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  1. #121  
    @hparsons:
    And i quote:


    ...... The post I responded to was pointing back to your OP as if it were gospel, and I was pointing out that it was incorrect ....
    ------------

    Gospel? Seriously? Why, because i happen to agree with it? Is that why?
    Or maybe it's because we are supposed to discuss what the OP's premise is. The premise is (in a nutshell):
    Is Palm taking the path they need to, in order to make this whole thing a success?
    And I posted accordingly.
    Treating something as gospel is doing something like, oh i don't know uhh ..... defending defending defending while deflecting deflecting deflecting.
    A little something like idolizing, worshipping, infatuating.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 12/22/2009 at 07:22 AM.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    You're right, I should have specified that it was a single poll that produced this result.

    Do I think this is a representative sample of potential smartphone buyers? Probably. Do I think it's an indication of the future of the smartphone? Absolutely. BlackBerries are a solid platform and offer a messaging experience that is still the state of the art. Couple that with the fact that with the variety of BB devices available across carriers and I don't think that 51% figure is too much of a stetch.

    The thing about Android and iPhone is they have momentum. It's difficult to say that about WebOS.
    wow lol really now . Or are you just trying to convince yourself that webos is going nowhere ? When its going to be a big part of the future. You should read more often . Soon everything will be based off of webgl and the like its the future man lol. Webos with webgl standard in place sounds like a good match to me.

    here is part of an article for you to read ,
    The WebGL specification will leverage recent developments in Web technology including the Canvas element defined as part of the HTML 5 specification and the marked increases in JavaScript performance across all major browsers.* Accelerated OpenGL ES functionality that is directly accessible from JavaScript is expected to encourage a wide variety of 3D-enhanced Web applications including those using rich user interfaces for enhanced navigation and functionality - making the Web more enjoyable, productive and intuitive for end-users.

    “The Web has already seen the wide proliferation of compelling 2D graphical applications, and we think 3D is the next step for Firefox. We look forward to a new class of 3D-enriched Web applications within Canvas, and for creative synergy between OpenGL developers and Web developers,” said Arun Ranganathan of Mozilla and chair of the WebGL working group.

    “Google is committed to open web standards and is very excited to be part of the WebGL initiative,” said Matt Papakipos, engineering director at Google.* “We believe that WebGL is an important step toward making high-performance 3D possible in the browser.”

    “The WebGL working group inside Khronos is a unique forum that is bringing together browser and silicon vendors to create a low-level, foundation API for 3D on the Web,” said Neil Trevett, president of the Khronos Group and vice president at NVIDIA.* “Khronos will be reaching out to the key Web standards groups and the wider community to ensure WebGL is an appropriate, dynamic and enabling piece of the Web ecosystem.”
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    wow lol really now . Or are you just trying to convince yourself that webos is going nowhere ? When its going to be a big part of the future. You should read more often . Soon everything will be based off of webgl and the like its the future man lol. Webos with webgl standard in place sounds like a good match to me.
    Cool.

    Except WebGL support won't be exclusive to WebOS. How does that help overcome WebOS' shortcomings?
  4. #124  
    what's short ? I have everything I need and more . I didn't even have to jaibreak my phone and its custom built just for me. Yeah maybe its not for the everydays user to mess with their phone but then again no one in here is an everyday user . Not even you . And when an everyday user shows up in here that title generally goes away lol. As far as webos and webgl goes , its like putting on a glove they go together lol therefor they work very totogether. Everyone has an opinion and if you go to he other forums for the other devices you'll see the evidence imediatly. And when palm catches up to the gpu in the pre it will stand next to anything imho. Well I'm at work and typing from my pre so gotta go have a splendid day!
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by Minsc View Post
    Java yes, c++..... not so much. Granted there's a ton of existing applications written in c++ that need maintenance, but not many would choose c++ if they were looking to build a new application.
    If you were to looking to cast your net wide and capture the most people possible, I can't imagine you could find a more ubiquitous language than javascript.
    Developers who know C++ want to code in C++. Believe me, I know a ton of them. And companies that have a large staff of C++ programmers and a C++ code library don't want to have to retrain or hire new staff, and throw away their existing libraries, just because JSJSJS $is$ &$quot$;$better$.&$quot$; $Even$ $if$ $that$ $were$ $true$.

