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  1. gbp
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    Definitely, you're a troll. Or you're so stupid that you can't read the numerous posts in this thread saying you how webOS works.
    I guess he is not a troll or stupid, he is just new to the forum.He has a point about loosing the APP data, but he should know that the issue is known to folks on the forum. Most of the folks have their contacts,videos, photos and music backed up on their PC/Mac. The real issue is individual app settings. For now it is not important for majority.And no one is loosing their sleep.
  2. #82  
    The conduit model Hinky is describing is ancient. Palm pioneered it in a practical device in the Palm 1000, which I owned.

    When a palm os device hotsyncs, it goes through backing up the palm os data and then activates "hooks" provided to 3rd party developers, these hooks then go through their own backup routines, using the active connection to the device, the conduit.

    This back up was not universal, it depended on the 3rd party developers to write the hooks and back up routines. Many, many apps did not back up and were wiped out if the device went dead.

    Nor was the hot sync fail proof. Hot sync was notorious for conflicts and failures on 3rd party back ups.

    All other platforms have copied this system, Active Sync, iTunes, black berry.

    Now, rather than providing a conduit, the WebOS provides near constant access to the internet and allows developers to backup their applications remotely and automatically, if they so choose to write their apps that way.

    This solution is superior in some ways. For example, the issue of sync conflicts between apps is no longer an issue. It is more convenient, syncing is not ever a top of mind issue for a webOS user. As before, apps sync if the developer makes that possible, nothing is lost or gained in this regard.

    I suspect that as the model matures, you will see more developers backing up to online storage like Amazon or Google data services if they want, rather than host their own servers. Perhaps someone will be entrepreneurial and develop a subscription service that webOS owners can use and provide 3rd party hooks so smaller developers can take advantage of that storage.

    Being tied to a single machine for sync is an old, out dated model. It made since in the '90s when I owned one computer and having a PDA was kind of a geek thing to do. Now many people have access to 3-4 computers, having data tied to one is often a hassle. Or consider the opposite, as hard as it may seem to imagine in this day and age, many people buying smart phones now days have NO primary computer. Maybe they are teens or maybe they float between several computers during the day at school, work, home. For these people, a ball and chain model for syncing is impractical.

    I applaud Palm for being forward thinking. The issue of backup does need to be raised though so that people come to expect developers to provide a backup solution in their programming.

    The concept of remote data and processing power is not a new one. The first computers filled rooms and people used remote "dumb" terminals to perform their work. The cloud operates the same way but uses wireless technology.

    And hinky, you're a rude person. This is not the '90s. Unless you are that pushy, rude, inflammatory, argumentative, and antagonistic in person, you should not be so in posts. The time where the anonymity of the web excuses flames has past. This is the webOS community, a place for like minded people to discuss. Please be respectful.
    Palm 1000 > Palm Pro > Palm III > Palm IIIe X 3 > Palm IIIc > Palm TT > HTC Wizard > HTC Blue Angel > Palm TX > Zier 31 > Palm T3 > Palm Pre > FrankenPre 2 > TouchPad/Droid/Ubuntu > TP/ICS
  3. #83  
    I wasn't going to get into this rant, but have changed my mind. I really have only heard two basic areas of discussion.

    1. Can I have my Outlook data on both my Pre and Outlook without exchange server? Yes, I use Chapura's Pocket Mirror to maintain Notes, Tasks and Contacts. I use the Pre's email for, well, email.

    2. Can I functionally backup everything on my Pre to a local device that I can physically hold in my hands, like say a laptop, like I did when I had my Centro, my Treo700p, 650, 600, 300 and other Palm devices? No, there is no current complete system available like the Palm Desktop and third party apps like RescoBackup don't exist yet. Then again, Resco didn't exist for many years after Palm released its first Palm Device.

    Currently, if you want the capabilities you have listed, you might want to consider a Palm Treo700p or Centro. They work wondefully! I still have both of mine and will openly admit the Palm Pre doesn't come close to have the same capability, yet. It took years for Palm owners to get all that power in a small device and like you we actually do want many of the same thing you want.

