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  1.    #1  
    here is the review of N900 from Engadget
    Nokia N900 review -- Engadget

    Now, finally, let's talk about this handset's real treat, its crown jewel: the glorious browser. The Internet Tablet line has used a fairly capable Mozilla-based browser for ages, but between the latest tweaked code and the N900's thoroughly freshened internals, it's gone to an entirely new level. Almost without fail, sites were rendered faithfully (just as you'd expect them to look in Firefox on your desktop) with fully-functional, usable Flash embeds -- and it's fast. Not only is the initial rendering fast, but scrolling around complex pages (Engadget's always a good example) was effortless; you see the typical grid pattern when you first scroll into a new area, of course, but it fills in with the correct content rapidly. To say we were blown away by the N900's raw browsing power would be an understatement -- in fact, we could realistically see carrying it in addition to another phone for browsing alone, because even in areas where it gives a little ground to the iPhone or Pre in usability, it smacks everyone down in raw power and compatibility.
    Palm has PDK, and linux core, firefox mobile for Maemo is a linux app, it shouldnt take much effort for this to happen. Mozilla and Palm, do some cooperation please.
  2. #2  
    Ummmm you do realize that Palm hired a couple people from Mozilla a while back don't you? I don't see why they really need to make a firefox app. The Pre's browser is already quie strong on its own. And of course the Mozilla crew would probably have to adapt their engine to work with WebOS' plugin system to support Flash implementation.
  3. #3  
    I doubt palm is looking to overhaul their browser....it works just as well (sometimes better) than the iPhone browser.
  4.    #4  
    the buzz surrounding the first mobile firefox on a major phone in US would surely increase the mindshare for Palm. Not to mention the speed, the compatibility, the addons, the password manager, the competition firefox mobile would bring. Firefox's memory management (looking at desktop browsers) are best among all browsers.

    I dont see this costs palm any significant amount of energy or money, all it needs to do is make an effort and give Mozilla the PDK now. why not?
  5. #5  
    As much as Mozilla makes good web browsers, the WebOS browser is definitely matured. Like Brain Mantis said before me, I wouldn't understand why Palm would focus on another browser when their current one is about to get Flash.


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  6. rayln's Avatar
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    #6  
    I'm glad you capitalized "NOW," palm might otherwise ignore your suggestion.
    perhaps an exclamation mark or two would spruce up the urgency with which palm needs to, in fact, contact mozilla?

    regardless, the webOS browser is webkit based and not even the latest build mind you. I'm sure it will more than continue to improve.

    let mozilla and other developers worry about porting/creating browsers for the webOS line.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    the buzz surrounding the first mobile firefox on a major phone in US would surely increase the mindshare for Palm. Not to mention the speed, the compatibility, the addons, the password manager, the competition firefox mobile would bring. Firefox's memory management (looking at desktop browsers) are best among all browsers.

    I dont see this costs palm any significant amount of energy or money, all it needs to do is make an effort and give Mozilla the PDK now. why not?
    Again, Palm has had 2 Mozilla staff members since September as Developer Relations. I'm sure if their friends at Mozilla really wanted the PDK they'd give it to them.

    Also if you haven't been paying attention to the latest developments in "browser wars" Google Chrome has moved up to the top of the game, which is a Webkit based browser, like the Pre's. There's really no sense in making these empty demands, especially on a unsupported forum. You know Palm has their own forum and a feature request page you can go to and make your requests there.
  8.    #8  
    its very obvious according to all N900 reviews that firefox mobile is a superior products in many fronts. and it will just be another "app", there is no "overhauling" of Pre's own browser involved. Palm dont need to support firefox mobile, just like they dont need to support NFS.

    There is a reason why Pre's webkit is not latest build, because its not possible to just grab a latest build and think it will substitute current old core and works without problems.

