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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    So the 17,000 apps or so for Android came before or after the Droid?

    The Droid is one of the five Android handsets AT&T is launching within the next six months?

    The Droid is available on more than one carrier in the US?

    It's a successful handset, but it is not solely or even primarily responsible for Android's success to date.
    How many apps were available how soon after the release of the G1? That was, of course, the first available Android device. And just how did the G1 do in the market? How long did it take for Android to get to a significant installed base?

    Enquiring minds want to know...
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I agree that having Android available to multiple handset makers helps it succeed, but the advertising for these phones put android in the forefront, highlighting its strengths and creating a powerful meme that has spread throughout the public. Once people are aware of the OS, they look into it deeper and discover more of the advantages it has over other OS's.
    Take the G1. That phone was far from mature, but the inclusion of Android, and the way the G1 advertised itself as the 1st phone running the new OS, is what started the Android coming out party.
    Palm needs to get it's OS out there, and highlight it in a way that consumers not only understand, but showcases how it can streamline their lives. You're right, one effective ad MIGHT do it, but I would like to see an ad campaign, maybe similar to the PC/Mac spots, that really gets webOS and the pre/pixi out there.
    It's not just a matter of making people aware of the Pre, and then you sit back and watch as sales go through the roof. A lot of likely buyers ARE aware of the Pre just as they are aware of build quality issues, frequent exchanges required, and other miscellaneous issues. That's all part of the first impression the Pre made upon the world.

    Palm should be highlighting the OS to undo some of that damage, but the rest can only be undone by Palm getting the hardware right the first time for this Verizon launch (signs are encouraging thus far) and getting a grip on battery and random "too many cards" errors that are still frustrating users even after 1.3.5.

    And I have to tell you, although it obviously works well for you, "just holding the home button for 2 seconds and then tapping the app that you want to go to" sounds nowhere near as easy or as quick as the pre's abilities. Just sayin...
    Well, you haven't used both extensively. I have. The Pre's multitasking rocks, but becomes more burdensome the more cards you have open.

    Let's say I have a Gmail thread in Gmail with about 8 responses in it that you need to continuously read and refer to, AND I am running Pandora, AND I am running Spint Navigation, and I want multiple websites up too.

    Well, each one of those things requires ONE card. And to get from the beginning to the end, you must swipe ONE at a time until you reach the one you need.

    In Android, all of the web pages run within ONE instance of the browser, just like Safari on the iPhone. And the Gmail app threads your mail just as it does on the desktop so you can track email conversations on one screen easily. I'd need maybe FOUR apps/cards up to do all of that. And I'd barely have to switch at all.

    WebOS would require way more cards and way more swiping between all of them.

    There's no one perfect multitasking solution for every situation. There's no one perfect handset for every situation either. Just depends.

    WebOS is better at some things. Android is better at others. I can function daily with either, but Sprint's Android solution offers far more reliable hardware to me thus far. Palm changes that, and maybe a few other things....I'd love to come back.
  3.    #23  
    BTW, can't wait to see how iphone supporters answer this question. Anyone want to bet that they sidestep it and instead ask if webOS or android can do something their phone can do? I'd just like to ask you guys how your phones would handle the example I put forward. We can discuss how you think certain aspects of your OS's are better in other ways somewhere else.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    It is absolutely not the sole reason why Android has been successful. But you can't discount the huge impact that the Droid has had on the public perception of the Android OS. Hell, it's called the Droid! You see handset makers pushing the fact that their phones run android, and then a monster phone comes along and shoves it out there for all to see. Android may have been successful before, but it is poised for a takeover with a gigantic boost from Droid. And that all comes down to advertising.
    But they have to actually advertise SOMETHING. The Droid was the first mainstream handset with 3.7-inch hi-res capacitive screen. It was the first with Android 2.0. The first with Google Nav. The first on the number one carrier domestically. They can't just throw money at it to make people buy it. The ads have to advertise something people want.