    It's just that some of us have learned to live with these current shortcomings because we see a really awesome future with the WebOS. We hear you, we just can't reach you today, and maybe not tomorrow, but soon!
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    I guess he is not a troll or stupid, he is just new to the forum.He has a point about loosing the APP data, but he should know that the issue is known to folks on the forum. Most of the folks have their contacts,videos, photos and music backed up on their PC/Mac. The real issue is individual app settings. For now it is not important for majority.And no one is loosing their sleep.
    If you don't noted it, he is ignoring the posts that tell him what he is asking for. And again asking the same. Also, he tagged this thread as "going from porsche to kia, too much to read here, verbal diarrhea". His concerns about desktop sinchronization of 3rd party apps have been answered at least twice.

    Bah, forget it. I'm out of this thread.
  5. #85  
    Hinky is it really necessary to keep beating a dead horse like this? Your questions have been answered more times than I would ever expect considering how you pose them with such arrogance.
    The point is if you come on the forums, ask a question to see if webOs is right for you, you really should except the answers and move on. Palm is obviously no longer right for what you need?
    ok.
    What more is there to say?
    The answer is NOTHING. Instead you seem to want to convince everyone that palm is doomed and I don't see the point or usefulness of that. I'm not saying you don't have good points about the way the system doesn't work, but why get all arrogant with the people who try to help explain the way it DOES work? Wasn't that your original question? They have explained it thoroughly and yet you seem to think your the only one who understands your own questions simply because everyone who likes there phone doesn't suddenly wake up and go "Wow Hinky is right, why did I buy this?".
  6. #86  
    I wonder how long it will be before a group like Mozy or Carbonite gets into the smartphone backup business. That would be really sweet, nightly incremental backups of all files OTA. They would have to figure out a business model that makes sense.

    This could be done homebrew, with an Amazon data storage account. I started a thread in the webOS thread about it here: http://forums.precentral.net/showthr...23#post2191723
    Last edited by japomani; 01/31/2010 at 10:35 AM.
    Palm 1000 > Palm Pro > Palm III > Palm IIIe X 3 > Palm IIIc > Palm TT > HTC Wizard > HTC Blue Angel > Palm TX > Zier 31 > Palm T3 > Palm Pre > FrankenPre 2 > TouchPad/Droid/Ubuntu > TP/ICS
  7. #87  
    .. as a former NVBackup/Hotsync'ing fool, I must admit this is more of an issue than I first realized - sorry Hinky!

    Any othere's out there go through 5 Treo 755P's due to the thing (or bits of the keyboard) dying on a regular basis? 4 replacement usints in just over 2 years... thanks goodness for insurance!

    I had 2 (TWO) reliable ways of executing a "Stateful" restore of my enitire phone. Including bluetooth settings, application preferences, etc - NVBACKUP and good ol' Hotsync.

    Let's just say that I hope some of the precentral crew find a way to extend the "USB Drive" into the rest of the memory model of this little beastie before I start wearing bits of my pre out...

    russ
  8.    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    I guess he is not a troll or stupid, he is just new to the forum.He has a point about loosing the APP data, but he should know that the issue is known to folks on the forum. Most of the folks have their contacts,videos, photos and music backed up on their PC/Mac. The real issue is individual app settings. For now it is not important for majority.And no one is loosing their sleep.
    THANK YOU! Yes, I am very new to the forum and the Pre and came here to learn. What I have found out is that 50% of Pre users have no clue what is and isn't backed up on the phone and the misinformation given by people who parrot other misinformation is staggering. When in doubt, say "the cloud does it." IMHO the lack of backup is a HUGE hole and (a) there just aren't that many apps out that make it a big issue YET, and (b) many are likely not aware of it. My guess is that eventually someone will figure out a way to backup the entire device. The second part I'll address below.

