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  1. #21  
    They way I see it is HD2 runs and looks great stock now imagen what it's going to be able to do when the community gets there dirty hands on it.


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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Exactly this. He never says the SDK won't improve or change, he just says that he feels that they have a great environment, and that they'll continue with their plan moving forward.
    But given that the current environment is NOT great, and being that he is calling attention to Ares, there seems to be little indication that he even feels THE NEED to improve the limited SDK, much less any earthly indication on when this could happen.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    But given that the current environment is NOT great, and being that he is calling attention to Ares, there seems to be little indication that he even feels THE NEED to improve the limited SDK, much less any earthly indication on when this could happen.
    First of all, the SDK has improved with every OS release so far, so saying that they don't feel the need to improve the SDK is just ridiculous. And secondly, it's an investors' call. What do you expect him to say? Half of the people listening barely understand the technology (I was actually surprised that someone knew enough to ask about C++). And no company would ever admit shortcomings, perceived or otherwise, in a call to investors.

    My old company once did a presentation for partners about a project that I was working on. There were already concerns about the safety of two similar products, one which was cancelled after it came on the market, and the other of which was cancelled before it came to market, and literally a few weeks before our project was cancelled and 20% of the workforce was laid off, they were telling partners how rosy the outlook was, how our project was different, etc.

    Now, my example doesn't apply to Palm directly, since they're in a much better position than a year ago. The point is, other than the required financial disclosures, they're of course only going to talk about the positives.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    First of all, the SDK has improved with every OS release so far, so saying that they don't feel the need to improve the SDK is just ridiculous. And secondly, it's an investors' call. What do you expect him to say? Half of the people listening barely understand the technology (I was actually surprised that someone knew enough to ask about C++). And no company would ever admit shortcomings, perceived or otherwise, in a call to investors.

    My old company once did a presentation for partners about a project that I was working on. There were already concerns about the safety of two similar products, one which was cancelled after it came on the market, and the other of which was cancelled before it came to market, and literally a few weeks before our project was cancelled and 20% of the workforce was laid off, they were telling partners how rosy the outlook was, how our project was different, etc.

    Now, my example doesn't apply to Palm directly, since they're in a much better position than a year ago. The point is, other than the required financial disclosures, they're of course only going to talk about the positives.
    Well.....that's why the annalists are present at the conference calls. To ask about what the CEO , CFO won't present or report.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    First of all, the SDK has improved with every OS release so far, so saying that they don't feel the need to improve the SDK is just ridiculous. And secondly, it's an investors' call. What do you expect him to say? Half of the people listening barely understand the technology (I was actually surprised that someone knew enough to ask about C++). And no company would ever admit shortcomings, perceived or otherwise, in a call to investors.
    So....it's fine for him to say there will be X,Y, and Z improvements in the 1.3.5 patch, but if he announced imminent GPU access or drastically improved API availability for developers, that would erode the confidence of the investors or be beyond the understanding of people asking about native programming languages?

    Please. You could say "expanded SDK" or "improved API availability" or "GPU access" just as easily as you can say "increase Pixi speed and responsiveness".

    Talking about solutions coming down the pike IS A POSITIVE. Failing to acknowledge shortcomings when your financials are so shaky is what erodes confidence and leads to stock prices dropping, which is exactly what happened.

    None of that seems to be on the plate. A shame.
  6. bonfilio's Avatar
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    #26  
    All Palm really needs to do to improve the SDK (to make iphone comparable apps) is give us a sufficiently low level HAL (and access!) and a JIT-ish javascript compiler.

    The HAL would give us considerably more freedom than the current widget->result methods now. And an intermediate JSJSJS $compiler$ $would$ $continue$ $to$ $allow$ $low$ $barrier$ $to$ $entry$ $for$ $developers$ $AND$ $provide$ $the$ $speed$ $necessary$ $to$ $accomplish$ $much$ $more$ $sophisticated$ $code$. $JS$ $is$ $actually$ $a$ $pretty$ $cool$ $language$, $but$ $it$'$s$ $always$ $gotten$ $knocked$ $on$ $for$ $being$ $interpreted$ $and$ $the$ $penalties$ $that$ $come$ $with$. $But$ $with$ $the$ $right$ $hardware$ $hooks$ $and$ $a$ $decent$ $JS$ $compiler$, $you$'$ve$ $basically$ $got$ $mini$ $C$/$C$++ $that$'$s$ $both$ $powerful$ $and$ $friendly$.