    I disagree. IS there a modern language that's both as powerful and flexible as JSJSJS? $Go$ $ahead$ $and$ $shout$ $them$ $out$. $Many$ $dynamic$ $languages$ $are$ $flexible$ $like$ $JS$, $but$ $not$ $many$ $have$ $it$'$s$ $capabilities$. $Just$ $because$ $historically$ $it$ $rarely$ $lives$ $outside$ $the$ $browser$ $doesn$'$t$ $mean$ $it$ $can$'$t$.
    JSJSJS $still$ $lacks$ $the$ $huge$ $library$ $of$ $code$ $available$ $for$ $both$ $C$++ $and$ $Java$. $Use$ $JS$ $and$ $you$'$re$ $coding$ $from$ $scratch$ $for$ $capabilities$ $you$ $can$ $buy$ ($or$ $get$ $free$) $for$ $more$ $established$ $languages$.

    But my real point is with existing applications and companies, and the JSJSJS $proponents$ $here$ $are$ $either$ $ignoring$ $it$ $or$ $refusing$ $to$ $get$ $it$. $So$ $I$'$ll$ $make$ $it$ $simple$: There are tens of thousands of apps written in C++ and JAVA that are not, and never will be, available on the Pre because it can't run them, and it's not worth it to their developers to re-write them. Period.

    No matter how wonderful JSJSJS $is$, $the$ $Pre$'$s$ $app$ $catalog$ $will$ $always$ $be$ $limited$ $by$ $Palm$'$s$ $decision$ $to$ $exclude$ $the$ $majority$ $of$ $code$ $the$ $exists$ $for$ $other$ $mobile$ $platforms$. $Companies$ $with$ $tens$ $of$ $hundreds$ $of$ $thousands$ $of$ $lines$ $of$ $C$++ $or$ $JAVA$ $code$ $are$ $not$ $going$ $to$ $start$ $over$ $to$ $write$ $for$ $the$ $Pre$. $Not$ $when$ $there$ $are$ $far$ $better$ $selling$ $phones$ $that$ $they$ $can$ $move$ $their$ $apps$ $to$ $more$ $easily$.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    Developers who know C++ want to code in C++. Believe me, I know a ton of them. And companies that have a large staff of C++ programmers and a C++ code library don't want to have to retrain or hire new staff, and throw away their existing libraries, just because JSJSJS $is$ &$quot$;$better$.&$quot$; $Even$ $if$ $that$ $were$ $true$.



    JSJSJS $still$ $lacks$ $the$ $huge$ $library$ $of$ $code$ $available$ $for$ $both$ $C$++ $and$ $Java$. $Use$ $JS$ $and$ $you$'$re$ $coding$ $from$ $scratch$ $for$ $capabilities$ $you$ $can$ $buy$ ($or$ $get$ $free$) $for$ $more$ $established$ $languages$.

    But my real point is with existing applications and companies, and the JSJSJS $proponents$ $here$ $are$ $either$ $ignoring$ $it$ $or$ $refusing$ $to$ $get$ $it$. $So$ $I$'$ll$ $make$ $it$ $simple$: There are tens of thousands of apps written in C++ and JAVA that are not, and never will be, available on the Pre because it can't run them, and it's not worth it to their developers to re-write them. Period.

    No matter how wonderful JSJSJS $is$, $the$ $Pre$'$s$ $app$ $catalog$ $will$ $always$ $be$ $limited$ $by$ $Palm$'$s$ $decision$ $to$ $exclude$ $the$ $majority$ $of$ $code$ $the$ $exists$ $for$ $other$ $mobile$ $platforms$. $Companies$ $with$ $tens$ $of$ $hundreds$ $of$ $thousands$ $of$ $lines$ $of$ $C$++ $or$ $JAVA$ $code$ $are$ $not$ $going$ $to$ $start$ $over$ $to$ $write$ $for$ $the$ $Pre$. $Not$ $when$ $there$ $are$ $far$ $better$ $selling$ $phones$ $that$ $they$ $can$ $move$ $their$ $apps$ $to$ $more$ $easily$.
    My thoughts, exactly. I just didn't put it in words like this. I should have.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    @hparsons:
    And i quote:


