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  1.    #1  
    What is the big deal about Adobe giving a firm date for Flash or Palm giving a firm date for WebOS? It is not a matter of national security or even competitive advantage, since all the competitors know that it is coming. I really am beginning to wonder if Flash on the Pre is just vaporware. Yes, I have seen the video of it running, however, I don't know what special specs that Pre has. My Pre, which is currently loaded with stock applications (and not homebrew) has trouble handling more that 3 cards at times. Flash is a resource hog, as everyone knows. I understand the NDA prevents developers from giving details about updates, but even Apple sometimes advises of the release dates in advance. I now expect 1.4 to come out prior to the end of the month, but I don't think that it is going to be the big deal that we are all hoping for. WMA will probably still be missing, the camera software will not be updated, and full access to the GPU will not be available. Right now, we don't have any of the big guns in apps: Epocrates (supposedly coming), WebMD, iheart Radio, Google Earth, Skype, Shazam (limited by the SDK), a banking application, etc. I really like the phone's form factor and potential, but with all of the Android news lately, I am feeling that I may have made the wrong decision getting the Pre. And, I came to the Pre from the iPhone 3G.
  2. #2  
    You know, I feel the same way. I look at HTC's devices and sometimes I wish I had gone Android but the one thing we have that other devices don't is FREQUENT updates. I think a big part of the unsure release date is that Palm is pushing hard to get these updates through and unexpected hurdles delay the release. Apple on the other hand, have the update ready much earlier than the release date just in case there are hurdles.

    I wish we had a lot of those apps too and I'm sure they'll come. DataViz has responded to our wants for a better DocsToGo, for example.
  3. #3  
    Wow. If you're that unhappy, might I suggest a different phone?

    No manufacturer gives a set date for release of a product. Do that, and you have a liability problem. As far as Flash goes, its been in developer hands for a little over a month, so it is coming. Just might take a little longer than the rumors posted all over the place. Yippee. Which would you prefer, a longer wait for a proper product, or did you perchance love Vista?

    I mean, c'mon here. Both Android and the iPhone's dumbed down OSX have been out for more than three years. WebOS isn't even a year on the market yet. Welcome to what we like to call "early adopter land". If you don't like being somewhat of a guinea pig, don't buy the latest and greatest. Stick with something proven.
  4. nodforce's Avatar
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    #4  
    although I agree with you for the most part, fussnfeathers, I really don't like that excuse for not being on par. You should build on the success of present products when you come out with a competing product. It's like saying dvd's should be better than blurays since they've been out longer (rough analogy but you get the point.)

    all in all, I agree the that webos is doing well. I believe it has potential to be the best mobile (maybe one day tablet?) OS out there. I just wish that day would come sooner.
  5. #5  
    I'm kinda with you on wishing to know dates, but people freak out when rumors turn out false, what would happen if palm had to delay becuase of some carrier problem?

    Also, I know everyone keeps saying flash is a "resource hog" but you really should consider it a completely different farm animal on the phones. They are quite different and specifically made to take advantage of the gpu (which normal flash wasn't). Basically flash does all it's magic using the CPU, and let me tell you, there are some things really meant to be done by a graphics card. But that's the thing, using the gpu is near 10-100x more efficient, plus the Pre's graphics card isn't even used currently.

    Basically the reason it's taking adobe so long is they never intended for flash to be run with the help of a gpu, it was expected that better computers would come out with advancements and just deal with the added load. So basically they have to take instructions and a language made to be run only on the cpu, and optimize and redirect alot of instruction to the unique gpu of each phone. But it's not like every phone has directx either, so adobe is strong in a sense that once they write it smartly it should be able to be run on any OS with a sufficient graphics card/cpu combo.
  6. #6  
    wildcatman, did you even read this article: http://www.precentral.net/how-webos-...-process-works

    Geesh, would everyone quit harping on Palm. IT IS NOT IN THEIR CONTROL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You want to harp on someone, call your carrier and ask them why in the world they cannot perform their verification tests more quickly!