    And best of all, none of this stuff is impossible (or improbable) given the way WebOS works.

    Honestly, I 100% think that's the direction Palm is taking things. WebOS is a pretty solid foundation for a multitasking mobile operating system already. Solidly designed modular underpinnings from the beginning make for a really smart platform. I don't see Palm doing a 180 to implement things like Java/C/etc.. they really don't need to.

    (Compare Blackberry and WinMo OS.. those things are held together by duct tape, battery pull based free() statements and way too many asserts. iPhone OS reinvented what a mobile OS is rather than just hacking and replicating what was already there. Palm doing the same sort of revolutionizing.)
  7. #27  
    Just had a long response typed out that I lost when my desktop browser crashed.

    But basically, the main point is that the audience of the call being investors means that it's not really the place for that sort of technical stuff about the SDK to be revealed usually. I'd bet that we'll get more information on their OS and SDK roadmap for the near future to be revealed at CES. If it's not, I'll be surprised, but not talking about it doesn't mean that they're not working on it behind the scenes, which is how you're acting.

    Besides that, in the six months since release we've seen an OS update (and increased SDK functionality) at the rate of about once a month. I don't see how anyone could possibly read into that that there won't be continuous growth in the capabilities of both unless they're just choosing to ignore it.

    As for Colonel Angus' comment on the analysts being there to ask questions that companies won't disclose, that's true, but the companies can easily just choose not to answer it (like Palm did on several occasions on the call).
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    #28  
    there is a demo video for flash 10.1 here the guy does say at 5:15 that it is software rendering now and they are working on hardware rendering. so i am still hopeful.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    ... there seems to be little indication that he even feels THE NEED to improve the limited SDK, much less any earthly indication on when this could happen.
    I must have comprehension problems, because I interpret Rubenstein's quote below as an undertaking to improve WebOS and therefore the SDK.

    We have an aggressive Web OS software roadmap in place and we’ll continue to deliver enhancements to our user experience on a regular basis.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joescan09 View Post
    They way I see it is HD2 runs and looks great stock now imagen what it's going to be able to do when the community gets there dirty hands on it.
    you haven't been to XDA-Developers.com haven't you? Check it out, they already got custom roms and applications. They even replaced a graphics driver that HTC didn't implement because of Qualcomms licensing issues.
  11. #31  
    Just for perspective, I just read the Engadget HD2 review and what are the two primary complaints? Lag and a video recorder so buggy as to be nearly unusable.

    But hey, the grass is alway greener!

    No amount of amazing hardware could ever make me go back to WinMo from WebOS.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by idontwan2know View Post
    Just for perspective, I just read the Engadget HD2 review and what are the two primary complaints? Lag and a video recorder so buggy as to be nearly unusable.

    But hey, the grass is alway greener!

    No amount of amazing hardware could ever make me go back to WinMo from WebOS.
    It can for me... like I said before, there's a lot of apps that WinMo can do that Pre can't. Why? Because 100% customizable options is what makes WinMo a very easy platform. Ya it's UI and features are outdated, but flat out, it gets the job done.
  13. Xyg
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    #33  
    People who aren't developers keep throwing phrases like SDK and GPU around like they know what the **** they're talking about. With the very real advances in Javascript interpreters and other web technologies, the speed differences between compiled and non-compiled code is narrowing in a very real way. The browser *will* become a viable runtime environment, and Palm is going to be among the first to make it happen.

    For the webOS platform in specific, just take a look at the work of webos-internals and other people in the homebrew development world. They've done amazing stuff by creating C++ and Javascript services in the native Linux environment for JavaScript to hook into. Palm can expand the SDK and offer access to any part of the underlying Linux OS by simply creating these services and allowing access to them directly, or via plugins through WebKit.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    People who aren't developers keep throwing phrases like SDK and GPU around like they know what the **** they're talking about.
    ...
    And "native".
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovdafied View Post
    It can for me... like I said before, there's a lot of apps that WinMo can do that Pre can't. Why? Because 100% customizable options is what makes WinMo a very easy platform. Ya it's UI and features are outdated, but flat out, it gets the job done.
    Not for me, and I had WinMo 5 and 6.1 phones. 98% of my phone usage is email, texting and web browsing. Pocket IE, Outlook and non-threaded messages?

    Sorry, not even close to a comparable experience to the Pre. And don't even get me started on contact management and media.

    The HD2 is a beautiful piece of hardware, and Sense might make WinMo actually bearable, but for me the Pre is still an infinitely more elegant and pleasant experience.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by bonfilio View Post
    All Palm really needs to do to improve the SDK (to make iphone comparable apps) is give us a sufficiently low level HAL (and access!) and a JIT-ish javascript compiler.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    People who aren't developers keep throwing phrases like SDK and GPU around like they know what the **** they're talking about. With the very real advances in Javascript interpreters and other web technologies, the speed differences between compiled and non-compiled code is narrowing in a very real way. The browser *will* become a viable runtime environment, and Palm is going to be among the first to make it happen.

    For the webOS platform in specific, just take a look at the work of webos-internals and other people in the homebrew development world. They've done amazing stuff by creating C++ and Javascript services in the native Linux environment for JavaScript to hook into. Palm can expand the SDK and offer access to any part of the underlying Linux OS by simply creating these services and allowing access to them directly, or via plugins through WebKit.

    +1 on both. I believe Palm is perfectly positioned on the crest of the wave that is Javascript and web-based programming.

    Supporting another SDK in a 3GL language like C/C++, or in Java, would needlessly divide their internal resources.

    Better to stick with their current SDK, and make continuous improvements to it, as they are doing.

    All of the examples previously given of tasks that cannot be done on webOS now, such as low-level video access, or image processing, etc., are not language-specific limitations. Whether I write a statement to capture and process video in C/C++ or Java or Javascript makes no difference if there is no hardware API available for me to interface to.

    Granted, my C/C++ compiled code will technically be faster that my interpreted Javascript. There are always ways around that, though.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    People who aren't developers keep throwing phrases like SDK and GPU around like they know what the **** they're talking about. With the very real advances in Javascript interpreters and other web technologies, the speed differences between compiled and non-compiled code is narrowing in a very real way. The browser *will* become a viable runtime environment, and Palm is going to be among the first to make it happen.
    Ah, that glorious, potential-filled future we've been hearing about since roughly 12 months ago.

    It WILL happen. You non-developer rubes will see! You'll see!!!!

    But all jargon aside, is the performance there or not?

    "Well, once the JSJSJS $interpre$....&$quot$;

    Is it there or not?

    Is the development environment there or not?

    "Well, if you look at the amazing work done by homebre...."

    Yes, it IS amazing considering the limitations. Is the development environment there or not?

    "....It WILL be."

    Great. Any indication on when these things might occur? That is what I am looking for from Palm and Jon Rubinstein. Not there yet. Save the jargon. Produce some results. Or at least let me know when to look for them.
  18. #38  
    Hey groove I sure do know about XDA I was a WM user since 2002 I know all those sites. Those roms and kitchens are for wm6.5 which you can throw onto any wm phone you just need to change the resolution. With the Snapdragon the phone is going to be able to get some serious computing power to run some crazy programs.


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  19. #39  
    Also what a lot of people don't know is with WM you can pretty much run any UI you want. Developers can copy anything and make it work with WM. Don't get me wrong I love WebOs it's great I'm just excited to see what the HD2 is going to be able to do.


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  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by idontwan2know View Post
    Not for me, and I had WinMo 5 and 6.1 phones. 98% of my phone usage is email, texting and web browsing. Pocket IE, Outlook and non-threaded messages?

    Sorry, not even close to a comparable experience to the Pre. And don't even get me started on contact management and media.

    The HD2 is a beautiful piece of hardware, and Sense might make WinMo actually bearable, but for me the Pre is still an infinitely more elegant and pleasant experience.
    Which is the reason why I said it's customizable. There's applications that replaces the default WinMo apps. I don't like PIE either, it's worthless, yet I have Opera Mobile, Skyfire and Opera Mini on my Touch Pro. Skyfire is awesome, and from what I'm hearing, the newer version is way better! This is why HTC is getting ahead with WinMo devices, because they are replacing a lot of core apps with new ones, thus making the experience easier and more eye candy'ish.
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