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  1. Olidie's Avatar
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    #21  
    Yep. They need to address the speed issue. Other OS' aren't as elegant as WebOS. But when you have an operating system that is awfully slow that's a problem. On my Pre, on most days I can't even open more than 5 cards.

    I have to do luna reset every time to open Sprint Nav or play 3d games because I usually have at lest 3 cards open. Even after closing all my cards, I still get that error message.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by olidie View Post
    Yep. They need to address the speed issue. Other OS' aren't as elegant as WebOS. But when you have an operating system that is awfully slow that's a problem. On my Pre, on most days I can't even open more than 5 cards.

    I have to do luna reset every time to open Sprint Nav or play 3d games because I usually have at lest 3 cards open. Even after closing all my cards, I still get that error message.
    Admittedly, there are several homebrew apps that leak memory...badly. The webOS browser used to be notorius for this but I think that has been almost completly resolved.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by 0xel View Post
    Check this out guys - thats what we need! h**tp://***.markdeepwell.com/2009/07/accelerated-css-transforms/
    Palm has already indicated that they're looking at this, and I'm guessing this will come sooner rather than later. They've brought on some heavy hitters when it comes to Linux-based GUIs, in terms of accessing the GPU, and the way to do it with webOS will be via CSS transforms.

    The biggest question that I can't answer is: could Palm build this into the OS and make it transparent to the developer, that is, that current apps would automagically use these new methods, or would this require completely reprogramming all existent apps? If the former, then I wouldn't be shocked to see it in 1.4. If the latter then I'd be shocked to see it before 2.0.

    The most positive (in a wishing and hoping sort of way) thing I've seen Palm say is that 1.4 will bring "performance and battery life improvements." One way to accomplish both would be to utilize the GPU for the UI. The GPU would be far, far more efficient, and that's the best way I can imagine improving both performance and battery life.

    However, merely cleaning up the code so that more real work can be done by the CPU would also improve both performance and battery life. So we'll see...
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  4. #24  
    Exciting times huh I love being part of a promising young platform.
  5. stubbs's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Palm has already indicated that they're looking at this, and I'm guessing this will come sooner rather than later. They've brought on some heavy hitters when it comes to Linux-based GUIs, in terms of accessing the GPU, and the way to do it with webOS will be via CSS transforms.

    The biggest question that I can't answer is: could Palm build this into the OS and make it transparent to the developer, that is, that current apps would automagically use these new methods, or would this require completely reprogramming all existent apps? If the former, then I wouldn't be shocked to see it in 1.4. If the latter then I'd be shocked to see it before 2.0.

    The most positive (in a wishing and hoping sort of way) thing I've seen Palm say is that 1.4 will bring "performance and battery life improvements." One way to accomplish both would be to utilize the GPU for the UI. The GPU would be far, far more efficient, and that's the best way I can imagine improving both performance and battery life.

    However, merely cleaning up the code so that more real work can be done by the CPU would also improve both performance and battery life. So we'll see...

    I share your dreams, but I'm not allowing myself to think that it'll be present in 1.4. I only expect marginal gains for this update.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by SqyArc View Post
    Exciting times huh I love being part of a promising young platform.
    Me too. All lag aside I'm going to stick with WebOS from here on out. I''d love to see how far Palm (and all the Homebrewers) can take this.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    The most positive (in a wishing and hoping sort of way) thing I've seen Palm say is that 1.4 will bring "performance and battery life improvements." One way to accomplish both would be to utilize the GPU for the UI. The GPU would be far, far more efficient, and that's the best way I can imagine improving both performance and battery life.
    Both in the PalmCast and front page post, Dieter already noted not to expect much nor any miracles on battery life and overall preformance with 1.4. I assume that he's seen or played with 1.4 (outside of CES) and knows 1st hand what we are to expect...hence his message.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by MilenkoD View Post
    For me, speed isn't the issue as much as fluidity of the UI elements. Even when I use my 1st gen iPod Touch, I'm enamored by the fluid performance of the UI due to the graphics processing in assistance. This would help a bunch if could be implemented ASAP to win more users to this platform.
    This is exactly what im taling about speed and fluidity. I too have used an ipod touch and the response is nothing short of amazing.(give credit to where its due) I hope that they have started working on this cause EVERYONE that critics this phone says the same thing its slow ******* have a hard time admitting that.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    The biggest question that I can't answer is: could Palm build this into the OS and make it transparent to the developer, that is, that current apps would automagically use these new methods, or would this require completely reprogramming all existent apps? If the former, then I wouldn't be shocked to see it in 1.4. If the latter then I'd be shocked to see it before 2.0.
    It's very possible for Palm to update WebOS to use CSS transformations or concrete GPU access and for it to affect every app no problem. The reason for this is the use of the javascript engine which powers everything. By upgrading it, or instructing it to access the gpu for specific things (drawing widgets for instance), most things are not accessible to developers for this reason.