    Quote Originally Posted by japomani View Post
    The conduit model Hinky is describing is ancient. Palm pioneered it in a practical device in the Palm 1000, which I owned.
    Until someone devises a way for sync to happen between your apps and your PC automatically, you'll go through what I call "iPhone hell." Warning: In order to be able to understand what I'm talking about you need to invest 3 minutes. The conduit model connects the PC to Phone and then synchronizes each app's data, one after another automatically. If there is no PC client (e.g. Outlook, Docs to Go, Password Keeper) installed or available, the connection backs up the data of the entire phone. If your phone is lost, all data is restored. My point here is that I don't care if the process is wireless, I just want this to happen with minimum pain.

    You haven't gone through this yet on the Pre but let me explain the problem with the iPhone. Apple realized that you probably want a backup of all your media and data on your phone so you can do a one touch restore if need be. 16GB of data is a LOT of data. If you sync your device with the phone (wired is fine since it also charges the phone and has high bandwidth), it will sync all media and data from every application. At no time are you ever without the ability to get a new phone and restore everything exactly as you had it last - emails, settings of every app, phone call logs, SMS messages, third party apps, data, all of it. It's invaluable.

    But now let's get to apps - and try to concentrate. There is a pro and con with "the modern way" for storing data. What japomani is talking about is the wireless way - and if you do this for all your apps, this will be EXPENSIVE both for you and for developers just to create an app. There is no "cloud" that protects you - Palm isn't doing anything here. Let's try a To Do application. You have one on your phone and an awesome one that is either (a) available on the web or (b) available on your PC or (c) both. The "new" way is to be on the web. You fire up your browser on your PC, it shows all your current to dos and if you edit/add/move anything, it will sync wirelessly with your phone. Pretty cool. I love it two. But there are a couple of shortcomings. (a) EVERY third party app will make you pay an annual fee for hosting and synching your data - if it's even just $10-20 per app, that will SIGNIFICANTLY add to the cost. (b) There is no "cloud" - the developer might have a great system or it might be a x486 located in a hut in Iraq. I'm just giving you an idea that if you're putting personal data in your To Dos, you've to both pay for it, make sure it's really private (and not hacked) and that hopefully, they'll have backups if their server crashes.

    Let's add to that the issue of (c) a local backup. Personally, even though I like the convenience of wireless sync, I ALWAYS want to have a local backup of my data and third party apps. Blackberry sync always worked and I found Palm Hotsync very reliable too. Regardless, I always had access to my data, didn't have to worry about who was storing private/sensitive data and I also didn't have to pay anyone for my backups.

    Last - Desktop clients - the need for these is to work offline. What I HATE about web based apps is the inability to have my data available when I'm not connected, e.g. on a daily commute, when traveling out of range, when I am on battery power and don't care to burn WiFi, etc. Lots of reasons.

    Now let's get to hotsync automatically aka "the iPhone Hell." I have a couple of apps like Docs to Go, Password keeper, Outlook etc. They have desktop clients where I can enter data, e.g. Outlook. With Blackberry/Palm hotsync, every apps data gets cycled to sync. Wireless sync and WiFi can add complexity (and the iPhone adds an extra layer of hell called "sandbox folders" that I won't get into.) The bottom line is this. How do you get these applications to sync automatically with the desktop? With the iPhone, they removed the ability to sync applications (other than Outlook which is built in - but not ToDos) using the wire. As a result, for EVERY app you need to (1) turn on wifi on the iPhone which is off if you want to save battery, (2) you need to fire up each application individually on the phone and the desktop, and (3) pair that app between the pc and phone each sync, and (4) tell each app to sync. Multiply that by 5-6 apps and you'll lose your mind. If there was an easy way to just have sync be permitted on the USB port, then even if there isn't a "one touch hotsync" you'd STILL at least allow the device to automatically sync with your desktop whenever the device is connected via USB - the same way your device syncs automatically with the cloud whenever you are connected via Verizon/Sprint's data service. So what happens now on the iPhone? Half my data is never synched in a timely fashion because firing up all the apps on each device every night is an absurd, long process.

