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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mattykinsx View Post
    Itunes is terrrrrrrrible and there are MUCH better mp3 players out there. Yet, what are you listening to your music on? An "ipod" even if it's not an Apple ipod!
    The name is synonymous with mp3 players now.

    Very hard to compete.
    Maybe on Windows, but on Mac iTunes is great. Everyone I know that uses Mac uses iTunes.

    Again, I stand by belief that advertising hasn't played hardly any role in Palm's success (or lack thereof rather..). I've seen plenty of commercials, both web-based and television. I've sat in theaters full of people before a movie starts and a Sprint commercial will roll that displays the Pre with it's feature-set and I've literally heard people laugh at it with the subtle comment of "I'll stick with my iPhone" ... that's what Palm is competing against.

    Nothing beats the power of word. That's how the iPhone became what it is today, it started off very slow, for the first 6-months to year not many had one. You were "cool" if you had one, that or most thought you were an ***** for spending $500 - $600 on a cell phone.

    I was an early adopter, yes. I had the first and the second generation iPhones. I saw many people in my life pick up iPhones because of all the cool things I was doing with mine, and this was long before Apple really began pushing their advertising campaigns. When Apple started with all the ads they already had a good chunk of the market share. Honestly, Apple's ads I find to be pointless. They could probably save their money on them and still have success in selling millions of handsets.

    Palm right now needs to continue pushing updates and making WebOS more mature. That should be their main focus. Second... should be new updated hardware that doesn't seem like it's targeted towards tween or mom. Something powerful, sturdy, and looks good. You have a solid os on a solid device with a nice application catalog then people will begin to take notice.

    Sadly, the Pre/Pixi right now is nothing more than a niche product. There's a very small community here of enthusiasts that love it for what it is, but there's a lot more that don't.
    Last edited by barkerja; 03/07/2010 at 06:29 AM.
  2. vladi's Avatar
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    #42  
    Apps fad says a lot more about consumers rather than actually concept of apps.
    And very concept of apps is flawed!! Very flawed!!! If you have to go to separate app just to do some calculation or turn on the LED torch that is rotten concept my friends.

    Apps caught on because e-store retailers pushed them very hard onto consumers. Some years before iPhone there were some good integrated app stores like Play from Sony Ericsson. Most of the folks in US missed it because SE was and still is invisible in that market but in Europe it was quite successful. Number of apps and games were limited but still it preceded iPhone App Store. Apple just took that idea and brought it to a whole another level. Huge level to say at least

    Unfortunately App Stores are now the major way of income to some companies (Apple, Google, Nokia, etc) and they will continue to push it and cash in. It cant get any better if you have to make an app for playing music and an app for streaming video. That's two apps and two times the charge to put it into a catalog! App Store retailers love it! And for some reason stupid consumers love it too! Just like they love iPods and iTunes that are meant for people to enjoying listening the music and yet they are the biggest degradation of music quality and reproduction.

    Truth is apps have to be integrated into each other very tightly kind of like extension rather than separate apps.

    Imagine if you can just start typing the numbers into your phone and you automatically get options for math functions, suddenly dialer becomes calculator without need to go to launcher page and click on calculator app! Or how about this: You type Footlocker, Best Buy, etc. and your default contacts app shows you the phone number, address and show on map location of the nearest store you were looking for by downloading, lets say yellow pages, database based on you GPS location without any need to go to Google Maps, Where and other similar apps.

    Or what about simply typing "gas price" and universalsearch results get you the nearest gas stations with gas prices all in a list, again pulled from database depending on your GSP location. You click on a desired result and you get the map or driving directions to get to it. And once again absolutely no need to go into any app.

    And what about that LED torch? Why not just simply run your fingers over it to turn it on or use gesture area to make a unique gesture to turn on the torch?

    Palm Pre has one HUGE advantage to other phones and that is gesture area, they just need to utilize it a lot more. For starters they have to make shortcut gestures which will take you to different apps like mail, bluetooth, camers, etc. That would be the first step to some universal OS and App integration.

    My whole point is that mobile apps are so basic to be a separate entity and if you are a developer its better to put more little apps as features or extension into one big app! And if OS manufacturers let us use APIs that will give us a tighter integration into their operating system possibilities are endless!

