Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 53
  1. #21  
    I have to agree with Darth Mo. OS software is built in layers. It should be relatively seemless to the top level applications when the GPU comes active. Some layer below will stop translating the render instructions to code that can execute on the CPU and instead will translate the render instructions to code that executes on the GPU. The render instructions from the apps should remain exactly the same.

    An example of this is in linux when you use the framebuffer driver for X-windows vs. a hardware card. You don't have to change any of end user applications. You simply change a layer below and instead of rendering in the slow software framebuffer, it renders in the fast hardware.

    This happens in windows, too. Long ago, you didn't have hardware accelerated 2d/3d graphics cards. Graphics cards used to be just hunks of memory. You wrote a pixel to a hunk of memory and the card displayed that hunk on the screen. All of the rendering of data into the pixels was done by the graphics driver. Then along came hardware accelerated rendering. You changed the driver - which kept the APIs to the user applications the same - and instead of the driver having to calculate what value went into a memory location, the hardware did it. The user application stayed exactly the same - it just ran much faster.

    I would be *extremely* surprised if Palm didn't also design webos around this principle. This is a very old design principle. Not using it is roughly equivalent to designing a house w/out plumbing. Sure you can do it, but why on earth would you?
    Twitter: dullgeek
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by ho0lee0h View Post
    Well hasn't anyone noticed that the videos in the youtube app look much sharper?
    The only thing I've noticed that seems different to me is that my cards in cardview mode seem to have shadows now. I don't recall that being the case before. And a quick google image search doesn't immediately resolve the issue. That's something that I think could be done w/out the GPU rendering, but is a lot faster w/it.
    Twitter: dullgeek
  3. angiest's Avatar
    Posts
    933 Posts
    Global Posts
    952 Global Posts
    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by mu7efcer View Post
    The only thing I've noticed that seems different to me is that my cards in cardview mode seem to have shadows now. I don't recall that being the case before. And a quick google image search doesn't immediately resolve the issue. That's something that I think could be done w/out the GPU rendering, but is a lot faster w/it.
    Shadows and transparency with AIGLX and swrast are painfully slow in my experience. Granted, we aren't talking X which in many ways is overkill for a windowing environment, but the Pre has slower hardware that any recent system where I have been unfortunate enough to use swrast for any length of time (such as when kernel+nvidia gets out of sync and I can't make nouveau+gallium work).
  4.    #24  
    Seems to me there are two different discussions happening here.

    Certainly the max benefit of the GPU will not be seen until the code is optimized for OpenGL, but it is also not true that the GPU cannot function unless the UI is completely rewritten. At minimum, the GPU can still be offloading some of the software rendering from the CPU, even if the code is not optimized to take advantage of the specific instructions in the GPU or OpenGL.

    I'm still on the fence about this and tend to doubt it more than I did yesterday, but I don't think it's out of the question.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    You may be correct that it's not active, but your reasoning isn't sound.
    Yes it is You misunderstood my post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    Comparing them to WinMo devices with and without is apples to oranges. I'm not really sure what that means either; are you saying that you don't think the difference is big enough for the GPU being used? Perhaps you're taking "accelerated" too literally. Not everything needs to be sped up, just that it won't pull on the CPU as much freeing up resources.
    It isn't apples to oranges; you misunderstand me. I was only making the point that if you've used a WinMo device with hardware acceleration and compared it against one without, you'd know immediately what I was talking about (as well as comparing the display performance of a PC running driverless [generic display adapter] video versus running with the manufacturer's driver installed). No, I'm not taking "accelerated" too literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    And the animated gifs, no sure where you're going there. Any graphics, 2D or 3D, can utilize a graphics processor. The point about YouTube is irrelevant too. Video processors and 2D/3D processors are two different animals. If YouTube used Flash on the Pre, you would have an argue, but the fact that it's streaming video makes it irrelevant towards the GPU issue.
    You're misconstruing my statements there too. Someone posted a message surmising that the addition of animated GIF support may be an indicator of GPU acceleration. I was pointing out that that was nonsense: a device that can play YouTube videos and fluidly scroll along webpages without using any GPU acceleration certainly has the CPU horsepower to display a silly animated GIF.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    And about the developers needing a new SDK and other resources, who says that some don't already have them?
    It seems that you take each of my statements without any surrounding context. I never made that claim.

    As I said in my original post, another user on this thread claimed that he believed that certain apps were already being accelerated. With complete respect to him, that is preposterous. Because, among several other reasons (and if nothing else), we don't have a refreshed SDK that would allow for that type of development yet.