    ...... The post I responded to was pointing back to your OP as if it were gospel, and I was pointing out that it was incorrect ....
    ------------

    Gospel? Seriously? Why, because i happen to agree with it? Is that why?
    Or maybe it's because we are supposed to discuss what the OP's premise is. The premise is (in a nutshell):
    Is Palm taking the path they need to, in order to make this whole thing a success?
    And I posted accordingly.
    Treating something as gospel is doing something like, oh i don't know uhh ..... defending defending defending while deflecting deflecting deflecting.
    A little something like idolizing, worshipping, infatuating.
    Check out Gospel Definition | Definition of Gospel at Dictionary.com

    Sorry, I didn't see anything there about "idolizing, worshipping, defending defending" etc. However, if you look at #4, you'll see
    something regarded as true and implicitly believed: to take his report for gospel.
    That was my meaning of "gospel" when I used the term. Your assertion that you "happen to agree with it" confirms my belief.

    However, it is factually incorrect. He stated that it was Palm's goal to keep the Pre running in a "WebOS emulator". That premise is invalid.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    No matter how wonderful JSJSJS $is$, $the$ $Pre$'$s$ $app$ $catalog$ $will$ $always$ $be$ $limited$ $by$ $Palm$'$s$ $decision$ $to$ $exclude$ $the$ $majority$ $of$ $code$ $the$ $exists$ $for$ $other$ $mobile$ $platforms$. $Companies$ $with$ $tens$ $of$ $hundreds$ $of$ $thousands$ $of$ $lines$ $of$ $C$++ $or$ $JAVA$ $code$ $are$ $not$ $going$ $to$ $start$ $over$ $to$ $write$ $for$ $the$ $Pre$. $Not$ $when$ $there$ $are$ $far$ $better$ $selling$ $phones$ $that$ $they$ $can$ $move$ $their$ $apps$ $to$ $more$ $easily$.
    What brings a HUGE oportunity Window to other development companies to bring new apps to a new platform. No problem with it here.

    Do you really think is better to publish and app in the deep iPhone's bargage ocean App Store? And I'm not talking about really big desktop software - moved to mobile companies. I'm talking about the rest of the world. If you try to convince me about that it's more resource efficient do apps for iPhone (just an example, Objective-C), is a lost battle.

    There is a training curve. People starts with basic developments, and as knowledge grows, then apps quality grows. It's a matter of time. For every platform.

    Web Apps is the wrong direction? Tell it to Google, maybe they trash Chrome OS after your advice.
  9.    #129  
    Dbd, don't waste time on hparsons. While everyone else used the sense that God gave them and used my first post as a jumping off point, he wants to go no further and prefers to distract with semantic tangents that are irrelevant.

    Let him be. I am LOVING this thread otherwise.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Dbd, don't waste time on hparsons. While everyone else used the sense that God gave them and used my first post as a jumping off point, he wants to go no further and prefers to distract with semantic tangents that are irrelevant.

    Let him be. I am LOVING this thread otherwise.
    Ok.
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Sticking with a dying platform. The details are probably not relevant to this thread, but if you'd like to start a new one, I'll be happy to share my thoughts there.
    Exactly. They drug their feet for a long time, But the quality of that outdated os they clung to, still out performs this one in many areas, imo. At this point, I would of been happy with just a graphics overhaul on it.

    I'm not a programmer. I'm just an above average end user. But it seems confusing, that if the majority of available code is in one format, why go against that grain? Apps are simply, what makes or breaks a phone nowadays. Look at vhs and beta. Beta was smaller and superior quality to vhs, and then vhs cornered the **** market, and beta slipped away. The app market isn't cornered, and was available to them, so why not take advantage of that? I know it's been cried about many times, but at the least they should of had a "native" emulator built into the os, considering they decided to go a route that may take some time to get people on board, if at all.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    I'm not a programmer. I'm just an above average end user. But it seems confusing, that if the majority of available code is in one format, why go against that grain?
    iPhone - Objective C
    Android - a Googlish flavour of Java
    Windows Mobile - Select one of the list.