    BTW we are taking a part in Palm challenge and hopefully we will have a chance to demonstrate a lot more productive "apps" instead of just theory
  3. #43  
    vladi,

    To simply answer why "everything" isn't just built into a phone: bloated. I guarantee many wouldn't want everything just bundled into one feature/application. People prefer options, they prefer extendability (aka applications).
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by priller View Post
    Yes, it is all about advertising/marketing. You can have great features, but if nobody knows about it, it ain't going to sell. Likewise, a total POS can be a hot item, if enough buzz and hype is put out there in the media.

    The many "commercials Palm should have made" on YouTube do showcase the features. Viewers have left comments like ... "wow, that's pretty cool", "I didn't know it could do that" or "were all those apps running at once?". Why isn't Palm getting that message out? The sales people in stores certainly aren't telling people about it .... they are busy shoving Droid in everybody's face. You got to flood the media and create the buzz.

    The app body-count mania is an issue. But, it's only because of perception. People don't seem to care that of 10,000 apps, 9,500 are pointless, useless or redundant. That's hard to change.

    Also, I really think that the whole "phone for mom" thing had a negative affect on Palm sales. All of a sudden everything Palm became something for girls.
    So girls are too stupid to use a smartphone? That it has been directed at moms make it automatically somehow sub standard? I am sick to death of this argument. I am a girl, and I have signed up to be a Palm Dev, and I have made UI's for the iPhone, I do websites, am about to do a digital musician course and have used computers since the age of 6. Why is 'girl' or 'mom' derogatory? I am also a mom. The Palm Pre is not pink. It does not have Playboy emblazoned all over it. It is not 'girly' in that stereotypical way, if it was I wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole. If men are so insecure that they would write a phone off because there was a 'mom' in the advert then they have some serious growing up to do. That sort of argument is best kept to 5 year old boys in playgrounds who go 'ewww I'm not playing with a girl!'
    Absolutely mental Depeche Mode fan since 1988, iPhone themer, app UI design, PM me for anything graphics-wise.
  5. #45  
    It's more a lack of advertising and carrier support that's keeping Palm behind. Sprint at least tried doing a big push for the initial launch, but VZ did less than squat for the Plus. If the salespeople aren't directing the average Joe customer toward the device and instead recommending something else (Droid), the Pre is going to lose a lot of sales.
  6. vladi's Avatar
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    vladi,

    To simply answer why "everything" isn't just built into a phone: bloated. I guarantee many wouldn't want everything just bundled into one feature/application. People prefer options, they prefer extendability (aka applications).
    What people want is arguable, I personally believe that majority don't know what they want unless they see it or experience it but people do take what is served to them. But that is beside the point.

    My philosophy is that on mobile platforms most of the things should be done within standby OS or default applications in form of extensions rather than separate apps. Seamless integration of extended feauters within default contact or messaging/mail application would be a lot more enjoyable user experience and I stand by that. That is much harder to pull than just creating an "app for that" but if done right it saves a lot more time and I guarantee it just feel more proper than constantly looking for apps in a catalog and opening and closing them.

    That is just like saying that my internet browser doesn't need Pop-Up blocker because i can just install the application for that as soon as I find it on the internetz And we are exactly at this point in time when it comes to mobile experience! Its unpolished and almost out of its infant stage; mobile apps are weak, integration within OS is weak and productivity is not there just yet. Entertainment is the most mature factor on mobile devices so far but the rest needs a catching up to do.

    On a side note in case of Palm I bet the major reason why their current phones are not loaded with "full feature set of dumb phones" like bluetooth exchange, voice control, etc. is because of OS updates. They want to demonstrate that they are keeping the OS alive by updating it very often. This could mean they've crippled it at the birth on purpose but that is their choice of strategy. I am thankful to them for bringing the WebOS in mobile device market and I truly believe this OS has the greatest potential. I even expect that further development of WebOS will take even more avantgarde approach compared to competition.
    Last edited by vladi; 03/07/2010 at 07:21 AM.
  7. #47  
    No, its barely even the apps. Its the way they're marketing the phone. Go to your local sprint/verizon store. THEY KNOW NOTHING.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    I think people get a bit hung-up on personal preference - if 100,000 kids download and pay for a fart app and they enjoy it, then that is the sign of a successful ecology. If an individual user wants the app or not is irrelevant.
    That was my point. People are hung up on my 99% like it's an accurate scientific observation or something. It was just a NOMINAL estimate to make a point. And, I was thinking of the fart apps when I made the post, haha!
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Black View Post
    No, its barely even the apps. Its the way they're marketing the phone. Go to your local sprint/verizon store. THEY KNOW NOTHING.
    I have to agree. I've gone into Bell Mobility stores, Best Buy stores and Future Shop stores and the sales people are completely ignorant of what this phone is capable of doing. It is treated by sales staff as if it is some poor orphan phone. I think they stay away from it because they don't really understand it and it is tough to sell something you don't feel comfortable with. Lots easier to sell something you know and fully understand.

