackberry juggernauts) to not totally nail the execution. Unless the Smartphone market is expanding, which I am not sure if it is, every bit of business a new competitor gets must be stolen from the established players. Sure, people will forgive true game-changing technology a few faults and false starts, because there is little/no true competition (mainly due to the fact that enthusiasts/early-adopters traditionally exhibit loyalty and dedication that is far more "sticky" than other sectors of the market). However, with WebOS, although it absolutely is revolutionary in the *way* it does things, it is not revolutionary in what it does. As such, the features look more like a evolutionary upgrade for most than a revolutionary upgrade. To compete, Palm *has* to do more than one thing better than the competition. Palm needs to create a device experience that is not only remarkable, but *valuable* for its users to really gain significant market share.

    Anyway, that is just my $.02, and everything I wrote could be wrong.

    Best,

    John
  16. #36  
    Additionally, I think the idea of engaging community members (typically your brand/product's biggest, most vocal fans) can net massive dividends. To me, actively community involvement of end-users is requisite to any smaller company wishing to expand their place in a market. Tech companies are getting more and more transparent every day, and I think that companies ignore the need for good communication and involvement with their engaged user-base to their own peril. Sort of like what agile software development has been able to do, building in feedback loops to the most influential groups of your customers can not only take a product from good to great, but can also (sometime massively) decrease the time it takes to get there.
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