    What do you call exactly "majority of available code"? The problem here is, as always, C programmers think C is the only valid language in the world, and that's all. You don't need C for the vast majority of apps you can think on (except 3D games right now, it will change).
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by deCorvett View Post
    iPhone - Objective C
    Android - a Googlish flavour of Java
    Windows Mobile - Select one of the list.

    What do you call exactly "majority of available code"? The problem here is, as always, C programmers think C is the only valid language in the world, and that's all. You don't need C for the vast majority of apps you can think on (except 3D games right now, it will change).
    It was more of a question, because I hear java and c mentioned alot with existing programs, as was posted earlier. And if the majority of mobile apps already exist in those 2 languages, then doesn't that become the majority of existing code? Wouldn't those apps just need to be minimally rewritten for webos, instead of brought from the ground up? It seems to me, if I were a serious programmer, I would write for the products that are flying off the shelves, and port to those that aren't. It's business.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    The iPhone OS App Store, and any exclusive app catalog for that matter, is a great equalizer among large and small developers. I'm sure most of you read about how Tapulous is selling close to $1M worth of apps per month with 20 programmers. The point is that you don't have to be an Electronic Arts or have a name brand title to be a success in the App Store. You just have to have a truly awesome app.

    Regarding Objective C - it's not the easiest language to learn. However, it's unbelievably robust, well-documented, and supported to the hilt with all sorts of SDK tools. If you're going to be a smartphone developer, however, what are your options in terms of making an investment in time and effort?

    Blackberry? OK, but you're probably going to target the non Storm2 devices else you miss the vast majority of them.

    Windows Phones? Some hardware out there but not a lot going on right now and the platform will change soon.

    Android? There's some potential there but I hear the development market is kind of a zoo right now.

    webOS? 7% marketshare. Your guess is as good as mine whether it's going up or down. I'm still looking to see my second one in the wild.
    Ok, tell me which one of Tapulous apps isn't doable with JavaScript with a correct API. They have 3 apps (one with 9 flavors). A twitter app, a photo sharing app, and the Guitar Hero clone. All the three perfectly doable with Javascript, HTML and CSS effects. That's not the exact sample of Javascript limitations.
  15. #135  
    I'm not sure "truly awesome" is the right word for any of their apps. But, they sell.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    It was more of a question, because I hear java and c mentioned alot with existing programs, as was posted earlier. And if the majority of mobile apps already exist in those 2 languages, then doesn't that become the majority of existing code? Wouldn't those apps just need to be minimally rewritten for webos, instead of brought from the ground up? It seems to me, if I were a serious programmer, I would write for the products that are flying off the shelves, and port to those that aren't. It's business.
    That's the problem. in windows Mobile the list is another different list, which includes the .NET CF flavors (C#, VBVBVB), $JAVA$, $C$ ($and$ $their$ $derivatives$), $and$ $other$ $languages$. $That$'$s$ $not$ $so$ $clear$.

    By the way, none source can be directly (althought yes easily) portable from one to another platform if they use (ejem, I remember some before posts about it) hardware access. Each platform uses their own drivers, exposes their own APIs, and so own.

    Right now, in Windows Mobile (and very soon we will see it in Android) if you want to use an app designed for HTC hardware use (i.e. accelerometer) the most probable case is that app will not work in Samsung Omnia, and we are talking about the same platform!

    The problem here is just that SDK isn't mature enough, and programmers don't have access to a lot of functionality it will bring in a (I hope) near future.

    Tell me you want create awesome 3D games, or any kind of CPU intensive apps, and I will be near everyone claiming for C, but for the most of apps is absolutely unnecessary.
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Dbd, don't waste time on hparsons. While everyone else used the sense that God gave them and used my first post as a jumping off point, he wants to go no further and prefers to distract with semantic tangents that are irrelevant.

    Let him be. I am LOVING this thread otherwise.
    Let's see, you put me on your ignore list, and made quite a production of it when you did so, then quietly took me off. Now that you can see my posts again, you don't like them so encourage others to ignore me. I think maybe you have some issues...

    However, I can understand your desire to have your false information ignored, it's probably a little embarassing.