    I'd be eager to hear from actual salespeople as to what their view is on the Pre and WebOS in general. If they are members of this site, they probably fall into the minority of salespeople who actually understand WebOS. What are your thoughts and are we right in believing that the salespeople are completely ignorant when it comes to WebOS (or the majority anyway)?
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by ego2001 View Post
    As far as my experience, 99% of the apps for iPhone are stupid. I don't even care about them. The remaining 1% contains ones that are either already implemented, are on schedule to come out, or, not ready yet. I can wait.

    Quality>Quantity
    I couldn't agree more. I have an iPhone and rarely ever use the apps that I've downloaded. That's not to say that there isn't useful one out there...just far and few in between. Outside of Rhapsody, I haven't really found one that I needed that wasn't in Palms store. I do wish there were more free apps....or the ability to 'try' apps before buying.

    Arc
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  11. Quintus's Avatar
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by arcanic View Post
    I couldn't agree more. I have an iPhone and rarely ever use the apps that I've downloaded. That's not to say that there isn't useful one out there...just far and few in between. Outside of Rhapsody, I haven't really found one that I needed that wasn't in Palms store. I do wish there were more free apps....or the ability to 'try' apps before buying.

    Arc
    The average price of these apps are so low (between $1-$10) that offering a "trial period" would completely destroy this ecosystem. Most people pay the $1 just to try it out and then discard it. IMHO, the whole apps ecosystem would fall if you could try the apps out in advance because 99% of the time, you probably won't go back to buy it at the end of the trial period. You've gotten your fix and you are ready to move on.

    It is actually brilliant marketing technique that relies more on the quantity of downloads than the quality of the app. The developer with the best eye candy wins at the ultimate expense of quality apps which may be far superior or much more productive but don't have a glossy cover.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by warthogcrewchief View Post
    I have had a chance to look over some of the apps, patches and themes. I don't think it's a matter of not having enough apps, quality or not. As some others have stated, its about bringing in new customers, and apps have a little bit to do with it, but I feel there needs to be more publicity.
    This. If no ones knows about your phone how do they know how many apps you have or if you have any apps at all? They don't b/c the uniformed buyer, which is the majority knows nothing about the webOS or the phones Palm offers. Lack of advertising that really tells what webOS is about is why Palm is behind. It has nothing to do with apps.

    Palm's slogan needs to be 'Freedom'. Advertise better. That starts with showing what webOS is really about. And then when the app cat hits 2,000 apps, instead of saying a specific number they can just say 'and we have thousands of apps'.
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by pumpa View Post
    So girls are too stupid to use a smartphone? That it has been directed at moms make it automatically somehow sub standard? I am sick to death of this argument. I am a girl, and I have signed up to be a Palm Dev, and I have made UI's for the iPhone, I do websites, am about to do a digital musician course and have used computers since the age of 6. Why is 'girl' or 'mom' derogatory? I am also a mom. The Palm Pre is not pink. It does not have Playboy emblazoned all over it. It is not 'girly' in that stereotypical way, if it was I wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole. If men are so insecure that they would write a phone off because there was a 'mom' in the advert then they have some serious growing up to do. That sort of argument is best kept to 5 year old boys in playgrounds who go 'ewww I'm not playing with a girl!'
    Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying this. It still amazes that people think that somehow have a mom in the commercial makes the phone less worthy. And yes, a good number of people on this forum who spout the crap about the mom commercials are best likened to 5 year old boys in playgrounds who go 'ewww I'm not playing with a girl'. hehe
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by themirthfulswami View Post
    It's more a lack of advertising and carrier support that's keeping Palm behind. Sprint at least tried doing a big push for the initial launch, but VZ did less than squat for the Plus. If the salespeople aren't directing the average Joe customer toward the device and instead recommending something else (Droid), the Pre is going to lose a lot of sales.
    I agree. But now is the time where Palm has to do their own commercials and not depend on the carriers. When they get to ATT, ATT isn't going to pimp webOS as hard as they can. Palm has to develop the commercials.
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  15. ndz
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    #55  
    Palm would do better if they focussed on business use instead of gaming. Everyone knows blackberry OS is getting long in the tooth and that's the market to go after. Since when did previous palm users care about games? I would remove all games from the app cat if I had the option. Also, advertise the touchstone. Voice dial and more rugged hardware.......
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by playboy View Post
    Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying this. It still amazes that people think that somehow have a mom in the commercial makes the phone less worthy.
    playboy and pumpa: You're both right ... stupid comment on my part. It comes out of frustration that Palm and VZ are not spending there advertising dollars wisely and focusing on highlighting the strengths of webOS.
  17. #57  
    I think the issue is twofold. The palm needs marketing to attract new casual users, but they need apps to retain old users from the pre-webOS days. The marketing will also retain the faddish casual users who will dump the pre in a heartbeat just because their peers don't use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ndz View Post
    Palm would do better if they focussed on business use instead of gaming.
    This is a good point, but lets assume the games are only to expand the market base to casual users with no need for the productivity apps that made palm famous in the first place. These casual users have no idea how their phones actually work and only want music and games.

