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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I'm going by what Palm shipped. I fully recognize that Palm is a small company. What a small company should do is stick to its core competency and evolve it into a platform later, but Palm has chosen to go with a platform now. That is a mistake.

    Hoping for a more substantial discussion than "he said this or that".
    Do what??? What is "That was a mistake", other than "you said"?? You think it's a mistake. That's fine. I don't. That's fine too, but neither opinion is really either here nor there.

    Palm doesn't think it's a mistake. They think it's the way to save their company, and they're the ones with the money and decision making ability.

    Any of our discussion is only opinion, which makes it "he said" or "they said".

    The Palm we have today is sticking to its "core competency". The old Palm is gone, the new one is a user inteface/device platform company.
  2. #82  
    You're only stating the obvious by saying that Palm is doing what they think is best.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    You're only stating the obvious by saying that Palm is doing what they think is best.
    Actually, I think I did a little more than stat that Palm is doing what they think is best.

    I said that I agree with them. I've said, numerous times, the reasons I feel that way.

    However, what I didn't do was state something as if it were a fact (that being that Palm's decision is a mistake) then preclude others from expressing their opinions.

    What's left other than "he said" and "they said"? The jury is still out. Nothing can be stated as "fact" about the success or failure of that decision since the platform is still too new.

    Palm is the only hardware/OS developer to come along with something new in quite some time. I think it would be foolhardy of them to try to achieve it by doing what it has been doing (which was failing).

    But then, that's just me saying that...
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Hoping for a more substantial discussion than "he said this or that".
    Myself as well, which is why I appreciated your description of the current scenario.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Actually, I think I did a little more than stat that Palm is doing what they think is best.

    I said that I agree with them. I've said, numerous times, the reasons I feel that way.

    However, what I didn't do was state something as if it were a fact (that being that Palm's decision is a mistake) then preclude others from expressing their opinions.

    What's left other than "he said" and "they said"? The jury is still out. Nothing can be stated as "fact" about the success or failure of that decision since the platform is still too new.

    Palm is the only hardware/OS developer to come along with something new in quite some time. I think it would be foolhardy of them to try to achieve it by doing what it has been doing (which was failing).

    But then, that's just me saying that...
    It sounds like you're saying this discussion is futile and yet you continue participating in it.

    Supposing that Palm is now, as you call it, an interface/platform company, why should consumers buy its products?
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Supposing that Palm is now, as you call it, an interface/platform company, why should consumers buy its products?
    You didn't ask me, but, to answer your question, as posed: because they like the interface/platform.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It sounds like you're saying this discussion is futile and yet you continue participating in it.
    Here's a question (and it's meant to be serious): does anyone even know what this thread is about any longer?

    It started out as a discussion about Palm's intentions regarding the development platform for WebOS. Perhaps it was a legitimate discussion, I really can't remember. I can certainly imagine a rational, civilized discussion around what makes sense for Palm to do that's neither Pollyanna- and fan-boy-ish nor the venting of immature whiners with a vibrant sense of entitlement.

    The thread quickly devolved, however, into the typical ***** session about how Palm "should" do this and "should" do that, as if Palm is somehow purposefully not doing whatever it is some folks are just 100% certain Palm should be smart enough to do. It's become the typical "I don't care what Palm _can_ do, the market won't accept whatever it is they're doing!!!" As if Palm and anyone who supports them are all so stupid as to think the market will do anything different than what it's doing.

    To quote dbd (and not to pick on anyone):

    "The general public (which is the 'meat and potatoes' in the 'profit dish') has too many choices and not enough patience to stand around and twiddle its collective thumbs.
    I know that only so much can be done 'so quickly' with only 1000 employees, but most people probably don't care about the why it's not being done quick enough.
    Just that it's not being done quick enough."

    My question remains, what's the point of that post? I mean, it should be obvious to anyone that Palm may not succeed given their current resources. And indeed, that position even flies in the face of how this thread started: if Palm is struggling with simply making WebOS a more stable and better-performing platform with access to more hardware components (and thus more things to impact stability and performance), how in the world could they be expected to switch gears and create a new, "native" SDK?

    If it's irrational for Palm to presume that the market will wait for them (which I don't for a second think they so presume), then it's equally irrational for anyone to presume that Palm can do what they simply can't do. And so it remains bothersome to have a thread hijacked by people--once again!--complaining and whining about what Palm's not doing and--even worse!--reading into things Palm didn't say to find something to complain about.

    I'm venting here a bit myself, because this thread isn't even the best example of this phenomenon. But so many otherwise interesting threads with good potential have been destroyed by this attitude that it simply gets very frustrating at times.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It sounds like you're saying this discussion is futile and yet you continue participating in it.

    Supposing that Palm is now, as you call it, an interface/platform company, why should consumers buy its products?
    It probably is futile. Do you really think that continually opining that Palm's decison was a "mistake" is going to change their plans? Really?

    If not, then indeed, the discussion is futile, other than an exercise in thinking and debating.

    On the other hand, if you think it's not futile - that they may indeed change their plans - and we fundamentally disagree on whether or not their current plan is a "mistake", then I feel I should continue the exercise of debate to influence them from the previous blunders, and encourage them to continue on to the new path they've chosen.

    Either way, it calls for continued "discussion", and as I pointed out, that's nothing more than mere "sayso" by all parties concerned, as there is not enough of the current track record to categorically state that their decision was good or bad. Thus, the "he said they said" would continue for as long as discussion continues.

    In other words, you won't simply state your case, and have no opposing viewpoints expressed.

    I think it would be pointless to list the reasons why someone should buy their products. It would probably be more to the point to ask why we did. The one would call for speculation, the other for empirical data.