    Not trying to diminish the Android platform at all. Just showing the effect advertising has on a product, and has had in the growing success of Android. My original statement was that webOS can multitask better than any other OS out there, and with the pre (and to a lesser extent, the pixi), Palm has the perfect form factor to utilize it. They just need to display their product to the public, and a successful advertising campaign is the best way to do that. Here's to hoping that Palm and Verizon come up with one.
    Better ads would absolutely help Palm, but better hardware and more finished software is just as integral.

    BTW, I do like your defense of Android. It shows how great products produce equally loyal users. I just differ in that I'm a webOS user with a little Android experience, and I think webOS comes out on top.
    That's where you're mistaken. I'm not loyal to Android. The HTC Hero suits my needs for the moment. I wouldn't hesitate to jump to another platform that suited them better whenever it arrives at Sprint. I'd jump back to WebOS in two shakes of a lamb's tail if they had what I needed. There's no reason, IMHO, to have brand loyalty.
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    And to get from the beginning to the end, you must swipe ONE at a time until you reach the one you need.
    Only partially true. When in card view touch on an open part of the screen and you go into mini-card view which allows you to swipe 3-4 cards or more at a time. Much easier when you have many apps open.

    EDIT: Actually I just tested it with 7 cards open and was able to, with one swipe, swipe through all cards with one gesture.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    How many apps were available how soon after the release of the G1? That was, of course, the first available Android device. And just how did the G1 do in the market? How long did it take for Android to get to a significant installed base?

    Enquiring minds want to know...
    Android achieved 2,300 or so apps in less than five months, according to Wikipedia. The device sold 1 million units in just less than six months. The MyTouch 3G dwarfed those numbers by shipping in several countries at once and had reached the million sold mark just weeks after T-Mobile started selling it.

    Not too many hard numbers available beyond that.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by jaywaller View Post
    This is not true. When in card view touch on open part of the screen and you go into mini-card view which allows you to swipe 3-4 cards or more at a time. Much easier when you have many apps open.
    Mini card view would do very little to make the scenario I described more efficient.
  8. chino0131's Avatar
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    #28  
    I own both an HTC Hero and a Palm Pre and I must say that I keep coming back to the Pre. Both are elegant phones in their own way, and both have strengths and weaknesses that make each better in their own way (IMO). However, when it comes to multi tasking QUICKLY, the Pre cannot be beat IMO. Swiping between cards is so much quicker than hitting buttons/holding buttons to move around. I clocked how long it took me to do something as simple as find a contact starting from the home screen on both phones. The Pre was seamless and quick. Just start typing and its there. Hero, not quite as simple. Easy...yes, but still not comparable to the Pre. The multitasking on the Hero is far from as quick and useful as that on the Pre IMO.
    Before anyone else mentions it here, Im sure there are those that will say that you can multitask on the iphone via jailbreak. I've done it on my iphone, but still prefer the Pre. Every owner of a phone seems to make excuses why their phone is the best and why they have no need for a function such as multitasking. To each his own. I'm sure there are those that truly have no need for multitasking the way the Pre does it. However, in my experience, after having my Pre and playing with my iphone, the user experience to me on the iphone is now slow and awkward when compared to the Pre. The iphone is still great as is android. This is just my own opinion, so before anyone jumps on me, keep in mind this is just one mans opinion and will not make your phone jealous if you do not defend it.
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by yoshk View Post
    My cowroker snapped a pic of a lady who almost hit her. The lady was holding one phone to her head, texting on another and eating all while driving.
    Obviously didn't have the iPhone.... Sorry, had to.
  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    It's not just a matter of making people aware of the Pre, and then you sit back and watch as sales go through the roof. A lot of likely buyers ARE aware of the Pre just as they are aware of build quality issues, frequent exchanges required, and other miscellaneous issues. That's all part of the first impression the Pre made upon the world.

    Palm should be highlighting the OS to undo some of that damage, but the rest can only be undone by Palm getting the hardware right the first time for this Verizon launch (signs are encouraging thus far) and getting a grip on battery and random "too many cards" errors that are still frustrating users even after 1.3.5.



