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  1.    #1  
    First off this is not a slight against the AWESOME WebOS homebrew community. I would have bounced to an Android phone a long time ago if it wasn't for the amazing homebrew developers.

    I'm just hoping the 1.3.5 upgrade debacle hasn't soured Palm on the benefits of an open community.

    For those who haven't noticed, 1.3.5 fixed the infamous app limit by moving all apps to a new directory inside /media. Unfortunately, homebrew apps were not migrated to their new home because they didn't sit in the same folder as "official" apps. As I understand it, this is the ultimate cause of the "Reboot to install" error that many people have gotten when trying to download an app from the official catalog.

    Normally this wouldn't be a huge deal; in fact the WebOS Internals guys released an Emergency Migration Tool that fixed the problem. But it relies on the users to install it, and many simply are not technically capable enough to do so without an exhaustive tutorial with pretty pictures.

    So now the App Catalog is being flooded with zero and one star reviews for GREAT apps simply because they can't install the app. Developers are getting rightly annoyed at the lost revenue (check the Palm dev forums, paid app downloads are significantly DOWN since 1.3.5 hit), which is leading to a lot of stress on Chuq and the Palm support team.

    I'm sure they understand the nuances of the situation, but realistically speaking this problem wouldn't have occurred if Palm took a more mainline stance on homebrew. I really hope this whole debacle isn't causing Palm to rethink their friendliness towards homebrew hackers.
  2. angiest's Avatar
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    #2  
    If people can install homebrew apps, why is it so hard to install the migration tool? BTW, it was not all homebrew apps that caused problems. I had the issue (and was close to doctoring before the migration app came out) but my wife's phone, which only had a couple of homebrew apps on it, did not have the problem.

    If you are going to use homebrew, you pretty much *have* to follow this forum.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by Leathal View Post
    First off this is not a slight against the AWESOME WebOS homebrew community. I would have bounced to an Android phone a long time ago if it wasn't for the amazing homebrew developers.

    I'm just hoping the 1.3.5 upgrade debacle hasn't soured Palm on the benefits of an open community.

    For those who haven't noticed, 1.3.5 fixed the infamous app limit by moving all apps to a new directory inside /media. Unfortunately, homebrew apps were not migrated to their new home because they didn't sit in the same folder as "official" apps. As I understand it, this is the ultimate cause of the "Reboot to install" error that many people have gotten when trying to download an app from the official catalog.

    Normally this wouldn't be a huge deal; in fact the WebOS Internals guys released an Emergency Migration Tool that fixed the problem. But it relies on the users to install it, and many simply are not technically capable enough to do so without an exhaustive tutorial with pretty pictures.

    So now the App Catalog is being flooded with zero and one star reviews for GREAT apps simply because they can't install the app. Developers are getting rightly annoyed at the lost revenue (check the Palm dev forums, paid app downloads are significantly DOWN since 1.3.5 hit), which is leading to a lot of stress on Chuq and the Palm support team.

    I'm sure they understand the nuances of the situation, but realistically speaking this problem wouldn't have occurred if Palm took a more mainline stance on homebrew. I really hope this whole debacle isn't causing Palm to rethink their friendliness towards homebrew hackers.
    Lotta ways to look at this. One is that anyone installing homebrew ought to know how to uninstall and reinstall those apps - which I suspect is a tedious, but effective alternative to emergency migration tools.

    Another consideration is that Palm could've/should've designed with the potential app limit issues in-mind.

    Ultimately, this sounds like the kind of thing that comes along with an open system.
    * Stuck patches? Partial erase worked for me.
    * Stuck virtual keyboard? Partial erase AND folder deletion worked for me.
  4. #4  
    what is mainline stance you are talking about?

    I am not surprised with problems here and there as its a common theme in OSS world. and Im perfectly fine with that, people who are geeky enough to dive in are most likely know what they signing up for.

    Do I prefer a 100% controlled system like apple's app store that suffocate living life out of me? Hell no.
  5. #5  
    Mainline as in Palm taking steps in that last update to migrate homebrew apps having EMH included as part of 1.3.5?
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Mainline as in Palm taking steps in that last update to migrate homebrew apps having EMH included as part of 1.3.5?
    I think that's taking it a little far. I love the community, I do all kinds of things, but that's just it. It's US, not Palm. To expect them to one, forsee this happening and two, write code for things that aren't caused by them, aren't their problem, and only affect certain users is a bit silly.