    Quote Originally Posted by russellraff View Post
    .. Let's just say that I hope some of the precentral crew find a way to extend the "USB Drive" into the rest of the memory model of this little beastie before I start wearing bits of my pre out...
    This is what I was hoping for. People stop yelling about how the wire is "old" and "out of style." Someone who gives a hoot about his data will care and develop something that should have been included day one. But I have no idea how Palm designed WebOS to function regarding use of the USB port. Apple totally locked you out from sync on the wire, even if you want to. Palm's WebOS isn't completely that discriminatory - you can connect via USB and drag and drop files and even sync Outlook as Chapura has provided (and insanely stupid that it's an extra cost to sell to all the potential first time Pre buyers just to hookup to their home computer.)

    Anyways, there you go. I can't have said it any clearer. Some of you will understand and the rest of you will learn the very hard and very expensive way when the third party apps will hopefully start rolling out on the Pre. Been there and done that with the iPhone... and I have learned a great deal.
  9. gbp
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    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by hinky View Post
    TWhat I have found out is that 50% of Pre users have no clue what is and isn't backed up
    Wow where did you get that number? seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by hinky View Post
    The second part I'll address below.
    Folks know about the full backup. Please do not try to repeat what you have already said.

    Quote Originally Posted by hinky View Post
    If there is no PC client (e.g. Outlook, Docs to Go, Password Keeper) installed or available, the connection backs up the data of the entire phone. If your phone is lost, all data is restored.
    Again why are you telling the known fact. Folks on this forum know about this lack of full backup feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by hinky View Post
    You haven't gone through this yet on the Pre but let me explain the problem with the iPhone.
    Please, I am not interested in iPhone, I doubt others on this forum are curious to know it either.

    All your points are noted.Stop magnifying the issue, its not a deal breaker yet.
  10. #90  
    When I was a kid, we used to play a game called "phone baseball". It worked like this. You dial a random number and listened. For each time a person said "hello" before hanging up, you got a base. Four "hello"s was a home run! It was a pointless activity, but it satisfied our immature, juvenile desire to have fun.

    I think that is the game hinky is playing on us. He says the same things and takes joy in how many times we will keep responding. Fun game, huh?

    To summarize the past 5 pages-

    Hinky: Hey, webOS does an incomplete back up

    Everyone else: Yea, guess your right, though everything I care about is backed up in one way or another. I'm pretty ok with how things stand, but it's good to keep in mind as we go forward.

    Hinky: You are all idiots and don't understand the peril you are in!

    REPEAT 50 TIMES!

    I actually have wiped out my machine due to forgetting to remove patches before an upgrade. I had to wipe the device clean with webOS Doctor to put it right. You know what? It was no big deal. Everything came back just fine. Except the patches, putting those back was a pain, but now Preware takes care of that too.

    As far as the expense of the cloud goes, we do not live in the '90s anymore. I don't pay for any of my wireless syncing platforms. They are all subsidized with marketing. Linked in, facebook, google, yahoo, AOL, company exchange servers, palm, remember the milk, Pandora, etc. These are not huts in iraq. My stuff is safer there than on my home PC, that is for sure. I have lost more Hard Drives than data in the cloud.

    But there I go again, instead of all that, I should have just said "hello" and waved hinky on to the next base.
    Last edited by japomani; 01/31/2010 at 10:35 PM.
    Palm 1000 > Palm Pro > Palm III > Palm IIIe X 3 > Palm IIIc > Palm TT > HTC Wizard > HTC Blue Angel > Palm TX > Zier 31 > Palm T3 > Palm Pre > FrankenPre 2 > TouchPad/Droid/Ubuntu > TP/ICS
  11. wkj
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    #91  
    double post
    Last edited by wkj; 01/31/2010 at 10:50 PM.
  12. wkj
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    #92  
    So. We have a five page thread where the question was answered on the first page and the other four pages are redundant postings. Isn't this reason to close the thread? I've seen trheads here and in other forums get closed after the question was asked and answered but repeated for several pages. Nothing new to add? Let's all move on.

    I'm sure someone will pipe in and say "If you don't like it, don't read it". I lost educational interest after the first page.....now it simply entertainment.
  13.    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Wow where did you get that number? seriously
    Folks know about the full backup. Please do not try to repeat what you have already said.
    Again why are you telling the known fact. Folks on this forum know about this lack of full backup feature.
    Speak for yourself. You don't realize how many people have no clue about how these things work. If it was so obvious people would have said so right from the beginning.