    (No, I don't work for Palm or carrier or anything even closely related to this industry, I am just someone who is sick of people who just ***** for *****ing's sake. Palm said it would be out before the end of February, I don't know about you, but may calendar still says there are days remaining in February. Now if it gets to be March 1st and it isn't out, then we all should start to *****.)
  7. #7  
    Also factor in all the developers who want to get Flash based products on the market the day of release. All sorts of bugs are going to be found once you throw a piece of code at 10,000 people and tell them to have at it.

    I didn't mean that Android or Apple are better than a newer product. If I thought that, I'd be over on some Android forum discussing my shiny new Droid. Just pointing out that those two OS's have a massive headstart. It's gonna take some time for things to really start to flow for WebOS, is all. There wasn't even an app store for the iPhone for a year. Just the fact that we Pre users had a small, steadily growing store out of the gate is pretty darn good.

    There's a lot to like already, you're just early to the game. Give it another year for all this to catch on.
  8. miata's Avatar
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    #8  
    Tells me that Adobe is like most other software companies in that they don't know for sure when something will be released until it is almost done, passed QA, etc.
  9.    #9  
    Fact: Adobe announced Flash for the Pre early last year, and said it would be available by the end of the 2009.

    Confirmed: Palm Pre To Support Flash - Adobe Flash - Gizmodo

    To the poster above that mentioned how to read a calendar, my calendar says that it is 2010. That's why I consider it vaporware.

    Also, Android has not been out for 3 years. The first Android phone hit the market on 10/22/2008. Yes, Palm has been good to update the Pre, but it was billed as an iPhone killer. That, my friends, it is certainly is not (at least not yet). There are many, many things the iPhone (and Android) can do that the Pre cannot. Palm knew what their competition was doing, but still put out a device not capable of going toe-to-toe at launch with its competitors.

    If we wait a year (as was suggested) for Palm to catch up, do you think Apple and Google are just going sit idly by? Of course not.
  10. #10  
    /shrug Like I said, if it bothers you so much, nobody is forcing you to keep the phone. Nothing new comes out of the box with all the bells and whistles of a more mature piece.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by nodforce View Post
    although I agree with you for the most part, fussnfeathers, I really don't like that excuse for not being on par. You should build on the success of present products when you come out with a competing product. It's like saying dvd's should be better than blurays since they've been out longer (rough analogy but you get the point.)
    Software refinement and optimization takes time and resources. Ideally each new release should be better and include more features than the previous one, so one would expect an older OS to be more refined, have more apps, and be more feature complete than a brand new one. The flip side of that is that the old OS may be near the end of its evolution and cannot get any better without a radical transformation - that was the point that Palm was at with PalmOS.

    Sure, the older, more refined mobile operating systems and the new ones have to compete in the same market. The customer has to evaluate each on the features that they provide and decide if the innovations of the new platform, even if they are a little rough around the edges, are better than the old platform which is more polished, has more apps, etc. and choose which one they like best.

    Even though lots of people here seem to have iPhone or Android envy, if you look at the world smartphone market share, it is Symbian by a large margin, then RIM, Apple, Windows Mobile, Android, etc. As long as Palm continues to evolve webOS and improve the devices it is released on in the future, it has a chance to pick up new customers - from people who are new to smartphones or are tired of what they currently have.

    Your analogy is flawed in that the basic technology and specs of DVDs haven't changed in a number of years. BluRay was created to be better than DVDs from the day 1. Think of it like an athlete. A young draft pick may be slick and have potential, but doesn't have the training and experience that a slightly older player has in that sport. But at some point, they have to compete on the same field. Palm is like a team that held on to it's QB (PalmOS) for far too long. Sure, it did things great 'back in the day' and still could depending on the situation, but it's too old for the league. Now it has a rookie (webOS) that has to play with the current veterans, but still needs some improvements to be just as good.
  12. #12  
    I think a better example would be The Sims than


    After so many expansions (8 to be exact) the engine becomes old and they restart it, better graphics, more capabilities, but you loose everything from the expansions, but it's so much better at its base. Similar to WebOS, it may seem like we've lost some of the features and total work, but its core is so much better than anything else was when it started, and even better than alot of phones, all it takes is time and it'll come out ahead of every other phone of it's generation.
  13. #13  
    stop crying. Palm is doing it RIGHT. INSTEAD OF THROWING HALF-baked updates that are fuull of bugs, they make us wait a few days. So be it.