    Well, you haven't used both extensively. I have. The Pre's multitasking rocks, but becomes more burdensome the more cards you have open.

    Let's say I have a Gmail thread in Gmail with about 8 responses in it that you need to continuously read and refer to, AND I am running Pandora, AND I am running Spint Navigation, and I want multiple websites up too.

    Well, each one of those things requires ONE card. And to get from the beginning to the end, you must swipe ONE at a time until you reach the one you need.

    In Android, all of the web pages run within ONE instance of the browser, just like Safari on the iPhone. And the Gmail app threads your mail just as it does on the desktop so you can track email conversations on one screen easily. I'd need maybe FOUR apps/cards up to do all of that. And I'd barely have to switch at all.

    WebOS would require way more cards and way more swiping between all of them.

    There's no one perfect multitasking solution for every situation. There's no one perfect handset for every situation either. Just depends.

    WebOS is better at some things. Android is better at others. I can function daily with either, but Sprint's Android solution offers far more reliable hardware to me thus far. Palm changes that, and maybe a few other things....I'd love to come back.
    I agree that I haven't used android as extensively as you have, just a bit here and there on friends' or coworkers' phones. But I think your Gmail example is rather obscure when compared to an ordinary user's needs. They are more than likely looking to switch from browser to browser to Pandora to email to nav to...(feel free to insert any application you like). For this, it is much easier and faster to swipe between cards. You can also go to card view and look at all the apps you have open in a miniature view and quickly move between a large number of cards, and can even rearrange the order that your cards are in. Much quicker, much simpler, and much more elegant solution to multitasking than what android can (currently) offer.
    although the android solution may work better for you (and I never said that the pre was for EVERYONE), I believe it handles tasks like the one I laid out better than anything else out there today. And you're right. The hardware bug did bite hard. I myself am on my third pre, which thankfully has only had a slight oreo since I got it in Sept. And I don't think a successful ad campaign will cause an explosion in sales comparable to iphone or droid numbers. But what it will do is bring more and more users to the OS, helping Palm put out more and more devices, with better hardwar, and continue to grow. And that is what, in the end, is most important to me. I want Palm to be successful because I'm selfish, and I want more and more webOS handsets to be available to me for as long as possible.
    thank you for this discussion. It is good to see reasonable, thought out debate, rather than ideological rants and name calling I've seen from others. Cheers mikah!
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  11. chino0131's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    BTW, can't wait to see how iphone supporters answer this question. Anyone want to bet that they sidestep it and instead ask if webOS or android can do something their phone can do? I'd just like to ask you guys how your phones would handle the example I put forward. We can discuss how you think certain aspects of your OS's are better in other ways somewhere else.
    Iphone users (at least the ones I've come in contact on this site) will defend the iphone to their death. While their loyalty is commendable,some obviously do feel the need for multitasking even if they wont admit it. On these types of sites, the most frequent iphone user response to multitasking is jailbreaking. The majority of my family (myself included before PRE), and the majority of my friends and in laws all own an iphone. NONE have ever heard of the Pre, except for my wife and my brother in law(who works for Sprint). NONE have also ever heard of Jailbreaking an iphone. ALL wish their iphone could multitask like the Pre.
  12.    #32  
    I like brand loyalty. It helps keep the manufacturers going to keep their base happy. Otherwise, like you said, it will be easy for them to jump ship to another platform if they don't keep up.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    But I think your Gmail example is rather obscure when compared to an ordinary user's needs.
    Gmail is obscure? Wanting to use the threading feature on Gmail is something an "ordinary user" wouldn't be heavily into? I'd...have to disagree.

    They are more than likely looking to switch from browser to browser to Pandora to email to nav to...(feel free to insert any application you like). For this, it is much easier and faster to swipe between cards. You can also go to card view and look at all the apps you have open in a miniature view and quickly move between a large number of cards, and can even rearrange the order that your cards are in. Much quicker, much simpler, and much more elegant solution to multitasking than what android can (currently) offer.
    Actually, within the Android web browser (Well, at least on the Hero), you have "cards" that you swipe horizontally between in both bookmark and multiwindow (think Firefox) modes. But it is kinetic scrolling instead of individual swiping. So it only takes one swipe to get from web page number 1 to number 20 or any inbetween. Just tap the one you want to stop it, and tap again to launch it immediately. No reloading.