    Quote Originally Posted by ndz View Post
    Everyone knows blackberry OS is getting long in the tooth and that's the market to go after.
    Until the palm folks get serious about business apps like RIM has, they will be locked out of the market. Take a look at BlackBerry Enterprise Server this gives IT departments a real reason to go with Blackberry solutions corporate wide. Palm should have implemented something like this 15 years ago when the were pushing the workpad with IBM.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by priller View Post
    playboy and pumpa: You're both right ... stupid comment on my part. It comes out of frustration that Palm and VZ are not spending there advertising dollars wisely and focusing on highlighting the strengths of webOS.
    My comments weren't directed at anyone in particular. Just folks who make comments about aiming at women or moms. I'm frustrated at Palm as well for the horrible business and advertising decisions, but Palm can still make the right decisions going forward. They just have to be willing to spend the money on a television campaign that is Apple like in nature and not tie themselves into exclusivity with any carrier for longer than 3 months.
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by gilesjp1 View Post
    Take a look at BlackBerry Enterprise Server this gives IT departments a real reason to go with Blackberry solutions corporate wide. Palm should have implemented something like this 15 years ago when the were pushing the workpad with IBM.
    Why implement something like that when you can use Microsoft Exchange. Palm doesn't have to maintain servers and worry about providing support for a Palm enterprise solution.
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by fussnfeathers View Post
    Mmm........well, if you take a look at Apple compared to Palm, how many fart apps are in each store? That should be telling you something........the number means nothing if the majority of those are painfully useless. What I've seen of the Palm app catalog so far is the majority are well done, useful for a good chunk of people, and it IS only nine months old. I've also noticed that the majority of the apps that are there are launch day or near to it, and updated. Dig back through Apple's store, how many still exist after three years? Two years? Heck, download a new iPhone app, is it there next week?

    Not saying Palm's store is perfect, it isn't. I'm a cyclist, I wouldn't mind a GPS app for more intensive tracking than my old Cateye Enduro 2 can do, and there is one.......just not quite what I have in mind. But I have seen stuff come out lately that was pretty much mindblowing........ok, so maybe for you, Earthworm Jim isn't exactly WOW, but for me.........man, I absolutely loved that game, to be able to play it again just plain rocks.

    It'll get there. People just have to bear a timeframe in mind. Comparing the hardware and built-in features that the phones come with is fine, somewhat, as long as the buyer remembers that the iPhone has drastically changed three times in three years. The Pre is still first generation. We're getting more support in the app catalog, increasingly so, but you can't really compare an app store for a completely new OS on a brand new product to an app store that's got a two year headstart on a basically dumbed down 10 year old OS core.
    iPhones owners like to have fun and the popularity of the fart apps is just one way to have some light hearted fun. My coworker uses his iPhone to play these sounds while in the stall. It's makes for a good laugh when you walk into the restroom and suddenly hear it. I disagree with you entirely about the appstore. Apps from day one are still present today. It offers more quality and quantity choices than any other appstore on the planet.

    This perceived quality and openness in the Pre store mean nothing if the store doesn't have what you need.
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