    I think the Internalz team handled it perfectly. They, however accidental, caused the mistake, not Palm.
  7. angiest's Avatar
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    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by laelipoo View Post
    I think that's taking it a little far. I love the community, I do all kinds of things, but that's just it. It's US, not Palm. To expect them to one, forsee this happening and two, write code for things that aren't caused by them, aren't their problem, and only affect certain users is a bit silly.

    I think the Internalz team handled it perfectly. They, however accidental, caused the mistake, not Palm.
    How was it caused by internalz?
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by angiest View Post
    How was it caused by internalz?
    The homebrew apps were missing an app-info file that didn't allow the 1.3.5 update to move them, causing an incomplete install and the app catalogue error. Thus, no homebrew, no issue.

    But they had it under control in an hour. The guys and gals there are awesome.
  9. #9  
    Welcome to open source. Things can get bumpy. Please fasten your seat belts.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  10. #10  
    Homebrew apps were not really to blame for the issue but everything else; Patches, Services, etc. Please read up on the subject.

    http://forums.precentral.net/2112009-post4337.html

    The Homebrew community is not to blame. There are plenty of warnings with most of the software, especially the software that caused the migration issues in the first place(try installing a patch, service, theme and see that script warning.) What had happened wasn't expected and they understand that and have done everything they can to fix the issue. Those people who throw their hands in the air and say it's not their fault and blame Palm and give bad reviews are oblivious to their own actions.

    Palm has given the community the tools to fix this issue, WebOS Doctor, which can fix just about any and all issues.
  11.    #11  
    I guess mainstream would have been a better word to use haha. I meant an approach vaguely similar to what Apple does where everything is locked down, although not quite as draconian. Homebrew's ease of use is both its greatest strength and greatest weakness, in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Mainline as in Palm taking steps in that last update to migrate homebrew apps having EMH included as part of 1.3.5?
    That would have been nice, but Palm probably has to stay somewhat hands-off from the homebrew stuff in order to avoid opening a whole 'nother can o' worms in regards to technical support as well as potential legal liabilities. There's a very good reason most homebrew guides explicitly say to doctor your phone before contacting Palm or the carrier for support.

    On the other hand, Palm picked a very bad time to stop the doctor from doing an automatic full erase as even doctoring your phone to 1.3.5 wouldn't fix the issue unless it was preceded by a manual full erase. I know a lot of homebrew devs were testing 1.3.5 for a good bit before it went public, I'm surprised the problem wasn't discovered in testing given how widespread it seems to be.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by laelipoo View Post
    I think that's taking it a little far. I love the community, I do all kinds of things, but that's just it. It's US, not Palm. To expect them to one, forsee this happening and two, write code for things that aren't caused by them, aren't their problem, and only affect certain users is a bit silly.

    I think the Internalz team handled it perfectly. They, however accidental, caused the mistake, not Palm.
    But does it only affect certain users? The OP mentioned it prompted negative reviews in the app catalog, devs are annoyed, Chuq is stressed out, etc. That affects Palm.

    And edit: Leathal makes a good point about how involved Palm can be before they have to take some form of ownership of it via support and all that.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Leathal View Post
    I meant an approach vaguely similar to what Apple does where everything is locked down, although not quite as draconian.
    ewwwww. can't agree with that.
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyusaku View Post
    The Homebrew community is not to blame. There are plenty of warnings with most of the software, especially the software that caused the migration issues in the first place(try installing a patch, service, theme and see that script warning.) What had happened wasn't expected and they understand that and have done everything they can to fix the issue. Those people who throw their hands in the air and say it's not their fault and blame Palm and give bad reviews are oblivious to their own actions.

    Palm has given the community the tools to fix this issue, WebOS Doctor, which can fix just about any and all issues.
    I think you're reading too much into my original post. I'm not saying "Blargh blargh blargh homebrew is bad." Far from it. And I believe you're incorrect about WebOS Doctor fixing all issues in this particular case. The 1.2.1 Doctor WOULD have fixed everything but, starting in 1.3, it no longer does a full erase and thus even doctoring the phone didn't fix the App Catalog error.