    Again, each platform has usability advantages the other does not have. I definitely miss some things from WebOS as an Android user, but if I went back, I would definitely miss some Android features.

    But yeah...it's been a fun discussion. Hopefully, it keeps rolling.
  14. #34  
    I've been a Palm user for years and owned several Treos, etc. The iphone was a test phone that I fell in love with. However, once the Pre came out, I jumped the apple ship on day one. I LOVED the Pre, however...

    When you're using the Nav app or looking up a map or using data in any way, that all gets put on hold while on a call. My wife called me just before I had to make a couple of turns and my Pre told me the Nav app could not be used while on a call! That was it! No data and voice simultaneously was a deal breaker for me.

    I moved back to the iphone and found that after jailbreaking it, I was able to get the same multitasking functions of the Pre, but on my iphone. All the features that the Pre has are available on the iphone through brilliant developers who are happy to modify it.

    In short, I still have an iphone and the real deal breaker for the Pre was the data/voice combination issues of Sprint (and Verizon for that matter). Sorry to say it, but the iphone wins again. Don't hate me. I still love the Pre. It's Sprint that fell short.
  15. ads
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    #35  
    is about twice the risk as driving under the influence for causing accidents. I've not seen data comparing most your other examples to talking/texting, but all this stuff is starting to look like a bad idea. Personally, I think reading a paper/book/webnews is probably the worst. My supposition here is that it isn't only visual, you have to think about it some too.
    If the OP is really doing *all* the parallel tasks mentioned in his fictitious example, it is only a matter of time. The people you come up on doing 50 in the fast lane while talking do NOT realize they're doing so, and we can all think, "not me", but the evidence suggests otherwise.

    His example, OTOH, should be a commercial - well, maybe in a restaurant. Kinda like the AT&T commercials about the verizon guy needing two phones to do two things at once.

    ADS

    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    I was almost side-swiped the other day by a lady with her dog sitting on her lap. In the past, I've seen people eating, shaving, putting on makeup, reading the newspaper, talking animatedly (and distractedly) to the person sitting next to them, shuffling through a briefcase, talking on a CB radio, checking their teeth in the vanity mirror, adjusting their rearview mirror for an excessive mount of time, rocking the stereo so loudly that they couldn't hear an ambulance trying to get past them, etc., etc., etc.

    Using a cellphone is no more nor less dangerous than any of those time honored traditions.
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    But they have to actually advertise SOMETHING. The Droid was the first mainstream handset with 3.7-inch hi-res capacitive screen. It was the first with Android 2.0. The first with Google Nav. The first on the number one carrier domestically. They can't just throw money at it to make people buy it. The ads have to advertise something people want.
    I think you've just proved my point. I believe webOS, with it's beauty and innovative multitasking abilities, DOES give people something that they want, just as the droid gave users the Android experience that they wanted. And the hardware itself DOES appeal to many people. The physical keyboard, the smaller form factor which still offers a 3.1" capacitive screen, these are things that many people prefer, but do not know that exists because the either have not heard of the Palm Pre, or don't know what the software offers. The droid may have been successful, but may have been just another large screen slider running android and wouldn't have been the game changer it was without the incredible ad campaign that showcased it's attributes. Hell, I see droid commercials all over the place, but pre and pixi commercials are few and far between. (And I'm talking about commercials that are solely about these devices, not a quick mention in a Sprint commercial). I do hope that the pre plus brings better hardware with it, because with the 1.4 update, 16 GB of storage, and a fantastic 512 MB of memory, Palm is poised to bring a break out product to the industry. Given they can advertise it effectivley .
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by ads View Post
    is about twice the risk as driving under the influence for causing accidents. I've not seen data comparing most your other examples to talking/texting, but all this stuff is starting to look like a bad idea. Personally, I think reading a paper/book/webnews is probably the worst. My supposition here is that it isn't only visual, you have to think about it some too.
    If the OP is really doing *all* the parallel tasks mentioned in his fictitious example, it is only a matter of time. The people you come up on doing 50 in the fast lane while talking do NOT realize they're doing so, and we can all think, "not me", but the evidence suggests otherwise.

