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  1. #61  
    clearly untidyguy is a troll.

    palms stock price even at $9 is over 300% up from beginning of 09

    they have sold millions of webos device to date and will sell millions more.

    please be pessimistic some place else..
  2. Trist's Avatar
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    #62  
    Where's my Troll Buster Ultra 5000?
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Sure there is. But the beauty of the stock price is that it represents the expectation of the market about the viability of a company. If you have better information then you can certainly profit by buying the stock at an unreasonably low price. It's certainly just as valid as the notion that the company will do fine because someone likes the OS or is sentimental about their Treo. I also don't know where one goes to get brownie points for doing well with fewer employees.
    If a company has little operating income and the stock is in the tank, then there's a pretty good chance they're in trouble. However, in the Palm's case, their stock is up (unless you pick and choose a snapshot to slant the numbers), and with the offering late last year, they have plenty of operating income for quite some time. Not sure what about that makes people think they're failing...oh yeah, decrease in market share.

    The loss of market share would be a factor, except that the market is now much, much larger than when Palm had more of a foothold. They don't get brownie points for being a smaller operation, but at the same time, they don't need to sell 10 M units a year to be successful. Is the profit margin less than it was five years ago? Probably. But that can be said of practically any technological innovator. If Apple could find a niche to co-exist with Microsoft, there's no reason Palm can't find a niche to co-exist with RIM, Apple, Symbian, etc.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by iamsedated View Post
    And those predictions have been dead on accurate. Palm went from being a market leader with big double digit market share to the "are they still making phones?" position in just a few short years They've lost over 50% of the shrinking market share they had less than 2 years ago. They got some other suckers to put in a bunch of extra cash for the promise of Web OS and they've been burning it faster that Charlie Sheen in the Bunny Ranch.
    I think it's time for a little factchecking.

    The biggest one is that these folks were "right" about Palm's demise. How could they have been right, Palm's still around. You can't say "xyz will mean the demise of the company" with any credibility, while the company keeps chugging along.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    your argument is so generic in 2008, obviously consider no fact since webOS.
    ...
    Dood, don't confuse him with facts. You'll blow the (delusional) fantasy.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    Man, I feel bad for all those suckers that spend all that time in school getting MBAs and Finance degrees when you can predict the success or failure of a company buy looking up a 6 month stock history.

    C'mon people, there is so much more to the operational viability of a publicly traded company. This throwing up of stock prices and market share numbers is laughable.
    Burger flippers.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by badjokes View Post
    clearly untidyguy is a troll.
    palms stock price even at $9 is over 300% up from beginning of 09
    they have sold millions of webos device to date and will sell millions more.
    please be pessimistic some place else..
    Respectfully, this is what I mean by being delusional, head in the sand. Darth Mo is right. You can throw up charts and all this nonsense but there are a few items that need immediate answers. What is telling is that the expectations were way up beginning of the year and have plummeted since then. Perhaps everyone is holding their breath hoping that Verizon's numbers will show viability. Selling millions of WebOS devices means little when other companies are selling tens of millions. These items represent significant problems that need to be dealt with... now.

    1) Cash Problem: Despite all your optimism about how awesome the stock price is compared to beginning of year and "millions" of devices sold, Palm lost $165 MILLION in their Q1 last year!!!! That's right after the Sprint release if I recall. Imagine what happens when the new iPhone and Android devices (and RIMM's) are out. If burn rate is only 125 million, Palm is well out of cash in 4 quarters.

    2) Sales and Growth Problem: After the initial release, the number of WebOS device sales have plummeted. Say what you want about the toolkit being released, etc. This was Palm's window of opportunity. Sell as many phones as possible before the new iPhone and Google phones. They screwed up. The Dev kit was delivered months late and Palm is patting itself on the back for reaching 1000 mediocre apps. They have 2 more months to blow people out of the water before the new iPhone, Blackberry and Windows Mobile announcements happen and 1 month before the Nexus One and others on other carriers. Time is running out and Palm is down to under 6% of smartphone owners, shrinking, and time is running out.

