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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    To tell you the truth, I thought it was an emulator (I should've read closer). But regardless, you know what i'm trying to say though. The GUI development tool is a whole calendar year too late, imo.
    Could be, but it's really not a necessity. A gui tool like that just makes it easier to position the little "gadgets" (sorry, can't think of a better term, Visual Basic still haunts me from time to time) and set up the scenes.

    Really, the comparison was drawn before about Visual Basic, and this is very much like that. Just a lot easier to drag a button around, than to type in a position, run the emulator, see if was where you really wanted it, reposition, try again, etc...
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    [b]

    ...
    Why couldn't they do the emulator six months before launch to give the devs a head start?
    How could they try to grow a tree without planting the seeds and watering them beforehand?

    My guess is that their priority was to release the Pre as soon as they could in order to save the company by producing some income. No time to wait for such things as SDK's.

    In your original post you talked about "where to draw the line". That's the whole problem with judgements about quality. Very subjective and personal. It's probably better to have to wade through the crap than have applications excluded at somebody's whim.

    On reflection, I think that the $50 fee is a good filter mechanism. The present problem is probably due to the current exemption.
  3.    #23  
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  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by johncc View Post
    My guess is that their priority was to release the Pre as soon as they could in order to save the company by producing some income. No time to wait for such things as SDK's.

    In your original post you talked about "where to draw the line". That's the whole problem with judgements about quality. Very subjective and personal. It's probably better to have to wade through the crap than have applications excluded at somebody's whim.

    On reflection, I think that the $50 fee is a good filter mechanism. The present problem is probably due to the current exemption.
    I'd rather wade knee deep through sludge to get to the quality stuff too.
  5. Xyg
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I think the emphasis should be on the marketplace. Palm should accept programs that technically run correct, don't break laws, and let the market place decide.

    I'm still unsure how I feel abut the $50 per app "friction" plan. Sounds like it might help the situation, but generally speaking, I'm against disincentives.
    I see the $50 fee more as an incentive that encourages certain behavior - glass half full I guess.
  6. Xyg
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    #26  
    I think a lot of the issue is how people are currently discovering applications, namely going to Recent and browsing the Catalog that way. When the App Catalog starts to fill up, people will use the explore section to find apps, and this won't be as big a deal.
  7. #27  
    There is a lot of confusion on this board about the iPhone's success. Apple did not "fool" any gullible people into thinking that a ton of apps is what's important in a phone. Apple never wanted to open app development beyond a web platform. Apple resisted the whole app universe until popular demand became too loud to ignore.

    Apple did not start marketing apps until long after the iPhone was successful. The iPhone is not a product of good marketing. iPhone commercials are simple, and show one or two benefits of using the phone. There is nothing fancy or compelling about the ads. They succeed with simplicity.

    So why are there so many iPhone apps? Simple, the iPhone is a compelling device that appeals to a large cross section of people. The whole app store phenomenon was an accident. Apple never planned for it. It went viral. Apple never used extraordinary measures to draw developers. They are strict about what can be sold in the app store. They do not allow access to all APIs. They reject apps arbitrarily. Many big name developers are on record, publicly criticizing the process. Yet, they have more developers and apps poring in than they can deal with. They iPhone was a world beating, paradigm shifting device before there were apps. Everyone with a modicum of programing inclination wants a piece of the action.

    Palm does not need to focus on encouraging more apps or better apps. They need to focus on compelling products that have a mass appeal. The apps will take care of themselves.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Do you think it's more important to just get as many apps out to us as possible, so it looks like there's some kind of movement?
    That's the problem...it looks like there is some kind of movement alright....a bowel movement.
  9. #29  
    Originally posted by dandbj13:
    . . .Palm does not need to focus on encouraging more apps or better apps. They need to focus on compelling products that have a mass appeal. The apps will take care of themselves.
    The last statement was so eloquent and on target, I felt it deserved repeating. Most of us that have the Pre waited for the Pre and didn't get the iPhone or left the iPhone for a reason.

    Personally, I left VZW and came to Sprint for the Pre. I wouldn't switch to another phone w/o hearing from other Power users, even if the phone came to Sprint. In addition, I like the Pre and WebOS. I see no reason to leave this platform. When I moved to the Pre from my Treo 700p, my initial thought was if this doesn't work, I'll give up on smart phones and go back to a basic flip phone. That's how adverse I was to the iPhone and BB RIM.

    Don't get me wrong. I think BB and the iPhone are great phones, but just for other people. Now the Pre has spoiled me and makes me think if I could adjust to this new platform, I could try something else. Thus, use of the Pre has turned me into a user who will think about other smartphones if WebOS doesn't make it.

