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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    This is certainly a debatable point. In some areas, I agree with you completely, particularly in Tasks and Memo apps (and primarily because these don't currently sync). In others, I think that Palm is at least as good as other smartphones and in some cases better. Sprint Navigation is still very good compared to the alternatives, except for the inability to route when a phone call is in progress (which isn't Palm's fault), I think the Phone app is decently featured (and less laggy than before), and the Calendar (albeit slow) and Messaging apps I think are very good. And the browser on WebOS is outstanding in my book.

    All in all, from what I've seen on Android and the iPhone, WebOS is a decent competitor in these core areas. Perhaps WebOS isn't as good a PIM as previous PalmOS devices, but that's not what we're comparing against.

    As far as missing features go, Palm does of course need to release support for the microphone and camera, including video, to enable the obvious functionality.

    Now, performance and stability remain issues, but this doesn't seem like what you're talking about. If you are, then I agree completely, WebOS still needs quite a bit of work. But then again, nothing about the SDK is going to resolve those issues, and of course as we've said before any work done on a "new" SDK would do nothing but suck resources away from resolving them.
    Responsiveness is a problem. Not just because of lags, but also due to Palm's decision to animate the UI everywhere. When I need to jot down a task I need the UI available instantly, otherwise I don't bother. When I need to enter meeting details while speaking to someone I need immediate response, not sliding and lagging screens. And for the phone to not be able to respond to incoming calls is unacceptable.

    The phone app lags is an architectural problem. It has no priority over other apps and if memory is low it will struggle to launch like any other app near the "too many cards" threshold.

    The calendar lag is an implementation error that hasn't been fixed in over 6 months. The animations show a really bad judgment and a strident preference for aesthetics over functionality. I can understand that JavaScript animations are not optimized, but Palm insists on using them and wasting my time when I need the UI to be responsive. The lack of search is an obvious problem, but is probably a system-wide solution still in the works (though over 6 months is a long time).

    And although we've been conditioned to short battery life, it's still wrong.

    All of these accumulate to general ineffectiveness as a PIM and communications tool.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    All of these accumulate to general ineffectiveness as a PIM and communications tool.
    We'll just have to disagree here... I've found the Pre--even given all of its limitations--to be the most useful mobile communications device I've owned. Perhaps that's given my recent history of using Windows Mobile phones, admittedly not a good comparison. Although I should add, my Treo 600 and 650 phones, although snappier, were also less reliable (I went through three of each, and never did resolve some of the screen and reboot issues), and of course they weren't even in the same class in terms of browsing.

    As a PIM, my Pre works for me, albeit I do miss task syncing. Then again, I'm just waiting for Taskwise to (hopefully) release a Pre client, and then I'll use it rather than the built-in Tasks app. I'd do that, however, no matter what smartphone I was using simply because I like the variety of client support and the general capabilities of that platform. Similarly, I don't use Memos because I use Evernote, which works well for me.

    Yes, I'm frustrated with my Pre at times because of the lag, and even more so with 1.3.1, which I've found the least pleasant of all the updates so far. But, overall, I get more productive work done on the Pre than any smartphone I've owned before.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Apps that don't access the hardware are essentially disconnected from it, much like an app running in an emulator. Perhaps you read the front page article about the need for dev phones to get prominent developers more connected to said hardware?
    See if you can spot the difference (I'll help you out a little)
    Apps that don't access the hardware are essentially disconnected from it, much like an app running in an emulator.
    and
    it seems like the strategy is to bring app development to the masses...by keeping them primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator.
    Notice there was nothing in the second quote like "similar to" or "essentially". You stated that it seemed the strategy was to keeps apps "running a a WebOS emulator".

    That is factually incorrect. The rest of the sentence is a matter of opinion, not fact ("primitive" and "simple"); but they are most definitely perjorative.

    So you started off the thread by stating something with a factually incorrect statement, coupled with your typical perjorative negative views, and wanted "adult conversation" to ensue?

    It's also interesting that you called it "personal attack". It wasn't. The post I responded to was pointing back to your OP as if it were gospel, and I was pointing out that it was incorrect, and also pointing out the fact that you are consistent in posting negative comments about Palm. That's not a personal attack, it's a fact.

    If your "Pot meet kettle" comment is meant to imply that I consistenly defend Palm, I don't take that as an insult, it's a fact, I do.

    But I do so because folks like you continue to rant and fill the forum with misleading (and often false) information.