    So say what you want about stock price from beginning of last year. Tell me that you sold three million devices. Unless there is some rabbit flying out of Palm's electronic ****, they are in for one rough ride by a couple of other phone manufacturers named Bubba. They better put the pedal to the metal right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I think it's time for a little factchecking.The biggest one is that these folks were "right" about Palm's demise. How could they have been right, Palm's still around. You can't say "xyz will mean the demise of the company" with any credibility, while the company keeps chugging along.
    You mean chugging like a fat man trying to do a triathlon up a Denver mountain? They were resurrected thanks to a cash infusion years ago. Since then they have done nothing but burn cash and tell the world that WebOS was Jesus in a handheld phone. WebOS generated a lot of initial excitement that Palm finally did have a product to sell but now that it has worn off, the news doesn't look good. I don't consider having a pulse and watching from the sideline impressive. Their demise is now inevitable given the extremely poor execution and hence the rumors of Palm being bought by another player. As I said, Palm better sell a TON of phones over the next 2 months and better have something MUCH better than the Pre Plus and a lot more solutions by the time the new iPhone is released. I wouldn't want to take those odds.
    Last edited by iamsedated; 02/10/2010 at 12:39 AM.
  8. zeuswsu's Avatar
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    #68  
    i think all Palm needs to do to sell a **** load of their hardware is lower the Pre subsidized price to $100-125 and somehow get verizon to advertise their phone a little more. They should be marketing themselves right now as the cheaper alternative to the droid and WM phones....Of course that's just my opinion and I'm usually wrong
  9. #69  
    snapdragon? noo it needs the brand new OMAP4 processor will blow every thing else out, capable of handling 3 different streams of 1080P video at once, now thats some serious processing power and the pre2 better have it. palm will make it, sprint and verizon should take marketing notes from bell canada, their pre marketing was spot on.

    one other thing. they should create a better incentive for the sales people to sell palm products over others in the sprint or verizon line up. if the sales people are also pushing it and it makes the iob a little bit easier.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiddlekins View Post
    Well one area where I'm ahead is I'm not coming across as a condescending jerk.

    Your challenge is cute. Try this one: Name one phone that offers a significantly better combination of hardware and software for $150.
    Hilarious. You start name-calling because I called your bluff, and you obviously can't defend your position. Very telling.

    I would answer your new challenge, but you would undoubtedly move the goalposts again and act even more childish and offended. Next time, you might ask me to name a better phone on Sprint that rhymes with "Whee" with a 3.1-inch screen. Who knows?
  11. #71  
    To put things further in perspective there have been many articles written about "Smartphones for physicians" with most flocking to iphone. I spoke with a Medical Publisher who said that they've migrated their products for iphone and are now working on Android OS. Plan is to develop WebOs products some time in the future depending on sales.

    Marketing to Moms is a poor choice, you're definitely telling the younger crowd that this phone is not for them. Moms will not like the lack of a VKP.

    I like the size and shape of the PPP, but they do need a phone with a larger screen to attract gamers and something that feels sturdier.

    VKP? Still at a loss.

    I do think that the Pre Plus KPD has a design flaw. Texting on the Pixi was much easier as the keys stand out more and your fingers can differentiate between adjacent keys better. On the PP the curved shape recesses the keys and even though I'm getting better, the feel is not quite right.
  12. glenada's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by tripsbacks View Post
    I have to admit even though I liked some of the Pre commercials, both Sprint and Verizon dropped the ball when it came to marketing the Pre. Of course phone buffs like ourselves already new about the Pre, but the casual phone user has no idea what is out there except whatever they see or hear on TV. Droid had a totally badass add campaign that almost made me want to buy one even though the form factor is **** ugly!
    Marketing sells more than a product ever will, no matter how good it is.
    Verizon is known for its ****-ugly phones.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by iamsedated View Post
    Respectfully, this is what I mean by being delusional, head in the sand. Darth Mo is right. You can throw up charts and all this nonsense but there are a few items that need immediate answers. What is telling is that the expectations were way up beginning of the year and have plummeted since then. Perhaps everyone is holding their breath hoping that Verizon's numbers will show viability. Selling millions of WebOS devices means little when other companies are selling tens of millions. These items represent significant problems that need to be dealt with... now.

    1) Cash Problem: Despite all your optimism about how awesome the stock price is compared to beginning of year and "millions" of devices sold, Palm lost $165 MILLION in their Q1 last year!!!! That's right after the Sprint release if I recall. Imagine what happens when the new iPhone and Android devices (and RIMM's) are out. If burn rate is only 125 million, Palm is well out of cash in 4 quarters.

    2) Sales and Growth Problem: After the initial release, the number of WebOS device sales have plummeted. Say what you want about the toolkit being released, etc. This was Palm's window of opportunity. Sell as many phones as possible before the new iPhone and Google phones. They screwed up. The Dev kit was delivered months late and Palm is patting itself on the back for reaching 1000 mediocre apps. They have 2 more months to blow people out of the water before the new iPhone, Blackberry and Windows Mobile announcements happen and 1 month before the Nexus One and others on other carriers. Time is running out and Palm is down to under 6% of smartphone owners, shrinking, and time is running out.