    Obviously Palm is working on development for these things; I was never claiming they weren't. All I was claiming was that the GPU is not being accessed in 1.3.5. That's it.

    I wasn't claiming no one anywhere had any ability to be developing accelerated apps -- obviously someone already has their hands on at least some of the necessarily tools or else we wouldn't have the infamous NFS video floating around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    Clearly if they're developing the GPU someone has to be creating content for it by now. It's just not ready for release.
    And that's exactly what I said: we need a new SDK released, among other things, before we will be seeing accelerated apps.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    Programming for the GPU isn't hard at all, it is just a ton of work and I don't think they are willing to go back and rewrite certain animations and actions to utilize the GPU. I still contend their strategy is to wait it out until CPUs are fast enough to easily handle these things. Until then, scrolling will be choppy, navigation will be laggy and animations won't be pretty. But it is a whole lot easier than trying to rebuild something they already consider to be functional. Android is doing the same thing.
    Who says they have to "go back" and rewrite animations? Look at Windows where you can check a box to have windows fade into the taskbar when minimized, or have windows that display content while dragging instead of an empty frame, or have shadows behind menus. These options are put in place to accommodate the varying systems out there. The situation here is no different. In the Pre's case, UI interface can be coded in parallel to include features designed for CPU only operation, as well as allowing enhanced features to run when the GPU is available. So when the GPU is available, "check all the boxes" that change the instructions and we're good to go.

    I can't really argue your opinion that you think Palm put a GPU with no intention of utilizing it, but to me that makes no sense. I don't care how many apps you have, the core of the phone is still the OS, and it's lagginess seems to be a significant complaint. There's non reason they wouldn't use every resource available to smooth it out.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by theweaselslayer View Post
    It isn't apples to oranges; you misunderstand me. I was only making the point that if you've used a WinMo device with hardware acceleration and compared it against one without, you'd know immediately what I was talking about (as well as comparing the display performance of a PC running driverless [generic display adapter] video versus running with the manufacturer's driver installed). No, I'm not taking "accelerated" too literally.

    You're misconstruing my statements there too. Someone posted a message surmising that the addition of animated GIF support may be an indicator of GPU acceleration. I was pointing out that that was nonsense: a device that can play YouTube videos and fluidly scroll along webpages without using any GPU acceleration certainly has the CPU horsepower to display a silly animated GIF.

    ...
    Your WinMo example is still flawed as you're compared a finished device to the same device with a feature removed. Heck, maybe the Pre's GPU just sucks. The Pre's (alleged) GPU support is not final, so it doesn't stack up equally. That is, a few features may be enabled, but no where near complete. In essence, possibly at beta now, with a final being much further out. Could be as little as one instruction at this point.

    The animated GIF comment is not nonsense. A device that can play YouTube videos and fluidly scroll along webpages without GPU acceleration should be able to scroll smoothly through it's own contact list. I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with your point, just that it doesn't necessarily debunk the theory the browser couldn't handle animated GIFs without GPU help when you watch the contact list spit and sputter. Should it plow through an animated GIF? Sure, I won't disagree with that.

    As for the SDK issue, you admit that there must be some people out there with access to the tools needed to utilize the GPU. Who knows if Palm has allowed some devs to secretly beta test it with some existing apps? Doesn't sound that far fetched to me. Your claim that none of the existing apps were developed with the tools is unsubstantiated.

    Who knows, they may have eighty-sixed some albatross process running in the background. I'm just saying the people saying it's impossible they've enabled the GPU at some level aren't providing anything more than conjecture and factless arguments.

    The only fact so far is that there is a substantial performance increase.
  8.    #28  
    I find it very interesting that none of the developers have stepped in to quash this idea.