    I so hope WebOS stays and grows, because I cringe at the thought of even touching one of those other devices.
  10. #30  
    i agree on quality apps . the apps that we've been getting on the pre though some are ok, i would like to see more impressive ones .. and the games that we have so far stink . i mean this thing has a great screen for graphix , lets use it . the precorder needs to be upgraded sometimes it wrx and others .. **** . and where the heck is the street view on the google maps ... week week week .. please let adobe speed up the drop of 10.1 and may it solve a lot of these probs ,or maybe even 1.3.5 from palm will help .any way, i would like to see better gamming and apps that are useful .
    Last edited by christoph a. reynolds; 12/24/2009 at 10:39 PM.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post

    Palm does not need to focus on encouraging more apps or better apps. They need to focus on compelling products that have a mass appeal. The apps will take care of themselves.
    Very nice. It's another way of saying what i've been trying to. The apps will come as will sdk evolvement. Focus on sales now which means having a product with mass appeal. One look at the Round Robin and you'll see that each platform has a big screen phone of some kind. Even better screens is the trend now and upcoming. The Pre is smallest, plasticy, and a bit too niche IMO which is based on my experiences, reading around, etc. The Pixi is aimed too low which really shouldn't be something to aim at.

    Marketing by showing off webOS's strengths would be a good start for Palm. But that window of time is shrinking. There's room to be aggressive later.
  12.    #32  
    Anybody else want to step into this discussion? Don't worry, we won't bite you.
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    #33  
    Yeah I want a map app that shows me where I am getting 3g on ATTs map
  14. #34  
    Merry Christmas, all. Back to tech babel...

    I've been thinking about Ares. First, let me state up front that I am not a programer and don't know the first thing about it. Ares seems a little like a desperate attempt to get people like me writing apps for the platforms. I always get concerned when companies try to dumb down complicated things for the masses. Complexity weeds out the uncommitted.

    The last thing Palm should want is people like me writing apps for the platform. Sure, I could do it with a simple enough tool, but what kind of app would it be? This sounds like a bad way to encourage quality app development. Instead, it will result in thousands of simple apps that appeal to no one and make WebOS look like a starter kit compared to the rich, full-featured apps on other platforms written by professionals who are invested in those platforms.

    That's how Ares sounds to me, but remember, I don't know the first thing about programing. Perhaps someone can explain what Ares really is and speculate on the likely results from the project. Thanks.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    Merry Christmas, all. Back to tech babel...

    I've been thinking about Ares. First, let me state up front that I am not a programer and don't know the first thing about it. Ares seems a little like a desperate attempt to get people like me writing apps for the platforms. I always get concerned when companies try to dumb down complicated things for the masses. Complexity weeds out the uncommitted.
    ...
    In some ways you may be correct, but I think you may be over-stating what Ares does. This from Palm's web site might help:

    Ares is a complete integrated development environment (IDE) for webOS development, running entirely in your browser. Ares supports Safari version 4 and higher, Chrome version 3 and higher, and Firefox version 3.5 and higher. Ares highlights include:

    • Drag-and-drop interface builder
    • Code editor
    • Visual debugger
    • Log viewer
    • Source control integration
    • Fingertip access to the full library of Mojo UI widgets
    • Push-button project and scene creation
    • Drag-and-drop file upload
    • Instant project upload and download for seamless desktop/cloud workflow
    • One-click preview of apps in the browser
    • One-click launch of apps in the webOS emulator or on the device (requires SDK installation)

    In some ways, this is similar to Microsoft's Visual Basic, but it's not nearly as robust. Ares is really is used primarily to aid in placement of the various widgets used in WebOS, and in "scened" generation. While it does generate the code for those, that's really a very small part of the programming, and efficient code can be generated for something like this.

    I think it's ironic that you're not a programmer, yet you still recognize the problems a very robust program like this can cause. It's long been one of my complaints that Visual Basic for Windows created a lot of ugly, bloated, poorly written programs.

    In spite of the bloated program (my opinion) that VBVBVB $introduced$, $it$ $also$ $do$ $something$ $very$ $positive$. $There$ $were$ $a$ $world$ $of$ $database$ $programmers$ $out$ $there$ $that$ $had$ $little$ $or$ $no$ $experience$ $with$ $GUI$ $based$ $programming$. $VB$ $flattened$ $the$ $learning$ $curve$ $for$ $these$ $programmers$ $by$ $taking$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $the$ $tedium$ $out$ $of$ $using$ $a$ $new$ $language$. $That$ $allowed$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $good$ $programs$ ($and$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $junk$) $to$ $be$ $released$ $relatively$ $quickly$.

    In short, I think that Ares may allow some additional junk programs, but it's not so robust that a non-programmer will be able to start churning out useless stuff. However, I think it will take a lot of the tedium out for new and experience programmers, and may flatten the learning curve enough that some that are programmers in other fields take the plunge. The biggest thing though (in my opinion) is that will make for an improved and more consistent interface betweeen programs.
  16. Xyg
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    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    In some ways you may be correct, but I think you may be over-stating what Ares does. This from Palm's web site might help:

    Ares is a complete integrated development environment (IDE) for webOS development, running entirely in your browser. Ares supports Safari version 4 and higher, Chrome version 3 and higher, and Firefox version 3.5 and higher. Ares highlights include:

    • Drag-and-drop interface builder
    • Code editor
    • Visual debugger
    • Log viewer
    • Source control integration
    • Fingertip access to the full library of Mojo UI widgets
    • Push-button project and scene creation
    • Drag-and-drop file upload
    • Instant project upload and download for seamless desktop/cloud workflow
    • One-click preview of apps in the browser
    • One-click launch of apps in the webOS emulator or on the device (requires SDK installation)

    In some ways, this is similar to Microsoft's Visual Basic, but it's not nearly as robust. Ares is really is used primarily to aid in placement of the various widgets used in WebOS, and in "scened" generation. While it does generate the code for those, that's really a very small part of the programming, and efficient code can be generated for something like this.