    So say what you want about stock price from beginning of last year. Tell me that you sold three million devices. Unless there is some rabbit flying out of Palm's electronic ****, they are in for one rough ride by a couple of other phone manufacturers named Bubba. They better put the pedal to the metal right now.


    You mean chugging like a fat man trying to do a triathlon up a Denver mountain? They were resurrected thanks to a cash infusion years ago. Since then they have done nothing but burn cash and tell the world that WebOS was Jesus in a handheld phone. WebOS generated a lot of initial excitement that Palm finally did have a product to sell but now that it has worn off, the news doesn't look good. I don't consider having a pulse and watching from the sideline impressive. Their demise is now inevitable given the extremely poor execution and hence the rumors of Palm being bought by another player. As I said, Palm better sell a TON of phones over the next 2 months and better have something MUCH better than the Pre Plus and a lot more solutions by the time the new iPhone is released. I wouldn't want to take those odds.
    You're on the right track but you're too worried about competition. Palm needs to worry about Palm. All investors want to see is some growth..not apple like numbers or even android like numbers. That Palm went through cash is understandable. A new product, introducing to carriers that are "new" again for them, horrible ads but cash spent nonetheless, app catalog, etc. I didn't expect profits for awhile.

    What's important is to see growth in sales. That decrease in sales from the last two reported quarters was troubling. We won't know if they've improved til next quarter results.

    Getting on verizon was important. Not for an immediate sales spurt but to give Palm some solid footing and an acknowledgment from the number one carrier in the US. AT&T will further this.

    But one they're established on the carriers, i would like to see Palm concentrate on building up the Palm brand name. I don't want a cheaper alternative to the iphone & androids, but a high quality premium alternative. All these phones take the same plans, and Palm needs to be unique..but in a better way..not a cheaper way.

    I don't see the Pre as something to continue with as it just has too many issues but has served its purpose. Let it live up to its name. It'll be interesting to see what Palm has in mind later this year though.
  14. #74  
    Five Things RIMM Must Do To Survive

    I think rimm should buy palm.

    It would be a win win for both. rimm lacks a modern OS, palm is in a financial hole.
  15. mario8267's Avatar
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    #75  
    I have had the iphone 3gs and the droid and I can honestly say the palm pre plus blows the droid away by comparison! Webos is great and hopefully verizon starys selling more of them! Android is so slow and gets bogged down so easily... I love the multitasking with webos. The only thing that takes getting used to is the keyboard.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by iamsedated View Post
    ...
    They were resurrected thanks to a cash infusion years ago. Since then they have done nothing but burn cash and tell the world that WebOS was Jesus in a handheld phone. WebOS generated a lot of initial excitement that Palm finally did have a product to sell but now that it has worn off, the news doesn't look good. I don't consider having a pulse and watching from the sideline impressive. Their demise is now inevitable given the extremely poor execution and hence the rumors of Palm being bought by another player. As I said, Palm better sell a TON of phones over the next 2 months and better have something MUCH better than the Pre Plus and a lot more solutions by the time the new iPhone is released. I wouldn't want to take those odds.
    Actually, they never told the world any thing remotely similar to that. That's simply your spin on it. Your recent referances to Colligan's role with Palm pretty clearly indicates (to me) that your information is not only skewed, but old information (he left Palm several months ago). Yes Palm lost money last quarter. They anticipated losing money last quarter. Actually, they anticipate losing money this quarter as well. That's the nature of recovering a business. Had their "business plan" included an promised profit this quarter, they wouldn't have had many investors, because they wouldn't have been able to show how.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by badjokes View Post
    Five Things RIMM Must Do To Survive

    I think rimm should buy palm.