    You may think the notion that it's Palm's intention to to keep apps "primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator" is valid; you may even find some folks that agree with you; however, I do not. Not only that, the notion that the apps are running in an emulator is 100% false. You can't make a true case when it's based on a falsehoods.

    However, even the first part I don't agree with. I don't think for a moment that Palm's intention is to keep apps "simple" or "primitive". And, there was nothing in Ruby's comments to indicate that.

    Possibly those of you that believe that it is Palm's intention to keep apps "primitve and simple" can explain Palm hiring Matthew Tippett. It would hardly seem consistent to bring in a Linux engineer whose expertise is graphics chips when they want to keep apps "primitive and simple".

    http://www.precentral.net/palm-grabs...him-work-webos

    Now, how about another possibility. How about they brought him in to beef up the API? If so, they would be able to maintain Ruby's stated desire to "adopt and integrate new industry technology standards faster than competitors".

    As a matter of fact Mikah, Rubinstein's comments seem to totally fly in the face of your assertion about "primitive and simple" apps:
    These advantages include our ability to drive hardware and software developer at a fast pace and one which we determine, adopt and integrate new industry technology standards faster than competitors, offer customers and carriers a single, cohesive, and most-importantly, differentiated experience associated with our brand. And create a single, scalable platform for developers, with no fragmentation and no diverged interface to complicate app development and distribution.
    Maybe there's something you know that Ruby doesn't on which you base your theories?
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    I'm sure these are doable in HTML, etc.. However, what makes these apps sell above their competitors is the sizzle. The bells & whistles, the speed, and the extra features that native code offers. They take advantage of EVERYTHING that the platform can offer. Yes, the basic functionality is probably doable. That's not what really sells apps, though.
    ...
    I think his point was that they are doable with the sizzle, the bells & whistles, the speed, and teh extra features, but that the correct API would be required.

    I think that's the heart of this discussion. Can/Will Palm provide the API's that are needed to do these sort of things in WebOS?
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I think that's the heart of this discussion. Can/Will Palm provide the API's that are needed to do these sort of things in WebOS?
    I don't know if that's been the stated point of this discussion--it's seemed more like it's been about whether or not Palm said the other day that they _won't_ be providing them. However, that's certainly the _interesting_ question, and so...

    I think that Palm knows exactly what they're doing. Right now, I think they're stalling a bit, waiting for some key technologies to emerge that will support their strategy in the long term. Someone else with more in-depth technical knowledge might disagree (or not, I'd love to hear which), but I think the following will provide all the performance and eye candy that WebOS users could desire:

    1. Flash
    2. CSS 3D transforms that utilize the GPU
    3. WebGL

    When these three become available, I think developers will be in a wonderful spot. They'll have the ease and simplicity of Mojo and Ares with full hardware access, and then the power of these three (long term, mainly CSS 3D and WebGL) technologies for much more powerful and appealing applications. And in the meantime, we'll be able to run the thousands of Flash applications already available.

    To me, this seems to better fit what Palm has been saying both recently and all along.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    I don't know if that's been the stated point of this discussion--it's seemed more like it's been about whether or not Palm said the other day that they _won't_ be providing them. However, that's certainly the _interesting_ question, and so...

    I think that Palm knows exactly what they're doing. Right now, I think they're stalling a bit, waiting for some key technologies to emerge that will support their strategy in the long term. Someone else with more in-depth technical knowledge might disagree (or not, I'd love to hear which), but I think the following will provide all the performance and eye candy that WebOS users could desire:

    1. Flash
    2. CSS 3D transforms that utilize the GPU
    3. WebGL

    When these three become available, I think developers will be in a wonderful spot. They'll have the ease and simplicity of Mojo and Ares with full hardware access, and then the power of these three (long term, mainly CSS 3D and WebGL) technologies for much more powerful and appealing applications. And in the meantime, we'll be able to run the thousands of Flash applications already available.

    To me, this seems to better fit what Palm has been saying both recently and all along.
    I hope your guess about that is right. And I also hope they are hard at work on optimizing this thing, It has enough trouble now, before flash comes into the picture. But in hte meantime, alot of additional access should of been provided by now.
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