    Makes you wonder if it's subject to the NDA they sign in exchange for early access?
  9. cooknn's Avatar
    Posts
    388 Posts
    Global Posts
    447 Global Posts
    #29  
    I'm with the OP on this. Although I know nothing about the internals of webOS, I wondered myself if they were already accessing the GPU at some level with this update.
    Dave Cook | Fort Myers, Florida | Palm pre | Touchstone | Vaja iVolution Deco
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    I don't know if you are joking, but that could be attributed to a lot of different things if that is actually the case. Maybe the video you are looking at is higher quality than the ones you were looking at. Maybe you are on a faster internet connection. Maybe YouTube is pushing through higher resolutions to you. But I don't know if a GPU would make things "sharper" but rather make the framerates play better.
    Not a joke. My netbook can't play HD youtube videos because my hardware can't read it efficiently. The NVIDIA ION(gpu) reads the HD video in other netbooks very well. I watch youtube videos all the time on my Pre and noticed better quality on 1.3.5. Maybe the GPU in the Pre is reading a better resolution?
  11. UF15's Avatar
    Posts
    104 Posts
    Global Posts
    105 Global Posts
    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    Who says they have to "go back" and rewrite animations? Look at Windows where you can check a box to have windows fade into the taskbar when minimized, or have windows that display content while dragging instead of an empty frame, or have shadows behind menus. These options are put in place to accommodate the varying systems out there. The situation here is no different. In the Pre's case, UI interface can be coded in parallel to include features designed for CPU only operation, as well as allowing enhanced features to run when the GPU is available. So when the GPU is available, "check all the boxes" that change the instructions and we're good to go.
    I find no argument that this sort of thing can be done and has been done with other platforms. But that increases the amount of work, and I really feel like Palm likely didn't do this, especially since there hasn't been a smidgen of support that they have despite all the infiltration into WebOS. From all the reports here, it looks like these sort of things will have to be retrofitted into existing software.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    I can't really argue your opinion that you think Palm put a GPU with no intention of utilizing it, but to me that makes no sense. I don't care how many apps you have, the core of the phone is still the OS, and it's lagginess seems to be a significant complaint. There's non reason they wouldn't use every resource available to smooth it out.
    Why is the GPU there? There are a lot of ways to answer that. Firstly, probably, because it comes with the chipset and you can't really get one without it. Secondly, they probably wanted it for games more than anything. But I also think that their longterm approach with such a platform is to get out an OS that can support the GPU for things like games, but can eventually be rendered entirely by more powerful CPUs in 2010 and 2011. Yeah, it would be rocky until then, but they didn't have the time or resources to do it right. That is why WebOS still doesn't have hardware acceleration and probably never will, save for games and third party apps.

    The bottom line to me is that the Pre is borderline unusable with how choppy and laggy it is compared with the iPhone 3GS and probably the Snapdragon Android phones. Either they need to get serious about utilizing the GPU in the same way the iPhone OS does, or they better pray that Snapdragon and above can render their animations and scrolling better. Because this isn't working for me and apparently not for many (not all) people here. Their unwillingness to do something about it in the last 6 months is unnerving . . . but that is another topic.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    I find no argument that this sort of thing can be done and has been done with other platforms. But that increases the amount of work, and I really feel like Palm likely didn't do this, especially since there hasn't been a smidgen of support that they have despite all the infiltration into WebOS. From all the reports here, it looks like these sort of things will have to be retrofitted into existing software.
    Not to be rude, but what you think and because you haven't heard about it is at best educated guesswork. I can counter and say I feel like they did the extra work because of the competition, and I haven't heard about because it's still under development and therefore confidential. Neither arguments have any concrete evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15
    Why is the GPU there? There are a lot of ways to answer that. Firstly, probably, because it comes with the chipset and you can't really get one without it. Secondly, they probably wanted it for games more than anything. But I also think that their longterm approach with such a platform is to get out an OS that can support the GPU for things like games, but can eventually be rendered entirely by more powerful CPUs in 2010 and 2011. Yeah, it would be rocky until then, but they didn't have the time or resources to do it right. That is why WebOS still doesn't have hardware acceleration and probably never will, save for games and third party apps.
    The ARM Cortex 8 processor the Pre uses is available without a graphics DSP, so that's not a reason. I disagree with your assertion that more powerful CPUs will eliminate the need for graphics coprocessors. CPUs on PCs have increased probably 100-fold in processing power the last 10 years, but you still need a powerful video card to play high end graphics. Why? Because multimedia applications will always push hardware to it's limit and sometimes beyond. If there's some CPU power there, software will be written to use it. Not too many programmers will happily "leave a little on the side" for graphics when graphics will likely take up more processing power than the application itself. Hoping CPUs will eliminate GPUs is a fool's errand. Look what happened the last time a device (iPhone) came along and rewrote what we thought cell phones were currently capable of at the time. When you wait and hope, you get your doors blown off as everyone rushes by.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15
    The bottom line to me is that the Pre is borderline unusable with how choppy and laggy it is compared with the iPhone 3GS and probably the Snapdragon Android phones. Either they need to get serious about utilizing the GPU in the same way the iPhone OS does, or they better pray that Snapdragon and above can render their animations and scrolling better. Because this isn't working for me and apparently not for many (not all) people here. Their unwillingness to do something about it in the last 6 months is unnerving . . . but that is another topic.
    Unless you work for Palm, there is no way you know how many resources they are devoting to the task. Could be none, could be the #1 priority. The fact that the UI is as rough as it is (though much improved for some in 1.3.5), the more reason for them to want to iron it out, especially since the hardware is there. As for the last 6 months, it's clear the phone was released well before it was ready to counter the iPhone 3GS. Having to deal with a beta device out in the wild has to have slowed the in-house development. But, this isn't the first time a new device was released before it was finished and definitely won't be the last.