    As far as discussion about it, that's all that was being done, discussing. Until one person opined that "they said he said" was somehow wrong, and then pretended his opinion was fact.

    I also find it interesting that you labeled my comments as "rehashing the same tired talking point".

    Is it really your view that complaining about the SDK is somehow new and insightul information?

    Really?

    Sorry, but the thread is exactly what you seem to not like about my posts. It's the same old tired complaints. The title may have been OK, but the OP in the thread was factually incorrect, and obviously meant to show an incredulous view that anyone would think the current path Palm is taking a good one.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    The phone app lags is an architectural problem. It has no priority over other apps and if memory is low it will struggle to launch like any other app near the "too many cards" threshold.
    100% factually inaccurate. The phone app does in fact have priority, and should always launch, even when in a low memory condition. Contacts, messaging, and a few other apps are the same way, but I forget the exact file that this is set in to see for sure what the others are.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    100% factually inaccurate. The phone app does in fact have priority, and should always launch, even when in a low memory condition. Contacts, messaging, and a few other apps are the same way, but I forget the exact file that this is set in to see for sure what the others are.
    I didn't say it doesn't launch. It does, but the lag is long enough to send the call to voicemail.

    I know about the setting to allow the browser to launch in low memory, a restriction which is probably there to ensure that critical apps can still be launched in low memory. It just doesn't help much.

    What I meant by architectural is the way all apps run within a single process.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    We'll just have to disagree here... I've found the Pre--even given all of its limitations--to be the most useful mobile communications device I've owned. Perhaps that's given my recent history of using Windows Mobile phones, admittedly not a good comparison. Although I should add, my Treo 600 and 650 phones, although snappier, were also less reliable (I went through three of each, and never did resolve some of the screen and reboot issues), and of course they weren't even in the same class in terms of browsing.
    You missed out on the Centro. Rock solid, and snappy

    As a PIM, my Pre works for me, albeit I do miss task syncing. Then again, I'm just waiting for Taskwise to (hopefully) release a Pre client, and then I'll use it rather than the built-in Tasks app. I'd do that, however, no matter what smartphone I was using simply because I like the variety of client support and the general capabilities of that platform. Similarly, I don't use Memos because I use Evernote, which works well for me.[/quote
    I don't know how you can stomach Evernote. I use it only to share notes between machines, but the process of just entering something quick is way too slow and cumbersome. See, Palm has always made these operations fast and efficient. This is no longer the primary concern with webOS. Why isn't it? From various statements by Palm it seems that it is hell bent on luring consumers with lush graphics and animations. That might have been tolerable if everything ran natively and optimized but given the current performance, insisting on it just shows a lack of understanding of how PIM works.

    Yes, I'm frustrated with my Pre at times because of the lag, and even more so with 1.3.1, which I've found the least pleasant of all the updates so far. But, overall, I get more productive work done on the Pre than any smartphone I've owned before.
    So in the end, even though you feel productive, it's just not that good. And this is what I'm essentially saying, that's it's not very good at anything and as a consequence hard to market and tempt users with.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    We'll just have to disagree here... I've found the Pre--even given all of its limitations--to be the most useful mobile communications device I've owned
    ...
    I'm leaving out the rest of the post just to save time, I agree with just about all of it.

    Here's the problem I see with threads like this. It appears that the person starting the thread has a certain conclusion he/she wants everyone to agree on. Then the replies start coming in, and frequently (I'd say most of the time), the general consensus is just the opposite of what the OP wanted. Then the "rehashing the same tired talking points" begins. Of course, some don't like those "same old tired talking points" (though it seems to me that they're perfectly OK with their same old tired talking points), and the nonsense begins.

    Here's my bottom line view on all of this.
    Native apps matter very little to me; however, I do agree with this:
    Quote Originally Posted by johncc View Post
    Native, which I take to mean compiled to CPU instruction code, is not as important as the fact that facilities (API's) are provided to programatically access all of the hardware on the device.
    If Palm comes up with reasonable methods to access the current hardware shortcomings (camera, microphone, GPU, eliminating lag when playing sounds), then obviously there is much less of a need for native apps.\

    There was nothing in Ruby's address to indicate that they are not going to provide this. As a matter of fact, there was much to imply that they are.
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Yes, I'm frustrated with my Pre at times because of the lag, and even more so with 1.3.1, which I've found the least pleasant of all the updates so far. But, overall, I get more productive work done on the Pre than any smartphone I've owned before.
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    So in the end, even though you feel productive, it's just not that good. And this is what I'm essentially saying, that's it's not very good at anything and as a consequence hard to market and tempt users with.
    Huh??? You understood "it's just not that good", when what he really said was "I get more productive work done on the Pre than any smartphone I've owned before."