    Pre's browser is lacking in many areas, password remembering and management, no addons, single search engine, memory hogging from time to time, some compatibility issues. slow backward.

    again this is not a call for palm to change it browser, this is a call for palm to give early access of their PDK to mozilla and make a great app happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyusaku View Post
    Also if you haven't been paying attention to the latest developments in "browser wars" Google Chrome has moved up to the top of the game, which is a Webkit based browser, like the Pre's.
    obviously Im paying good attention on these stuff. Google has not moved to the top in any regard, it still only has 4% market share, and its only bragging is faster V8 jsjsjs $engine$ $which$ $is$ $not$ $used$ $in$ $Pre$'$s$ $browser$.

    Webkit is still contently uses more memories and hogging the system. and functionally lacking.

    just read engadget's review and its obvious whatever argument are there for webkit as an engine, the mobile browser on the Pre and iPhone is less than the firefox on N900.
    Last edited by clevin; 01/19/2010 at 01:46 PM.
  9. rayln's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    the buzz surrounding the first mobile firefox on a major phone in US would surely increase the mindshare for Palm. Not to mention the speed, the compatibility, the addons, the password manager, the competition firefox mobile would bring. Firefox's memory management (looking at desktop browsers) are best among all browsers.

    I dont see this costs palm any significant amount of energy or money, all it needs to do is make an effort and give Mozilla the PDK now. why not?
    that's a joke.
    listen, I'm a dedicated firefox user.
    I love mozilla's browser, it's my browser of choice.

    but their memory management is horrible compared to others.
    and as for speed? chrome blows it out of the water in both speed and simplicity.

    gecko and tracemonkey both need to be further optimized before widespread use on mobile devices.

    fennec is still only in beta for maemo and alpha for winmo and symbian I believe.

    webOS is partly based on webkit if I'm not mistaken, I'm sure they'll continue to incorporate the latest developments and leverage their own.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    obviously Im paying good attention on these stuff. Google has not moved to the top in any regard, it still only has 4% market share, and its only bragging is faster V8 jsjsjs $engine$ $which$ $is$ $not$ $used$ $in$ $Pre$'$s$ $browser$.
    Actually WebOS does have the V8 JavaScript engine....
  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by rayln View Post
    that's a joke.
    listen, I'm a dedicated firefox user.
    I love mozilla's browser, it's my browser of choice.

    but their memory management is horrible compared to others.
    and as for speed? chrome blows it out of the water in both speed and simplicity.

    gecko and tracemonkey both need to be further optimized before widespread use on mobile devices.

    fennec is still only in beta for maemo and alpha for winmo and symbian I believe.

    webOS is partly based on webkit if I'm not mistaken, I'm sure they'll continue to incorporate the latest developments and leverage their own.
    its dumb for you to make such statement just because you read some benchmark of chrome on a desktop computer.

    why dont you go read what engadget review has to say and realize mobile browser and desktop browser are two different issues?

    Fast, every reviewer of N900 said Mozilal based browser is "faster". exactly whats so difficult to read a word?

    memory management? is that so hard for you to google "memory comparison of browsers"?


    if you dont even want to open your eyes and read some data, what do you have to convince people?
    Last edited by clevin; 01/19/2010 at 02:01 PM.
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyusaku View Post
    Actually WebOS does have the V8 JavaScript engine....
    that would be a news to me, care to share your source?
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    that would be a news to me, care to share your source?
    open Terminal, type ipkg list

    go to luna-webkit, v8 255.86
  14.    #14  
    sry I dont have a terminal here.

    u sure that "v8" means "V8 javascript engine"?

    either way, Im not calling to palm to ditch their WebOS jsjsjs $fundation$ $and$ $put$ $in$ $tracemonkey$ $instead$, $as$ $I$ $mentioned$ $above$, $im$ $just$ $calling$ $for$ $an$ $app$.

    exactly what do you guys have to against an app? for replicate of a function? like apple's policy?
  15. rayln's Avatar
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    its dumb for you to make such statement just because you read some benchmark of chrome on a desktop computer.
    but then you go ahead to tell me to read the sites YOU want me to and the benchmarks YOU want me to read, right?

    listen buddy, I'm not pulling these statements out of my ***.
    I can easily check the system to see which applications and services are currently running and track the progress over time to see firefox's memory bloat.

    it's a well known issue with mozilla firefox.

    why dont you go read what engadget review has to say and realize mobile browser and desktop browser are two different issues?