    granted, I get excited about the updates, but I have faith that they will WORK. Let Palm do Palm. If you don't like it, build your own damned phone!
  14. digink's Avatar
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by nodforce View Post
    although I agree with you for the most part, fussnfeathers, I really don't like that excuse for not being on par. You should build on the success of present products when you come out with a competing product. It's like saying dvd's should be better than blurays since they've been out longer (rough analogy but you get the point.)

    all in all, I agree the that webos is doing well. I believe it has potential to be the best mobile (maybe one day tablet?) OS out there. I just wish that day would come sooner.
    Thats much easier said than done. They developed a BRAND new OS with revolutionary qualities from the GROUND UP while trying to remain competitive without waiting in the wood work to go under.

    As much as we'd like to believe a company can design a flawless OS right off the bat it doesn't happen, welcome to software development. The major thing is Palm is making progress, at least give them more than 2 years to prove themselves, it's been over 6 months and people are already getting frustrated? Have some damn patience.
  15. #15  
    Um. It took six years for the Blu Ray media to standardize. And another two years for the features touted as being better than HD-DVD to even touch the market, and then, if you wanted BD-Live, you had to buy a whole new player. Not counting the PS3, of course. That's a heck of a long time in development, then released with the promise of future upgrades, but no guarantee.

    I wasn't the one who brought up that comparison btw.

    On topic, WebOS got started when.......2008? After Elevation stepped in. The Pre and the OS were shown in early 2009, then released later that summer. That's a year and a half, roughly, total development time for both the OS and the hardware to run it. Not bad, I'd say.

    I'll say it again. If you jump on a brand new, untested product, you're going to have a waiting period before it gets fully revved up.
  16. mmarcus's Avatar
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by misterwilson View Post
    stop crying. Palm is doing it RIGHT. INSTEAD OF THROWING HALF-baked updates that are fuull of bugs, they make us wait a few days. So be it.

    granted, I get excited about the updates, but I have faith that they will WORK. Let Palm do Palm. If you don't like it, build your own damned phone!
    That's a false choice and you know it. The OP is asking for a legitimate roadmap. Palm can play all the PRPRPR $games$ $they$ $want$ $and$ $wait$ $for$ $CES$ $or$ $another$ $soapbox$ $to$ $announce$ $an$ $update$. $But$ $seriously$? $Read$ $the$ $forums$. $People$ $are$ $asking$ $legitimate$ $fundamental$ $questions$ $about$ $a$ $device$ $they$ $rely$ $on$ $daily$.

    Will the calendar be upgraded for better functionality?

    Will the OS at some point use the GPU to reduce lag?

    Will API's be updated so that advanced google products and other services will work?

    Will there be task syncing?

    Will there be desktop backup?

    ...and on and on...

    These aren't people screaming about why 1.4 didn't drop the other day, and if they are it's just impatience, not a big deal. But what they're asking for is some idea of what Palm has in mind long term. That's what the OP's asking for. That's what I'm asking for.

    If you're good buying a device for the medium to long-term without having a clue as to how it'll be developed, good for you. But your response that Palm doesn't release half-baked updates is non-sensical. Frankly, they released a half-baked OS. You tell me which is worse.

    Moreover, there are some serious Palm supporters on this site. That's good to see, Palm is the underdog right now and I'd like to see them come through. But every time someone has a complaint about the device, one of these guys pops out of the ether to tell them that they bought a cutting edge device and that Palm needs time to work out the kinks. That's fine. But if Palm really is the underdog, really did release a somewhat underdeveloped but cutting edge device...is it too much to ask that they tell us, the early adopters who are dealing with the half-baked OS but non-half-baked (and non-existent) updates what their medium and long-term roadmaps look like? I'm not looking for dates for updates. I'm looking to know if the device I organize my life with is still going to be a relatively uncompetitive and outclassed device in six months.

    Seems a fair question.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey47 View Post
    wildcatman, did you even read this article: http://www.precentral.net/how-webos-...-process-works

    Geesh, would everyone quit harping on Palm. IT IS NOT IN THEIR CONTROL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You want to harp on someone, call your carrier and ask them why in the world they cannot perform their verification tests more quickly!