    If blame is to be assigned, I think clueless users are far more to "blame" (not that blaming the users is a viable option for most devs haha). Stuff like this happens all the time in open source ecosystems, but if someone has trouble installing WINE they generally understand that it's probably something they did wrong and they immediately turn to Google or forums rather than calling up Mark Shuttleworth in the middle of a game of racquetball.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    Welcome to open source. Things can get bumpy. Please fasten your seat belts.
    Right. However WebOS homebrew is pulling in all kinds of users who have never even used the "ls" command, let alone understand that most OSS stuff is community supported. Their first instinct is to blame Palm or the app developer rather than think "Hmm well I did install all this homebrew stuff, maybe I should see if that caused the problem."

    Again, Palm really isn't to blame outside of blowing my mind that this didn't show up in beta testing. And the homebrew devs aren't to blame because Palm explicitly said they wouldn't touch any files in /var (and they didn't!). And even the users aren't REALLY to blame; they expect Palm's App Catalog to "just work" and because they don't have Linux/OSS experience they immediately assume Palm or the developer screwed up.
    Last edited by Leathal; 01/19/2010 at 11:51 AM.
  15. #15  
    I think uninformed homebrew users are far more to blame than any other group for this issue. Specifically the people who may have gotten their Pre loaded with Preware from Best Buy, or whatever.

    These are the people who have access to the homebrew, patches, and themes without ever having learned about just what they were doing. These are the people who would have no idea to turn to this forum to fix an issue, because they never came here in the first place.

    To be clear, I don't blame them, I blame whoever put Preware on the phone and didn't explain - in detail - where to go for support, as well as the risk involved in using it.
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  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Spader View Post
    I think uninformed homebrew users are far more to blame than any other group for this issue. Specifically the people who may have gotten their Pre loaded with Preware from Best Buy, or whatever.

    These are the people who have access to the homebrew, patches, and themes without ever having learned about just what they were doing. These are the people who would have no idea to turn to this forum to fix an issue, because they never came here in the first place.

    To be clear, I don't blame them, I blame whoever put Preware on the phone and didn't explain - in detail - where to go for support, as well as the risk involved in using it.
    Seriously? Retailers are selling Pre's with Preware already installed?
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveChelios View Post
    Seriously? Retailers are selling Pre's with Preware already installed?
    I have never heard of such a thing. I really doubt that any retailer would put Preware on someone's phone, especially since doing so requires installing WebOSQI on a computer first. I've purchased a phone from BB in the past, and all they did was give me the phone.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by oddlou View Post
    I have never heard of such a thing. I really doubt that any retailer would put Preware on someone's phone, especially since doing so requires installing WebOSQI on a computer first. I've purchased a phone from BB in the past, and all they did was give me the phone.
    That's what I thought but didn't want to assume I knew Best Buy's practices.

    For all I know they have a Geek Squad PC set up in the back with WOSQI installed, running those phones through to load them up on patches before they go out the door!
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveChelios View Post
    That's what I thought but didn't want to assume I knew Best Buy's practices.

    For all I know they have a Geek Squad PC set up in the back with WOSQI installed, running those phones through to load them up on patches before they go out the door!
    I guess it's possible- but I still highly doubt it. From what I know about the geek squad, they'd probably charge like 30 bucks to install it!
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Leathal View Post
    For those who haven't noticed, 1.3.5 fixed the infamous app limit by moving all apps to a new directory inside /media. Unfortunately, homebrew apps were not migrated to their new home because they didn't sit in the same folder as "official" apps. As I understand it, this is the ultimate cause of the "Reboot to install" error that many people have gotten when trying to download an app from the official catalog.

    Normally this wouldn't be a huge deal; in fact the WebOS Internals guys released an Emergency Migration Tool that fixed the problem. But it relies on the users to install it, and many simply are not technically capable enough to do so without an exhaustive tutorial with pretty pictures
    An interesting question, although I would take some issue with the idea that Homebrew and the app migration issue is the root cause. First, anyone who's installed Homebrew stuff should be technically skilled enough to use the EMT ... same packaging and installation. Second, I perused the main thread in the dev forum, and there are a couple of different issues going on there. I also wonder if saying "debacle" and "flooded" aren't a little over-the-top.

    But the main point is still valid in a more general way I think ... whether Palm's "open" approach is going to lose more customers (the non-techy ones) than it gains. I certainly hope not, because for me a it's become a main draw (although I have to admit I didn't think about it that much when I bought the Pre). There's certainly the possibility it will upset some folks (and by extension some developers) ... but in general I think the non-tech users will simply chose to avoid the issue by not "tweaking" their phones ... and I think Palm will "win" by getting more developer (and pseudo-developer) interest this way.
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