    Fast, every reviewer of N900 said Mozilal based browser is "faster". exactly whats so difficult to read a word?

    memory management? is that so hard for you to google "memory comparison of browsers"?

    if you dont even want to open your eyes and read some data, what do you have to convince people?
    hey, thanks for the hypocrisy once again.
    d'you not seem to understand that fennec is based on the same layout and jsjsjs $engines$ $as$ $firefox$?
    or that it's not widely available as a stable release?
    I'm assuming the issues inherent in the desktop browser would very much exist in some capacity in its mobile version.

    it has to be optimized for the platform it's running on.
    you can't just port some half-cooked beta and expect it to run perfectly or as fast or as efficient on the pre simply because webOS and maemo both utilize linux.

    there's yet to even be an android release even though it also utilizes linux.
    know why? there's tons of separate and different layers each platform incorporates to get through.

    saying that, I've yet to test an n900 for myself (and it looks like you haven't either) but I do own a pre.
    and I can tell you that while the browser still needs some improvements in certain areas, it's damn good at what it does and I can't fault it for too much.

    furthermore, let mozilla worry about making gecko and tracemonkey play nice with webOS on their own time.
    I'm sure if they were currently interested in developing for webOS, they have already contacted palm about doing so.

    before I see another browser pop up for the pre, I would rather see recent webkit (and by extension webcore and and javascriptcore) start popping up in future webOS updates.

    webOS itself is fairly significantly based on webkit, it's very much a shell designed to run webkit in an optimized environment.

    but palm is also free to leverage their own tinkering and I'm sure their roadmap for webOS includes such improvements.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    sry I dont have a terminal here.

    u sure that "v8" means "V8 javascript engine"?
    Viewing the Open Source Information File - opensource.palm.com - Palm

    Got a PDF viewer? (Actually this PDF should be on your Pre, but easier to read on a desktop.(Page 38 is interesting)
    http://palm.cdnetworks.net/opensourc...nformation.pdf
  17. rayln's Avatar
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    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    sry I dont have a terminal here.

    u sure that "v8" means "V8 javascript engine"?

    either way, Im not calling to palm to ditch their WebOS jsjsjs $fundation$ $and$ $put$ $in$ $tracemonkey$ $instead$, $as$ $I$ $mentioned$ $above$, $im$ $just$ $calling$ $for$ $an$ $app$.

    exactly what do you guys have to against an app? for replicate of a function? like apple's policy?
    I don't have anything against another browser app but I do believe palm simply shouldn't spend man-hours better spent elsewhere.

    and also, they don't have a non-compete policy like apple.

    wanna see proof of concept of this if you don't want to pore over various legal documents?

    go to device info and check the default apps option under preferences.

    they will eventually allow other apps to herald, among other various options, web browsing.

    patience grasshopper.
  18. #18  
    I work on Fennec at Mozilla (and used to work at Palm on Foleo and webOS). Mozilla is paying attention to the webOS platform, but we don't currently have plans to support it; our hands are full supporting Maemo on the n900, developing for Windows Mobile, and doing investigation work on Android. From what I've seen, porting to the PDK is possible, but it would take a bit of time as we don't have an optimized backend that talks directly to OpenGL or SDL -- our Linux port currently makes a lot of assumptions that it's running on top of the GTK. There's a QT backend that might be a better starting point, but it needs updating. Right now, it looks like a lot of the refactoring to make the browser work on Android could also be beneficial on webOS, but it's not a slam dunk by any means.