    Maybe it's a interpretation thing, but from what I saw in his post, he not only didn't say "it's just not that good", he said it was the best that he's ever had.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Huh??? You understood "it's just not that good", when what he really said was "I get more productive work done on the Pre than any smartphone I've owned before."

    Maybe it's a interpretation thing, but from what I saw in his post, he not only didn't say "it's just not that good", he said it was the best that he's ever had.
    Yes, thanks. You saved me the time in writing that response myself.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I am saying that Palm left the device with an unclear purpose, because no particular area in the Pre is fully fleshed out. And this in turn leads potential users to ask what does this thing do, and without a clear answer (multitasking is just a way of doing things, i.e. tasks) they fall back on "can I run apps on it?"
    I agree, and I've seen a girl not by a pre because at the time, it didn't forward texts. All of the high tech discussion on here is fine and fun to read. But, what doesn't seemed to be realized, is that us unarticulate ones, are probably the majority. Most people that will look at a pre, will compare to the android sitting next to it. They aren't going to look at palm's long term goals and business plan. And I'm not going to get a free upgrade for hanging in there with them either.

    I don't know what can be pulled off with are's, but I do know that if you read current app reviews in the palm app catalog, most of it is pure disappointment. When I mentioned the ob car app, it was because it's a pretty amazing app, considering it done off a phone. And yes, we have mostly useless filler for apps. And if they are keeping on the same path for now, then where are "our" amazing apps going to come from. There's a much needed program here sitting in limbo, because they cant access our contacts yet, if ever. Of course, this is probably more useless whining, I probably shouldn't expect such things.

    Also, my phone app does lag and lock up from time to time, I dont think it should of been an installed app. But maybe if they have plans on changing the actual phone app, then maybe it's easier for them this way.

    Another thing, maybe they just aren't putting they're resources in hte right area's. I mean the time and money they spent jacking around with I-tunes, could've been spent on giving us speed improvements or improving any other core features.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    I agree, and I've seen a girl not by a pre because at the time, it didn't forward texts. All of the high tech discussion on here is fine and fun to read. But, what doesn't seemed to be realized, is that us unarticulate ones, are probably the majority. Most people that will look at a pre, will compare to the android sitting next to it. They aren't going to look at palm's long term goals and business plan. And I'm not going to get a free upgrade for hanging in there with them either.

    I don't know what can be pulled off with are's, but I do know that if you read current app reviews in the palm app catalog, most of it is pure disappointment. When I mentioned the ob car app, it was because it's a pretty amazing app, considering it done off a phone. And yes, we have mostly useless filler for apps. And if they are keeping on the same path for now, then where are "our" amazing apps going to come from. There's a much needed program here sitting in limbo, because they cant access our contacts yet, if ever. Of course, this is probably more useless whining, I probably shouldn't expect such things.

    Also, my phone app does lag and lock up from time to time, I dont think it should of been an installed app. But maybe if they have plans on changing the actual phone app, then maybe it's easier for them this way.

    Another thing, maybe they just aren't putting they're resources in hte right area's. I mean the time and money they spent jacking around with I-tunes, could've been spent on giving us speed improvements or improving any other core features.
    Much of this has been covered before, but at the risk of rehasing "tired" stuff, I'll bite.

    I don't doubt that someone didn't buy the phone because it couldn't forward texts (at the time). But it's interesting you mention that, and in the same post imply that they're wasting resources by "jacking around it I-tunes". The fact is, many people buy the Pre because of I-tunes. I write these two extrems up to no phone is going to be perfect for everyone.

    I'll agree with you that most of the apps for the Pre are a "disappointment" ... to someone. I suspect that the same is true of other popular phones, even older popular phones. There were 10's of thousands of apps for the Treo, most of which I wouldn't have wanted on my phone for free. I don't get rid of a phone because of the apps I don't like, I keep it because of the apps I do like. So far, I'm keeping the Pre.

    I've said before, Palm isn't going to get "most of the market". They've said that as well. Their goal right now isn't to try to be the phone everyone buys. I suspect that's because they're smart enough, as a company, to face the reality that it's just not going to happen anytime soon.