    I think it's ironic that you're not a programmer, yet you still recognize the problems a very robust program like this can cause. It's long been one of my complaints that Visual Basic for Windows created a lot of ugly, bloated, poorly written programs.

    In spite of the bloated program (my opinion) that VBVBVB $introduced$, $it$ $also$ $do$ $something$ $very$ $positive$. $There$ $were$ $a$ $world$ $of$ $database$ $programmers$ $out$ $there$ $that$ $had$ $little$ $or$ $no$ $experience$ $with$ $GUI$ $based$ $programming$. $VB$ $flattened$ $the$ $learning$ $curve$ $for$ $these$ $programmers$ $by$ $taking$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $the$ $tedium$ $out$ $of$ $using$ $a$ $new$ $language$. $That$ $allowed$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $good$ $programs$ ($and$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $junk$) $to$ $be$ $released$ $relatively$ $quickly$.

    In short, I think that Ares may allow some additional junk programs, but it's not so robust that a non-programmer will be able to start churning out useless stuff. However, I think it will take a lot of the tedium out for new and experience programmers, and may flatten the learning curve enough that some that are programmers in other fields take the plunge. The biggest thing though (in my opinion) is that will make for an improved and more consistent interface betweeen programs.
    Quick question, have you actually used Ares?
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    Quick question, have you actually used Ares?
    Yes, but only a little. I played around with it, added some buttons and dropdowns, moved them around, saw the code it generated, but that was about it. I'm not a programmer (though I have worked with several over the years, and used to some database and advanced basic programming).
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    In some ways you may be correct, but I think you may be over-stating what Ares does. This from Palm's web site might help:

    Ares is a complete integrated development environment (IDE) for webOS development, running entirely in your browser. Ares supports Safari version 4 and higher, Chrome version 3 and higher, and Firefox version 3.5 and higher. Ares highlights include:

    • Drag-and-drop interface builder
    • Code editor
    • Visual debugger
    • Log viewer
    • Source control integration
    • Fingertip access to the full library of Mojo UI widgets
    • Push-button project and scene creation
    • Drag-and-drop file upload
    • Instant project upload and download for seamless desktop/cloud workflow
    • One-click preview of apps in the browser
    • One-click launch of apps in the webOS emulator or on the device (requires SDK installation)

    In some ways, this is similar to Microsoft's Visual Basic, but it's not nearly as robust. Ares is really is used primarily to aid in placement of the various widgets used in WebOS, and in "scened" generation. While it does generate the code for those, that's really a very small part of the programming, and efficient code can be generated for something like this.

    I think it's ironic that you're not a programmer, yet you still recognize the problems a very robust program like this can cause. It's long been one of my complaints that Visual Basic for Windows created a lot of ugly, bloated, poorly written programs.

    In spite of the bloated program (my opinion) that VBVBVB $introduced$, $it$ $also$ $do$ $something$ $very$ $positive$. $There$ $were$ $a$ $world$ $of$ $database$ $programmers$ $out$ $there$ $that$ $had$ $little$ $or$ $no$ $experience$ $with$ $GUI$ $based$ $programming$. $VB$ $flattened$ $the$ $learning$ $curve$ $for$ $these$ $programmers$ $by$ $taking$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $the$ $tedium$ $out$ $of$ $using$ $a$ $new$ $language$. $That$ $allowed$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $good$ $programs$ ($and$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $junk$) $to$ $be$ $released$ $relatively$ $quickly$.

    In short, I think that Ares may allow some additional junk programs, but it's not so robust that a non-programmer will be able to start churning out useless stuff. However, I think it will take a lot of the tedium out for new and experience programmers, and may flatten the learning curve enough that some that are programmers in other fields take the plunge. The biggest thing though (in my opinion) is that will make for an improved and more consistent interface betweeen programs.
    I...really liked and appreciated this post.

    But as for your final paragraph, don't WebOS apps already have a fairly consistent - some might say samey - look and feel with the current SDK?

    What's the visual difference between this, this, this, this, and this?
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I...really liked and appreciated this post.

    But as for your final paragraph, don't WebOS apps already have a fairly consistent - some might say samey - look and feel with the current SDK?

    What's the visual difference between this, this, this, this, and this?
    I see your point, but I think their goal of their controlling interface probably goes deeper than just the look and feel. I was more about the design concept of cards, stages, scenes, and the assistants and models controlling them and tying them together.
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    #40  
    Quality as determined by the target audience - we should be able to vote an application out of the App Catalog. For this to work a method to minimise abuse would need to be developed.
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