    I probably wouldn't be having this debate a week ago. But with 1.3.5, it's clear they've figured something out. Just have to see how it shakes out.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    ...
    Why is the GPU there? There are a lot of ways to answer that. Firstly, probably, because it comes with the chipset and you can't really get one without it. Secondly, they probably wanted it for games more than anything. But I also think that their longterm approach with such a platform is to get out an OS that can support the GPU for things like games, but can eventually be rendered entirely by more powerful CPUs in 2010 and 2011. Yeah, it would be rocky until then, but they didn't have the time or resources to do it right. That is why WebOS still doesn't have hardware acceleration and probably never will, save for games and third party apps...
    Four words:
    Google this: Matthew Tippett
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Four words:
    Google this: Matthew Tippett
    hell of a resume. i'm smiling at this moment, thank you very much.
  15. cooknn's Avatar
    Posts
    388 Posts
    Global Posts
    447 Global Posts
    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Four words:
    Google this: Matthew Tippett
    Hey, Matthew if you're reading THANK YOU Can't wait to see what is in store for webOS.
    Dave Cook | Fort Myers, Florida | Palm pre | Touchstone | Vaja iVolution Deco
  16. #36  
    are you a mind reader?
    you have inside information
    share more!
  17. #37  
    DOOM!
    hit up that thanks button
  18. ohioviper's Avatar
    Posts
    30 Posts
    Global Posts
    31 Global Posts
    #38  
    Doom.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    Your WinMo example is still flawed as you're compared a finished device to the same device with a feature removed.
    This is getting quite petty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    Heck, maybe the Pre's GPU just sucks.
    This is nonsense. The PowerVR chipset in the Pre is the same as the iPhone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    The animated GIF comment is not nonsense. A device that can play YouTube videos and fluidly scroll along webpages without GPU acceleration should be able to scroll smoothly through it's own contact list. I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with your point, just that it doesn't necessarily debunk the theory the browser couldn't handle animated GIFs without GPU help when you watch the contact list spit and sputter. Should it plow through an animated GIF? Sure, I won't disagree with that.
    The animated GIF idea was suggested by a user with little understanding of computing concepts -- no offense to that user, but it is what it is -- I suppose if you want to play devil's advocate just for the sake of arguing that my viewpoint has no more "facts" than the opposing viewpoint, that's up to you. Either way, it still remains that playing an animated GIF is far less intensive than scrolling through a list of contacts with pictures attached (again, compare this on any driverless device for reference). The contacts app is poorly written, as we all know, and that is why it is slow. This is not in dispute.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    Your claim that none of the existing apps were developed with the tools is unsubstantiated.
    The claim that there were some is the unsubstantiated claim. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that they are. This is silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Mo View Post
    I'm just saying the people saying it's impossible they've enabled the GPU at some level aren't providing anything more than conjecture and factless arguments.
    The people who are claiming that the GPU is enabled at some level aren't providing anything more than conjecture and factless arguments. They're essentially making faith-based claims that it is ("I want to believe it is" and "I think certain apps are, I just have no idea which ones", etc), and based on the content of their writing, it is easy to conclude that they have naive understanding of computing concepts (which is why they are making the claims they are making).

    The new webOSinternals DOOM app out proves again that that the groundwork has indeed been layed for accelerated apps (as we've seen the NFS demo previously), but if you read their comments about their work you'll also see that the rest of the OS is not being accelerated at this time.

    There is no evidence to show that it is being accelerated, therefore I conclude that it is not.

    I will not be discussing this any further.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by theweaselslayer View Post
    I will not be discussing this any further.
    Best news I've heard all day.
    Treo 300 > Hitachi G1000 > PPC-6700 > PPC-6800 (Mogul) > PPC-6850 (Touch Pro) > Palm Pre & HTC EVO Optimus V
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions