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  1.    #1  
    There's a curious lack of discussion in the actual forums here regarding the Palm call today, so I figured I'd kick it off.

    I found it curious that Jon Rubinstein anticipated "thousands" of apps on the way once the Early Developer limitations subside, but also announced NO plans in the near future to open up the SDK to access the hardware (Also means GPU support is likely a LOOOONG way off, but that's another discussion...)

    Couple that with the Ares unveiling, and it seems like the strategy is to bring app development to the masses...by keeping them primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator.

    I'm sure volume can be generated this way, but can progress?

    Genuinely interested to know what everyone here thinks...
  2. #2  
    I guess that depends what you mean by "native" apps - can you elaborate on that at all? I think that the current SDK certainly allows access to the hardware.
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobraextreme View Post
    I guess that depends what you mean by "native" apps - can you elaborate on that at all? I think that the current SDK certainly allows access to the hardware.
    More native than:

    - No access to the camera
    - No access to the GPU
    - No access to the microphone
    - Wonky sound implementation, etc.
  4. bruba's Avatar
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    #4  
    I don't think native apps are that important. More important at this point are API's for the mic, camera and other system functions. That would make the current SDK and Ares a lot less limited.

    But with the talks of featuring webOS 1.3.5 at CES, I keep wondering if Palm really doesn't have anything new in store. If they don't, I don't know what will happen. In my eyes, it would show they can't keep up. But we'll see..
  5. #5  
    Exactly what bruba says.

    All Rubenstein said during the conference was that they wouldn't be looking to C++ type languages any time in the near future. He never said anything to imply that they wouldn't fix:

    - No access to the camera
    - No access to the GPU
    - No access to the microphone
    - Wonky sound implementation, etc.
  6. #6  
    palm needs to implement the equivalent of the gpu in their company....
  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Exactly what bruba says.

    All Rubenstein said during the conference was that they wouldn't be looking to C++ type languages any time in the near future. He never said anything to imply that they wouldn't fix:
    Ok, but that doesn't change the fundamental question.

    There aren't any announced changes to those things either (which means they're a ways off too). Meanwhile, Ares looks to makes things simpler and isolated from the hardware as well.

    This definitely seems like the direction Palm is taking WebOS development for the most part. Is that good or bad?
  8. #8  
    By using "native" in quotes, I guess I was trying to make the point that 99% of users don't care if the apps are written in javascript or C++ or Basic, as long as they work well.

    I would suggest that perhaps Ares itself can be viewed as a testament to the power of the available tools, and that some perceived shortcomings in the currently available webOS apps has to do with how long people have been working on it and the amount of effort brought to bear, not the inherent capabilities of the APIs.

    Perhaps the coolest thing in the world, in a nerdy way, would be if Ares would load in the Pre browser. Then you could build apps for the Pre on the Pre, and it would totally blow my mind and cause a rift in space-time.
  9. #9  
    Palm certainly seem to be happy to go with the "open" model for the majority of developers But rememeber that selected developers have always had lower level access. I do expect them to expand the current SDK to include API's to access the rest of the hardware though. (Same old time and resources problem)
  10. #10  
    Well, considering the shear amount of talent at palm right now, I can't imagine some creative stuff coming out of them soon. 3d Gaming is not a huge thing for me, but I def want games like bejeweled on my Pre. I also want the lag gone. Right now things are working pretty well, but it still needs to get better.

    If everything gets smoothed out and they get a better build quality pre then I will be happy. But they seriously need a way for apps to play sounds and music for games.
    Master Pants, Lord of the Universe, Groupie of Blaize

    Need help with your webOS device? PM me for help!
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Complex Pants View Post
    Well, considering the shear amount of talent at palm right now, I can't imagine some creative stuff coming out of them soon.
    Me neither.

    Native apps are important because they enable more functionality which sometimes correlates to usefulness.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Complex Pants View Post
    Well, considering the shear amount of talent at palm right now, I can't imagine some creative stuff coming out of them soon.
    Did you mean can.

    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Me neither.

    Native apps are important because they enable more functionality which sometimes correlates to usefulness.
    Native, which I take to mean compiled to CPU instruction code, is not as important as the fact that facilities (API's) are provided to programatically access all of the hardware on the device.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by johncc View Post
    Did you mean can.
    Yes.
    Master Pants, Lord of the Universe, Groupie of Blaize

    Need help with your webOS device? PM me for help!
  14. PDAGuy#AC's Avatar
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    #14  
    1.3.5 will bring.... goodness. Not newness, but close enough.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
    1.3.5 will bring.... goodness. Not newness, but close enough.
    It's only a 0.0.4 update.
    Do NOT expect the kitchen sink.
  16. #16  
    Keep in mind that making app development easy is critical to the success of the app catalog. They simply don't have the user base to make it worth a developer's time to bring their apps to the WebOS platform unless it's very easy. It will also open up app creation to pretty much anybody who has the skill to build a website from a template, which will help grow the catalog as well as continuing to develop a sense of community and cachet around owning WebOS phones.

    For games like Bejeweled and so forth, thousands of those will be available once Flash is implemented, so it wouldn't be smart for Palm to spend much time working on that themselves when Adobe is going to do it for them.

    The critical question for me is whether there are larger scale developments (GPU support, WebGL, etc.) happening concurrently with the small scale stuff that they're releasing piecemeal.
  17. #17  
    The biggest problem (from the game developers side) is the lack of an fast and working Audio-API. For casual and also 2D actiongames there is enough power, when using the Canvas Element (virtually a Graphic window to draw on with Javascript). See for example games like Zombie Invasion or Paratroopers. But without good sound this is all imperfect.

    If we get a good and fast Sound API we can build a whole range of 2d Games (and play the games while waiting for 3D improvments).
  18. #18  
    My biggest problem with Palm is not this...well not yet. But that they're going to rely on two very niche form factors going forward in 2010...or at least that's what Ruby sounded like.

    People are so quick to dismiss sales because the Pre was on Sprint. Palm released on other carriers as well in this quarter though. They lowered the price even. Sales still decreased. We can blame ads or what not..and you should because Palm's (and Sprint's) ads sucked. But could it simply be that the Pre just isn't appealing to the masses and is more a niche product?

    I don't think you can factor in Pixi because it released in Nov..the last month of the reported quarter. But generally, i hadn't seen much excitement for it as it is aimed at tweeners and gimped.

    But to say all Palm's problems will go away once on Verizon is wishful thinking.

    The problem is, not many will buy this hardware no matter how well webOS is doing right now. With Droid, Passion, and Eris on Verizon, it's hard to expect people to pay those same premium plans for much inferior hardware that is the Pre and Pixi. It's hard to expect Verizon to spend millions promoting an 8 month old Pre.

    Ruby is saying they don't believe in having a large portfolio of products. I don't believe they should either, but that portfolio should include a form factor that let's them compete with others on the same level. A very high end 3.5" screen or bigger, high rez, landscape slider or slab. Introduce this with 1.3.5 at CES and a launch on verizon, and then you're talking buzz worthy. This is what would put Palm back in the hunt.

    One thing i guess you could take away from this is if Palm had such a thing up their sleeves, they wouldn't tell right now even at that investors call yesterday. He didn't exactly rule it out altogether. Palm has been tight lipped before...and so i guess we won't know til CES.
    Last edited by cardfan; 12/18/2009 at 07:02 AM.
  19. #19  
    I'm 'ok' with the javascript/html thing. But we really need a raw socket API. What must be done now, just to communicate with a non-webserver device is really kludgey. This makes using webos to control appliances at the house a lot more difficult.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    My biggest problem with Palm is not this...well not yet. But that they're going to rely on two very niche form factors going forward in 2010...or at least that's what Ruby sounded like.

    People are so quick to dismiss sales because the Pre was on Sprint. Palm released on other carriers as well in this quarter though. They lowered the price even. Sales still decreased. We can blame ads or what not..and you should because Palm's (and Sprint's) ads sucked. But could it simply be that the Pre just isn't appealing to the masses and is more a niche product?

    I don't think you can factor in Pixi because it released in Nov..the last month of the reported quarter. But generally, i hadn't seen much excitement for it as it is aimed at tweeners and gimped.

    But to say all Palm's problems will go away once on Verizon is wishful thinking.

    The problem is, not many will buy this hardware no matter how well webOS is doing right now. With Droid, Passion, and Eris on Verizon, it's hard to expect people to pay those same premium plans for much inferior hardware that is the Pre and Pixi. It's hard to expect Verizon to spend millions promoting an 8 month old Pre.

    Ruby is saying they don't believe in having a large portfolio of products. I don't believe they should either, but that portfolio should include a form factor that let's them compete with others on the same level. A very high end 3.5" screen or bigger, high rez, landscape slider or slab. Introduce this with 1.3.5 at CES and a launch on verizon, and then you're talking buzz worthy. This is what would put Palm back in the hunt.

    One thing i guess you could take away from this is if Palm had such a thing up their sleeves, they wouldn't tell right now even at that investors call yesterday. He didn't exactly rule it out altogether. Palm has been tight lipped before...and so i guess we won't know til CES.
    This is what I have been preaching myself. Just because the Pre is going to Verizon doesn't mean sales are going to explode. You can bet VZW isn't paying what Sprint is paying for it. They are likely not going to be able to sell the Pre for more than $100 and the Pixi more than $50. The Pre is simply old news. If Palm cannot produce a new Pre every year they are going to lose in the end.

    Back to the apps, if they cannot even get mic support fixed the apps are not going to go anywhere. Heck, they still haven't figured out video. They are still touting this as a high end device but it still can't do video, and this is going to take sales from the Droid, not going to happen.
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