    I should add that this is just my personal opinion, and not an official statement on behalf of Mozilla.
  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by rayln View Post
    but then you go ahead to tell me to read the sites YOU want me to and the benchmarks YOU want me to read, right?
    maybe because the website I was asking you read actually compares mobile browsers on two smartphones? rather than a remote desktop browser benchmark that has nothing to do with what you have?

    is that not reasonable?
    listen buddy, I'm not pulling these statements out of my ***.
    I can easily check the system to see which applications and services are currently running and track the progress over time to see firefox's memory bloat.

    it's a well known issue with mozilla firefox.
    please DO! in macrumors.com forum, in gallery board, there is a discussion asking people post pictures of their browser memory usage, and guess what!, you are free to read and check collective result right there!
    hey, thanks for the hypocrisy once again.
    d'you not seem to understand that fennec is based on the same layout and jsjsjs $engines$ $as$ $firefox$?
    or that it's not widely available as a stable release?
    I'm assuming the issues inherent in the desktop browser would very much exist in some capacity in its mobile version.
    yeah what a smart assumption!

    based on safari or google chrome, wouldn't you assum a mobile browser can at least do some fast backward/forward and remembering password and not losing cookies all the time?

    you assume too much .
    it has to be optimized for the platform it's running on.
    you can't just port some half-cooked beta and expect it to run perfectly or as fast or as efficient on the pre simply because webOS and maemo both utilize linux.
    nobody said its as easy as that, did I? just asking palm to release PDK to mozilla ahead of march. whats wrong with that?
    there's yet to even be an android release even though it also utilizes linux.
    know why? there's tons of separate and different layers each platform incorporates to get through.

    saying that, I've yet to test an n900 for myself (and it looks like you haven't either) but I do own a pre.
    and I can tell you that while the browser still needs some improvements in certain areas, it's damn good at what it does and I can't fault it for too much.
    guess what, engadget, and other reviewers actually have them all!, and they made better point than you do!
    furthermore, let mozilla worry about making gecko and tracemonkey play nice with webOS on their own time.
    I'm sure if they were currently interested in developing for webOS, they have already contacted palm about doing so.

    before I see another browser pop up for the pre, I would rather see recent webkit (and by extension webcore and and javascriptcore) start popping up in future webOS updates.
    take a look at latest safari and see how old the core is. its not that easy to just grab a webkit core and stuff in the shell.

    furthermore, who said palm should doing that? the work is on mozilla side, just need access to PDK.
    webOS itself is fairly significantly based on webkit, it's very much a shell designed to run webkit in an optimized environment.

    but palm is also free to leverage their own tinkering and I'm sure their roadmap for webOS includes such improvements.
    PDK, PDK, PDK. was I talking about changing foundation of webOS? or asking palm to switch jsjsjs $core$? $no$, $I$ $didn$'$t$.
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcombee View Post
    I work on Fennec at Mozilla (and used to work at Palm on Foleo and webOS). Mozilla is paying attention to the webOS platform, but we don't currently have plans to support it; our hands are full supporting Maemo on the n900, developing for Windows Mobile, and doing investigation work on Android. From what I've seen, porting to the PDK is possible, but it would take a bit of time as we don't have an optimized backend that talks directly to OpenGL or SDL -- our Linux port currently makes a lot of assumptions that it's running on top of the GTK. There's a QT backend that might be a better starting point, but it needs updating. Right now, it looks like a lot of the refactoring to make the browser work on Android could also be beneficial on webOS, but it's not a slam dunk by any means.

    I should add that this is just my personal opinion, and not an official statement on behalf of Mozilla.
    I guess that concludes it, I have patience, and by looking at the status of WM, i would respectively suggest mozilla thinking about dropping it, WM itself is slow, and Opera Mobile/Skyfire are doing pretty good with full functions.

    and its unwise to leave significant market to webkit unchallenged. Since debut of iPhone's safari mobile to now, its been 3 years, and mobile webkit based browser has had little progress, at this time, my pre still can't remember passwords, each time I hit back/forward, it still try to re-grab all the data again and again, it still produces "no enough memory" errors after some intense browsing session even after the browser is closed. the keyword in urlbar still always goto a search result rather than website directly. I want some competitions in this market.

    There is no need to reply, I'm just making some points and Im not expecting to find a quick solution from mozilla or palm.
    Last edited by clevin; 01/19/2010 at 02:42 PM.
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