    It would be a win win for both. rimm lacks a modern OS, palm is in a financial hole.
    You might be on to something with that one. I could see that working if they did the following:
    • Clearly seperate their BES (Blackberry Enterprise Server) as a distint entity, more aggressively license the BES client to other platforms.
    • Allow the Palm design team to handle the user interface and device design.
    • Allow the Blackberry device OS team work with the WebOS team to ensure the security and functionality of the PIM on the WebOS devices were up to the same standards as the Blackberry.
    • Create a BES client for the Pre (that worked with Synergy) that included Blackberry Messenger as well as the other "Synergetic" solutions that are on the Pre (including EAS and the other cloud solutions), and allow those disparate pieces to be controlled by BES
    If they did all of these things, I think they'd have a winner. Possibly the WebOS device that had all of the above would be even branded differently. I'd buy a Palm Blackberry.
  18. gbp
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by mario8267 View Post
    I have had the iphone 3gs and the droid and I can honestly say the palm pre plus blows the droid away by comparison! Webos is great and hopefully verizon starys selling more of them! Android is so slow and gets bogged down so easily... I love the multitasking with webos. The only thing that takes getting used to is the keyboard.
    Its about the looks. While Pre is elegant , but 8 out of 10 folks like the iPhone form factor. The only way they can sell more is introduce HTC HD2 type phone.
    In couple of years folks get bored with iPhone (unless APPLE does something cool, which I guess they will). PALM should leapfrog all of the phones out there first , then back it up with marketing. I remember a phone called instink , that thing was crap , yet SPRINT advertised it so much , I see some repeat buyers for the version2 of the instink.
  19. #79  
    Getting mainstream adoption of a consumer product is treacherous and challenging. To be effective, you need a disruptive product innovation that consumers really care about, you need to hit (and dominate) a niche market, and then you need to develop the whole product so that pragmatists feel like they're buying the "safe"/ "no-brainer" option. This is all laid out in Crossing the Chasm by Geoffrey Moore. Everyone who cares to comment on precentral.net is really an "early adopter." We don't need to be convinced that the phone is great. Oftentimes, market insurgents like Palm have a substantially superior product to the market leader and are much more feature-packed. Gaining market share isn't about the features. It's about market innovation. Palm needs to show that they're the de facto standard, that they have more 3rd party support than anyone, that this handheld device will make everything go smoother. Right now, that position is clearly occupied by Apple and Blackberry.

    What Palm and Verizon are trying to do now is finally find their footing in a niche. Since Droid has been targeted towards gadget-hungry feature-obsessed males, Verizon is going the other direction and targeting the mom demographic. Reasons being that they are heavy social functionality users, where the Pre is arguably strong (with Synergy and messaging), and they are mostly ignored by advertisers pushing the smartphone race among feature/gadget-obsessed males.

    Will it work? Yes. Palm is just big enough and well-funded enough to continue to chip away. They continue to sign up with new carriers. Of course, AT&T is coming in less than 4 months and Sprint will be coming up with a new device I'm sure at the anniversary of the Pre, also within 4 months. If I were Palm, though, I would wait until iPhone announcements in the summer and work maybe 4 months to play catch up to Apple's inevitably brilliant innovations, then release a comparable or superior product.

    Palm will succeed once it finds its niche. Because it is a damn good device. Everyone here knows that.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Actually, they never told the world any thing remotely similar to that. That's simply your spin on it. Your recent referances to Colligan's role with Palm pretty clearly indicates (to me) that your information is not only skewed, but old information (he left Palm several months ago). Yes Palm lost money last quarter. They anticipated losing money last quarter. Actually, they anticipate losing money this quarter as well. That's the nature of recovering a business. Had their "business plan" included an promised profit this quarter, they wouldn't have had many investors, because they wouldn't have been able to show how.
    Once again you fail to provide any answers, just feeble, weak, pathetic attempts to show everyone else is wrong by pointing out some minor technicality you think is inaccurate.

    Thanks for teaching us all the nature of a recovering business. Palm could have announced an anticipated profit of $4 billion dollars or just "a loss." The street value of the stock is irrelevant. The fact is that until they figure out a way to stop losing $125-140 million a quarter they will be dead in one year. If they continue to lose money as a "recovering business" then they are dead pretty quickly. Since you are so enlightened, tell us what the plan is. They sold "millions" of Pres, still lost market share and TONS of money. Is it to wait until the next iPhone, which will flop, and everyone will see just how amazing WebOS is?

    Quote Originally Posted by preoccupied View Post
    Will it work? Yes. Palm is just big enough and well-funded enough to continue to chip away. They continue to sign up with new carriers. Of course, AT&T is coming in less than 4 months and Sprint will be coming up with a new device I'm sure at the anniversary of the Pre, also within 4 months. If I were Palm, though, I would wait until iPhone announcements in the summer and work maybe 4 months to play catch up to Apple's inevitably brilliant innovations, then release a comparable or superior product.
    With one year left of cash and receivables, how is Palm big enough and well funded? They aren't chipping away and keep losing the market share they had with Palm OS. You think going to AT&T with the Pre or some other decent phone will suddenly be the answer? If Palm can't sell boatloads of Pres on Verizon, they are going to flounder relying on the other carriers. So Palm is going to start to play catchup year end after Apple releases the next iPhone and others release their phones? And exactly when are they going to stop the burn? The money runs out in 2011, book or no book. I still haven't heard the plan and the niche they are trying to sell to.
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