    Please, I am not interested in iPhone, I doubt others on this forum are curious to know it either.
    All your points are noted.Stop magnifying the issue, its not a deal breaker yet.
    What a condescending person. Not everyone is as brilliant as you are. It helps to explain how things work so that the many here who clearly don't have an understand can appreciate how this confusing cloud/wireless issue works and is solved by different companies.

    Considering that I would be using third party apps on the Pre imminently and I like to know I can have a full backup on my hard drive then, yes, it is a deal breaker. Perhaps you don't do much with your Pre except play games and make friends on Facebook. Don't tell others what is important to them, especially backup.
  14.    #94  
    If things were so obvious then dozens of members at PreCentral wouldn't have been all over the map during the course of this thread. japomani, you're still an obnoxious kid, you've just aged. It must feel good to you to act like a "come late to the party know-it-all" online.

    "As far as the expense of the cloud goes, we do not live in the '90s anymore. I don't pay for any of my wireless syncing platforms. They are all subsidized with marketing. Linked in, facebook, google, yahoo, AOL, company exchange servers, palm, remember the milk, Pandora, etc. These are not huts in iraq."

    japomani = You're just a sheep who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Some of us have thrived and experienced many different decades, including the 80s, 90s and several technology booms and busts. Money doesn't grow on trees. Not everything is subsidized which is why many people and professionals are willing to pay a premium for great applications. One of the most popular on the BlackBerry is a suite by RexWireless. It's expensive but worth it. Even the AlMighty Google hasn't put anything out. If you've learned anything over the past years it SHOULD have been that nothing is "free" and perhaps you're just too foolish to learn how to realize where you end up paying and understanding the trade-off... and no kidding, the server isn't in a hut in Iraq. But considering how much lost data has occurred in top tier companies as our other friends found using Google, only a complete moron wouldn't appreciate a full backup on his/her hard drive instead of a fool like you who insists we're just relics.


    What I've learned is how outrageously obnoxious many of you are, many of you with a HUGE chip on your shoulder. I was trying to piece together the above which is "obvious" to those that spent a lot of time AFTER they bought their Pre. You've done a great job of convincing me and perhaps many others of two things. (1) This place might contain an even higher percentage of obnoxious and insecure about their equipment users than even an iPhone forum (which is hard to do), and (2) perhaps buying a Pre isn't a good idea at all, especially since a good faith attempt to have a conversation that may raise legitimate questions that might not flatter the Pre is met with a torrent of derision and immaturity. Maybe your insecurity about the Pre's not so strong characteristics tells me all I really need to know.

    See ya guys. You convinced me to wait and see what else comes out.
  15. #95  
    Did you ever think that there are many people that are really happy with their Pre's?
  16.    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by netwrkr9 View Post
    Did you ever think that there are many people that are really happy with their Pre's?
    Who said I didn't? There are a lot of people very happy with other phones too but I've never seen the rain of obnoxious comments as I've seen here. Only a select few actually took a minute to realize that it's not easy to figure out what Palm's strategy is with regard to handling backup and sync. And you have a ton of misinformed people making statements as fact, apparently because the Pre hasn't seen third party apps in practice yet. In about 2-3 months the confusion will begin to subside.
  17. #97  
    I make calls, check email, text, listen to music (my own and internet), use GPS navigation and many other things with my Pre. I have fine tuned my Pre with Preware to better suit my individual needs and with the smartreflex 500 patch and a Mugen 1400 battery I can go all day and still have plenty of battery left. I back my phone up on my computer with webOSQI beside having everything backed up by Palm so there are no issues/worries there. I mean my Pre does everything that I need and expect from a smartphone and no one coming in this forum spewing out thousand word posts is going to change me and many other satisfied Pre owners minds. With Palm's mutitasking, easy to use UI and many other features I can see why some people from other phone platforms have switched over to the Palm Pre. It's just that simple.
  18. Xyg
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    #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by hinky View Post
    If things were so obvious then dozens of members at PreCentral wouldn't have been all over the map during the course of this thread. japomani, you're still an obnoxious kid, you've just aged. It must feel good to you to act like a "come late to the party know-it-all" online.