    Basically the lowest levels (accessing physical aspects of the phone) are pulled away a couple layers from the level of apps. I can't think of any changes which should require any work on the developer's part (for instance they do not currently influence how things are drawn only what to draw).
  10. wicketr's Avatar
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    #30  
    Just did some checking on my phone:
    4 seconds to open Chat
    3 seconds to open Browser
    4 seconds to open Music
    4 seconds to open Calendar
    4 seconds to open Email
    2 seconds to open Camera
    19 seconds to fully open and display Google Maps
    15 seconds to open Pandora to stations list

    They do have some work to do. The built in app load times would be nice and attainable in 2 seconds. They can do this with some off loading to the GPU. Hopefully the sooner the better.

    Some of the other apps are extremely slow. Roughly 20 seconds for Google Maps? That's not good. Granted the reasoning is that the Palm apps run in the background, whereas these others do not.
  11. digink's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by netwrkr9 View Post
    Dude, 1 second to open an app is not that bad unless you are OCD.
    You must not use your phone for multi-tasking if you're getting these load times. Try having apps open and it is seriously slow.

    I can live with it, but I'd love for it to speed up. Today at work I was jamming pandora and in the app catalog, while an app was downloading music cut off a number of times and when I turned the phone back on to use the app the simple pin screen wouldnt even register my hits because the phone was thinking.

    Seriously slow, needs MAJOR MAJOR improvements in the speed department. That said, I am confident they will make them I just hope it doesn't take forever.
  12. #32  
    I have been and will probably remain a Palm fan for quite a few years. I take pride in showing off my Pre. But I do agree that if Palm wants to grow significantly in the market, then both fluidity and speed need to significantly improve. I love the webOS UI and its user experience but the speed & fluidity clearly can be improved (when compared to iPhone 3Gs). Having these two nailed, Palm's user base IMO will significantly grow (even without major marketing). I am certain Palm engineers are working on it. Hands down, today's iPhone cannot beat Palm's UI/experience, multi-tasking, notifications, open architecture, etc. Would love to see these two areas improved before 2.0.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by wicketr View Post
    Some of the other apps are extremely slow. Roughly 20 seconds for Google Maps? That's not good. Granted the reasoning is that the Palm apps run in the background, whereas these others do not.
    Google maps is hard since the GPS depends heavily on alot of factors. Not to mention Google maps is simply a link to the off-site webapp, so it could easily be something on Google's end.

    But you also have to realize WebOS isn't designed for opening and closing apps, it's made for you to open the most used apps and leave them running.
  14. UF15's Avatar
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Achill3s View Post
    Fluidity, I agree with that. Comparing it to the iphone, don't really agree with that. 1st gen vs 3-4th gen?
    Why not? It is 2010, both phones have access to the same technology, the same research. How is it not fair to expect Palm to come within range of its primary competition?

    Besides, the first iPhone released in 2007 scrolled smoothly, fluidly and quickly back then. It is 2010 now, is it too much to ask that the Pre do the same? I mean, we are talking 3-4 years later and it can't compete with 2007 technology? C'mon. It isn't us being unfair, it is Palm doing shoddy programming.

    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Palm has already indicated that they're looking at this, and I'm guessing this will come sooner rather than later. They've brought on some heavy hitters when it comes to Linux-based GUIs . . .
    Heavy hitters? They brought in ONE guy, and he wasn't exactly some god of GUI acceleration. And he was brought in specifically for the PDK, which was to get games working. They aren't doing any significant work on the GUI to speed it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    . . . in terms of accessing the GPU, and the way to do it with webOS will be via CSS transforms.
    I would love to hear how CSS transforms are supposed to make webpages scroll better. Here is how iPhone achieves its fluidity. The iPhone has a built-in GPU with OpenGL that can do a variety of graphic-intensive 3D stuff very smoothly. What they will cleverly do is render a webpage as a texture so that the GPU, which handles textures very well, will be able to move it up and down at a fantastic framerate. I don't know how CSS transforms will do that. They can accelerate things with the GPU, but until they start doing things cleverly with the GPU, they won't reach iPhone-like performance.

    Face it, guys, the only people who are doing things smoothly are Apple. Android is choppy and doesn't use the GPU for the GUI. Windows Mobile doesn't. Blackberry doesn't. Palm feels there is very little reason to do it themselves. They are more convinced that 3D games are going to sell their phone, not the speed and fluidity of the entire device.