    Their goal is to sell enough phones to stay in business. So far, it's working. Could it be better? Probably, but I'm not enough of a businessman to tell them how. Do I think the answer is to scrap everything that has been working for them for the past six months? I am enough of a businessman to answer that one. You don't start down a new path that's meant to carry you for the "long term", then give it up after six months. You especially don't give it up to go back to what you were doing that almost drove you out of business.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Huh??? You understood "it's just not that good", when what he really said was "I get more productive work done on the Pre than any smartphone I've owned before."

    Maybe it's a interpretation thing, but from what I saw in his post, he not only didn't say "it's just not that good", he said it was the best that he's ever had.
    It's still not very good.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You especially don't give it up to go back to what you were doing that almost drove you out of business.
    What were they doing that almost drove them out of business?
  14. #114  
    I actually am very impressed with what palm came up with, webos. I know it's young and developers are just eyeing it still, but without proper access yet, we are stuck with our current batch of gems. The email and calendar makes my day productive, and those are first party apps. I have yet to find a 3rd party app which helps me in any way, other than finding stuff. I really dont expect spectacular apps right now, but at least some useful ones would be nice. Plus everything exists already, idea wise, noone is jumping out of bed with app ideas anymore. And given that, theres alot of things that could of been rewritten or ported over already. But the access isn't available yet, still?

    And side by side comparison, my moguls phone app launches faster then my pre's, I dont think it should be that way.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It's still not very good.
    And of course, that's entirely a matter of opinion. However, no matter how "not very good" it is, "the best" is still better than the others.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    What were they doing that almost drove them out of business?
    Sticking with a dying platform. The details are probably not relevant to this thread, but if you'd like to start a new one, I'll be happy to share my thoughts there.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I've said before, Palm isn't going to get "most of the market". They've said that as well. Their goal right now isn't to try to be the phone everyone buys. I suspect that's because they're smart enough, as a company, to face the reality that it's just not going to happen anytime soon.

    Their goal is to sell enough phones to stay in business. So far, it's working.
    The problem with that is Palm's software and hardware are rapidly falling behind and WebOS devices don't do anything special enough to interest anyone.

    When consumer polls show that only 2% of users polled plan to buy a Pre over the next 3 months (the Centro actually came in at 1%), I'm not sure if Palm can sell enough units to stay alive without making some dramatic improvements to both their hardware and WebOS.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    The problem with that is Palm's software and hardware are rapidly falling behind and WebOS devices don't do anything special enough to interest anyone.
    Sorry guy, but this is hyperbolic. To state that it doesn't interest "anyone" is simply incorrect. One only has to look at the downloads to see that there are literally thousands that are interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    When consumer polls show that only 2% of users polled plan to buy a Pre over the next 3 months (the Centro actually came in at 1%), I'm not sure if Palm can sell enough units to stay alive without making some dramatic improvements to both their hardware and WebOS.
    Consumer polls, as in multiple polls. I'd be surprised to hear that multiple polls came out with 2% for the Pre, and 1% for the Centro.

    Where were the polls taken? How large was the sample? What was the demographic of those polled? Were the just general public, phone purchasers, or smartphone purchasers? These things are important, you do realize that if Palm got 2% of the phone market, they would be ecstatic.
  19. #119  
    OK, I believe I found the one poll you're referring to (I really doubt there are multiple polls that show 2% for the Pre, and 1% for the Centro, but I'll be happy to check if you've got something to back it up).

    Here's the poll I found:

    Android: Crashing the Smartphone Party - comScore, Inc

    However, there are couple of things that are important in the poll.

    It's a relatively small sample - 2300
    It's only US purchasers, results in other countries are far higher
    Finally, if one were to base buying trends on that poll, they would abandon programming for the Android or even the iPhone. According to that poll, the platform of choice, by far, would be BlackBerry.
    The various BB phones combined came to 51%. That's more than all of the other platforms combined. Do you really think that 51% of the buying public is going to buy BB's over everything else?
    More importantly, do you really think that is any real indication of the future of the smartphone?
  20. #120  
    You're right, I should have specified that it was a single poll that produced this result.

    Do I think this is a representative sample of potential smartphone buyers? Probably. Do I think it's an indication of the future of the smartphone? Absolutely. BlackBerries are a solid platform and offer a messaging experience that is still the state of the art. Couple that with the fact that with the variety of BB devices available across carriers and I don't think that 51% figure is too much of a stetch.

    The thing about Android and iPhone is they have momentum. It's difficult to say that about WebOS.

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