    "As far as the expense of the cloud goes, we do not live in the '90s anymore. I don't pay for any of my wireless syncing platforms. They are all subsidized with marketing. Linked in, facebook, google, yahoo, AOL, company exchange servers, palm, remember the milk, Pandora, etc. These are not huts in iraq."

    japomani = You're just a sheep who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Some of us have thrived and experienced many different decades, including the 80s, 90s and several technology booms and busts. Money doesn't grow on trees. Not everything is subsidized which is why many people and professionals are willing to pay a premium for great applications. One of the most popular on the BlackBerry is a suite by RexWireless. It's expensive but worth it. Even the AlMighty Google hasn't put anything out. If you've learned anything over the past years it SHOULD have been that nothing is "free" and perhaps you're just too foolish to learn how to realize where you end up paying and understanding the trade-off... and no kidding, the server isn't in a hut in Iraq. But considering how much lost data has occurred in top tier companies as our other friends found using Google, only a complete moron wouldn't appreciate a full backup on his/her hard drive instead of a fool like you who insists we're just relics.


    What I've learned is how outrageously obnoxious many of you are, many of you with a HUGE chip on your shoulder. I was trying to piece together the above which is "obvious" to those that spent a lot of time AFTER they bought their Pre. You've done a great job of convincing me and perhaps many others of two things. (1) This place might contain an even higher percentage of obnoxious and insecure about their equipment users than even an iPhone forum (which is hard to do), and (2) perhaps buying a Pre isn't a good idea at all, especially since a good faith attempt to have a conversation that may raise legitimate questions that might not flatter the Pre is met with a torrent of derision and immaturity. Maybe your insecurity about the Pre's not so strong characteristics tells me all I really need to know.

    See ya guys. You convinced me to wait and see what else comes out.
    My word. If you had spent half the time you've spent writing in this thread doing your own research, you'd have all the answers you seek.
  19.    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by netwrkr9 View Post
    I make calls, check email, text, listen to music (my own and internet), use GPS navigation and many other things with my Pre. I have fine tuned my Pre with Preware to better suit my individual needs and with the smartreflex 500 patch and a Mugen 1400 battery I can go all day and still have plenty of battery left. I back my phone up on my computer with webOSQI beside having everything backed up by Palm so there are no issues/worries there. I mean my Pre does everything that I need and expect from a smartphone and no one coming in this forum spewing out thousand word posts is going to change me and many other satisfied Pre owners minds. With Palm's mutitasking, easy to use UI and many other features I can see why some people from other phone platforms have switched over to the Palm Pre. It's just that simple.
    It's hilarious to watch how many people responding to me as if I had no care for time and just came here to convince all of you the Pre sucks and rain on your parade. Y'all have to show me that you're thrilled with your Pre... no, really, people can be happy with it! I've been using Palm devices since they were monochrome and loved my Treos. I've found out that for my purposes, not unlike many like minded professionals, the Pre might not be there yet and ready to replace my Blackberry and iPhone. The mere mention of the i-word sends people here into a tizzy.
  20.    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    My word. If you had spent half the time you've spent writing in this thread doing your own research, you'd have all the answers you seek.
    I spent most of the time sifting through:

    (a) All the misinformation given by precentral members
    (b) all the short responses like yours that did nothing to answer questions and only for the satisfaction of looking like the coolest smart aleck in front of peers
    (c) all the responses from Pre owners convinced they had to SHOW me that they love their Pres, as is, and that my needs were just outdated, too picky and completely illogical

    Look at all of you. One by one coming here to pile on! I'm done. You've convinced me this place isn't friendly and most of you are scared witless hearing any negative characteristics of the Palm WebOS and Pre raised by users, even if innocently in the practice of trying to understand something new. Heard it! You should have known it! It's common knowledge! Whatever. Unsubscribing now...
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