    (No, I don't work for Palm or carrier or anything even closely related to this industry, I am just someone who is sick of people who just ***** for *****ing's sake. Palm said it would be out before the end of February, I don't know about you, but may calendar still says there are days remaining in February. Now if it gets to be March 1st and it isn't out, then we all should start to *****.)
    Oh now hayyyyullll!!!!!
  18. #18  
    If its a valid complaint, sure. I'd like to know about hardware fixes, in case I ever have the oreo issue. I'd like to know what the roadmap for upgraded devices is, or if there is even going to BE any. Those are all valid. The OP, however, is complaining about something that's a known standard in the tech industry. Things get delayed, the market isn't instantly flooded with new software, and you gotta remember that Garnet got so old it was unusable, Palm switched to WinMo and failed miserably, went through months of rumors about bankruptcy and sale, then went ballistic and released a whole new product nobody saw coming. Nobody's gonna be jumping on this bandwagon until its proven to be profitable.

    That's the reality. How soon it all happens is anybody's guess. And yes, I am a Palm supporter, my last four phones have been Palm, and I had no hesitation getting a Pre. But I also have a level of common sense that says this is all new, I'm not going to have the same level of variety that an older, proven product does. Not yet.
  19. nodforce's Avatar
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by hrminer92 View Post
    Software refinement and optimization takes time and resources. Ideally each new release should be better and include more features than the previous one, so one would expect an older OS to be more refined, have more apps, and be more feature complete than a brand new one. The flip side of that is that the old OS may be near the end of its evolution and cannot get any better without a radical transformation - that was the point that Palm was at with PalmOS.

    Sure, the older, more refined mobile operating systems and the new ones have to compete in the same market. The customer has to evaluate each on the features that they provide and decide if the innovations of the new platform, even if they are a little rough around the edges, are better than the old platform which is more polished, has more apps, etc. and choose which one they like best.

    Even though lots of people here seem to have iPhone or Android envy, if you look at the world smartphone market share, it is Symbian by a large margin, then RIM, Apple, Windows Mobile, Android, etc. As long as Palm continues to evolve webOS and improve the devices it is released on in the future, it has a chance to pick up new customers - from people who are new to smartphones or are tired of what they currently have.

    Your analogy is flawed in that the basic technology and specs of DVDs haven't changed in a number of years. BluRay was created to be better than DVDs from the day 1. Think of it like an athlete. A young draft pick may be slick and have potential, but doesn't have the training and experience that a slightly older player has in that sport. But at some point, they have to compete on the same field. Palm is like a team that held on to it's QB (PalmOS) for far too long. Sure, it did things great 'back in the day' and still could depending on the situation, but it's too old for the league. Now it has a rookie (webOS) that has to play with the current veterans, but still needs some improvements to be just as good.
    Now don't get me wrong, if you re read my op, I said that I honestly believe that WebOS is a superior OS. I'm just saying that some features are considered standard today, and even if you are launching a new OS, you should include those too.

    Back to your sports analogy. Its like Kobe vs Lebron. Kobe is a seasoned vet, who is called the best in the NBA. Lebron is relatively new to the league. Now everyone wants to cheer for Kobe, but I say Lebron is better. Because he can basically do everything Kobe can (some not as well, some even better). But he still has time to mature and be even better.

    That is where I believe WebOS should be right now. It is only my opinion, if you want to disagree with me do it politely like hrminer92 did, I don't want any flaming.
  20. #20  
    Well, the OP's rant seems to be blaming Palm for why Adobe's Flash for mobile is delayed. I guess that the OP has missed articles on Engadget and All things D. There were article last week or this week on those sites where Adobe has said that Flash will show up in the first half of 2010. So the date is now a bit more wide open. Don't go blaming Palm or any other manufacturer for delays that deal with another company's software. When Adobe is ready to release Flash mobile they will. Palm, HTC, Motorola, Samsung or anyone has nothing to do with Adobe's timeline.

    As far as not telling you when WebOS updates are coming, Palm did provide you with a date of Feb 2010. The month isn't over as I far I know. The link you were provided for the article on software releases is a good one to continue to read if you find yourself getting frustrated.
    Are you trying to hurt me?

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