    More likely than not, they will just rely on better hardware in the future to mask the inefficient coding. If they get a beefier CPU, it will do a better job rendering graphics than the current one, which will be adequate for them. The GPU will never be used for anything other than games.
  15. 1PTUser's Avatar
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    ... More likely than not, they will just rely on better hardware in the future to mask the inefficient coding. If they get a beefier CPU, it will do a better job rendering graphics than the current one, which will be adequate for them. The GPU will never be used for anything other than games.
    And you know this how exactly???
  16. #36  
    Soooo i'm the only one who leaves 4-5 apps open most of the time.

    no delays there!
  17. miata's Avatar
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    #37  
    I have to say that the Mercury article is pretty accurate. WebOS was very slow when it was released, but I think most critics were willing to overlook that due to how elegant the UI was. Seven months later and the UI responsiveness hasn't improved near enough. You really have to love the elegance and potential of WebOS to put up with the lag. I know I am one of those folks. I picked up a Pre back in July and switched to the Pixi Plus a couple of days ago, but even I will run out of patience if I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel in the next month or so.

    Palm really needs to fix the responsiveness of WebOS or more critics will ding these devices and WebOS will get a reputation as a slow motion OS.

    At this stage of development these devices should let you keep the calendar, contacts, web browser, mail and contacts open at all times with no lag, quick switching and fast launches. Not quite there yet.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain Mantis View Post
    Soooo i'm the only one who leaves 4-5 apps open most of the time.

    no delays there!
    LIAR!!!!!! there is a delay, the 1.5685 of a seconds it take to switch apps. im jk im being to literal like everyone else in this topic. the iphone is a smooth transition all the time, n boy do i dream the pre will be like that one of these days. but it will happen later in time not by the end of this month thats forsure. but if i wanted smooth as an iphone ill go get an iphone, the pre sadly cannot avoid a shadow that its not trying to fill rather a company it. sucks we get whiners comparing the pre to an iphone all the time. but then again this world full of comparison.
  19. Kedar's Avatar
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    #39  
    People who say the Pre isn't slow haven't used an Iphone/Droid.
    Things are slow on the Pre... sure we have multitasking, but with two-three apps running it doesn't mean much when one slows down the other (on Sprint Pre atleast)...

    And what if you're just trying to do one thing at a time?

    Anyway, speed is an issue that needs to be addressed. That would make my Pre experience 10X better.
  20. #40  
    Pre is slower than its competition running on the same/better hardware.

    Pre actively multitasks, as opposed to its competition running on the same/better hardware. Being able to go to a task manager and selecting a background process is NOT active multitasking.

    Pre sucks because it does more than its competition on the same/better hardware but is slower?

    I doubt we're going to see any great speed improvements in this generation of webOS phones, simply because hardware is a given and they can only improve the software. Once the next generation of hardware rolls around, Moore's Law kicks in. A noticeably quicker processor will make the entire experience noticeably faster.

    But that won't help Palm any, because their quick multitasking phone will never be perceived as cool by a crowd that doesn't think anything is cool unless it's an Apple or otherwise heavily advertised. And Palm simply do not have the money to advertise their products as heavily as their much richer competition. The only thing they can do - and they're doing it right now - is to put all the money they can possibly grease up into improving their product and hope to Allah that the quality of the product itself will become a selling point.

    webOS isn't perfect but it's so close it scares me. Pre is first-generation hardware suffering from all the childrens' diseases all first-generation hardware has always suffered from. And yes, the Pre hardware is slightly underpowered to drive webOS. But keep in mind they didn't really have anything better than a 600mhz A8 to go with in the spring of 2009. Let the same webOS or an improved version (webOS 2.0 anybody?) run on a processor twice as fast and see how the lag melts away like snow in an oven.

    Palm's sin with Pre was to get a wonderful operating system out to the masses before the available hardware was solid enough to run it ABSOLUTELY SMOOTHLY. Their sin was to get it out to people when the available hardware could only run their beast of a software WITH LAGS MEASURED IN SECONDS.

    Early adopters get screwed every time. Meh. That's the price to pay to be at the forefront of something. Me, I'll gladly wait a second for my app to load until my contract runs out in one and a half years, at which point Palm are probably out with third-generation hardware running webOS 3.0 on a quad-core Cortex A9 or something. I'm not bothered.

    That said, utilizing the GPU for the GUI is a great idea that would probably speed things up quite a bit. I'm looking forward to that happening, but I'm not holding my breath or jumping up and down until it happens.
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