    His example, OTOH, should be a commercial - well, maybe in a restaurant. Kinda like the AT&T commercials about the verizon guy needing two phones to do two things at once.

    ADS
    There's evidence because so much more time and money have been spent studying it. I'd like to see studies about distracted driving in general--I'm sure the results would be similar.

    Ultimately, it comes down to what kind of driver you are. Some folks are dangerous if they're 100% focused on the task. An F1 driver could probably compose the sequel to War and Peace while driving and be safer than most of us.

    I see the "using a cellphone while driving" thing as another bugaboo to strip us of our liberty.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
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    #38  
    I have a PRE for my personal phone and an iPhone 3G for work. I use both daily as each has its benefits to me. In my case, the PRE wins the "multitasking" prize as I do not wish to jailbreak my iPhone. A multitasking program is available for jailbroken iPhones, but doing this procedure is very cumbersome. As for taking a phone call and looking at an email, both can do this, but the PRE can have more running in the background where I can only do one task and a phone call on the iPhone.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I think you've just proved my point. I believe webOS, with it's beauty and innovative multitasking abilities, DOES give people something that they want, just as the droid gave users the Android experience that they wanted. And the hardware itself DOES appeal to many people. The physical keyboard, the smaller form factor which still offers a 3.1" capacitive screen, these are things that many people prefer, but do not know that exists because the either have not heard of the Palm Pre, or don't know what the software offers. The droid may have been successful, but may have been just another large screen slider running android and wouldn't have been the game changer it was without the incredible ad campaign that showcased it's attributes. Hell, I see droid commercials all over the place, but pre and pixi commercials are few and far between. (And I'm talking about commercials that are solely about these devices, not a quick mention in a Sprint commercial). I do hope that the pre plus brings better hardware with it, because with the 1.4 update, 16 GB of storage, and a fantastic 512 MB of memory, Palm is poised to bring a break out product to the industry. Given they can advertise it effectivley .
    Paragraphs, man! Paragraphs.

    Anyways, I agree, but the unfortunate fact is that neither Sprint nor Palm likely have $100 million to spend on a campaign like Verizon spent on the Droid campaign. I understand why Verizon did it--they've really, really need something to combat the iPhone.

    The interesting question will be: how much will Verizon spend to promote the Pre Plus/Pixi Plus? I'm guessing it will be significant (although probably not as much as with the Droid), because WebOS will likely appeal to the "consumer" market where Droid (and Android in general, I think) primarily appeals to the techie/geek crowd.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  20. chino0131's Avatar
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by ads View Post
    is about twice the risk as driving under the influence for causing accidents. I've not seen data comparing most your other examples to talking/texting, but all this stuff is starting to look like a bad idea. Personally, I think reading a paper/book/webnews is probably the worst. My supposition here is that it isn't only visual, you have to think about it some too.
    If the OP is really doing *all* the parallel tasks mentioned in his fictitious example, it is only a matter of time. The people you come up on doing 50 in the fast lane while talking do NOT realize they're doing so, and we can all think, "not me", but the evidence suggests otherwise.

    His example, OTOH, should be a commercial - well, maybe in a restaurant. Kinda like the AT&T commercials about the verizon guy needing two phones to do two things at once.

    ADS
    I know Car& Driver Magazine did a study in one of their issues this past summer. They mentioned that TEXTING while driving slowed reaction time more so than a few drinks. They had their two people take a few drinks and tested their reaction time on a closed course while tipsy and not texting, and while sober and texting. Texting slowed the reaction time on those two guys. IMO, nothing will ever get everyone stop texting and/or using their phone while driving. You can get ticketed in my state for doing it, but no one cares. They can only get you if they pull you over for another infraction, not texting.
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