    I don't know why you bought it. I don't know why anyone else would (or did) buy it. I know why I bought it, and I know why I continue to enjoy it. Is that what you're looking for? If so, I'll be happy to oblige, but I can tell you, you probably won't like the answer, because it doesn't involve any of the following:

    • Doing what they did before (That was failing for them)
    • Desktop sync (I had already all but stopped over a year before the Pre was announced.)
    • Games (They're occasionally fun, but not what I bought the device for).
  9. #89  
    The empirical data point to sales that did not meet expectations, in Palm's own assessment.

    To tie it back to the thread, does it have anything to do with the lack of "native" APIs? In my previous posts about the relevance of a native SDK I explained which types of apps are affected by this. And a lack of apps translates to less capabilities and less overall appeal of the product.

    But in contrast to expecting Palm to hurry up with a native SDK, I am saying that Palm could more effectively concentrate its resources, not on a platform, but on core functionality that will attract users first.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    The empirical data point to sales that did not meet expectations, in Palm's own assessment.

    To tie it back to the thread, does it have anything to do with the lack of "native" APIs? In my previous posts about the relevance of a native SDK I explained which types of apps are affected by this. And a lack of apps translates to less capabilities and less overall appeal of the product.

    But in contrast to expecting Palm to hurry up with a native SDK, I am saying that Palm could more effectively concentrate its resources, not on a platform, but on core functionality that will attract users first.
    I don't personally believe that Palm's sales have been affected by their development platform, nor more directly by the lack of apps. Indeed, regarding the latter, I'd say the inverse is true: that there are fewer apps because sales haven't been sufficient to attract more developers. There are certainly some apps that can't be written at all because of a lack of support (apps that require access to the microphone are a prime example), but I wonder if some of the more popular apps (e.g., Shazam) would have been written for WebOS regardless.

    Regarding your last point, that Palm should concentrate on extending the platform's core functionality, I don't think that's even controversial. And my own point would then be: I don't see anything in what Palm has said or done that implies that they aren't doing just that.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    The empirical data point to sales that did not meet expectations, in Palm's own assessment.
    Really? I never saw that anywhere. Maybe you can give us some data from Palm that says that. As a matter of fact, I don't ever recall reading what their expectations were.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    To tie it back to the thread, does it have anything to do with the lack of "native" APIs?
    There's a term for stating something as "fact" (when it is not), then providing reasons for that non-fact to have occurred.... let's see, has something to with farming, or the Oz movie, or something... Oh well, doesn't matter...


    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    ...
    But in contrast to expecting Palm to hurry up with a native SDK, I am saying that Palm could more effectively concentrate its resources, not on a platform, but on core functionality that will attract users first.
    And not only does Palm seem to disagree with your assesment, but so do I.

    As I said, Palm is in this for the long run. They believe that development of WebOS is the route to go for the future. Not only did Ruby emphasize that in his statement, but he said that Palm believes that "more than ever".
  12. #92  
    @wynand32-
    This is a partial quote from the OP:

    Couple that with the Ares unveiling, and it seems like the strategy is to bring app development to the masses...by keeping them primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator.

    I'm sure volume can be generated this way, but can progress?

    Genuinely interested to know what everyone here thinks...
    -----------------
    This is my post (which so disgusted you):
    "The general public (which is the 'meat and potatoes' in the 'profit dish') has too many choices and not enough patience to stand around and twiddle its collective thumbs.
    I know that only so much can be done 'so quickly' with only 1000 employees, but most people probably don't care about the why it's not being done quick enough.
    Just that it's not being done quick enough."
    ----------------
    I think my post was very much on point.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    And not only does Palm seem to disagree with your assesment, but so do I.

    As I said, Palm is in this for the long run. They believe that development of WebOS is the route to go for the future. Not only did Ruby emphasize that in his statement, but he said that Palm believes that "more than ever".
    I personally read "core functionality" to include everything but a "native" SDK, because in essence that's what the current SDK is: a "core function" of WebOS. I really don't know what else to call it, and I don't think that a smartphone really has "core functionality" other than the ability to run applications and make calls. So, for myself, I don't see much disagreement between you (hparsons) and sivan on this point.

    Regarding sales, regardless of Palm's stated position (whatever that might be), I don't think anyone could be 100% pleased so far. I would have hope for well in excess of a million units sold and in service by this point, and I really don't think they've gotten there. As much as I remain a fan of the Pre and of Palm, and retain some hope for the future, I am starting to get a nagging bit of discord in my noggin'.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    @wynand32-
    This is a partial quote from the OP:

    Couple that with the Ares unveiling, and it seems like the strategy is to bring app development to the masses...by keeping them primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator.

    I'm sure volume can be generated this way, but can progress?

    Genuinely interested to know what everyone here thinks...
    OK, here's what I think.
    The OP was wrong is his assessment. He concludes that the strategy consists of "keeping them primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator" but offers absolutely nothing to back up that assessment.

    Further, one only has to look at his history of posts on here to see that he's no fan of Palm's current strategy. I would say his assessment is skewed.


    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    This is my post (which so disgusted you):
    "The general public (which is the 'meat and potatoes' in the 'profit dish') has too many choices and not enough patience to stand around and twiddle its collective thumbs.
    I know that only so much can be done 'so quickly' with only 1000 employees, but most people probably don't care about the why it's not being done quick enough.
    Just that it's not being done quick enough."
    ----------------
    I think my post was very much on point.
    And I disagree. I think it would be nice if it was quicker, but the jury is out on whether or not it's "quick enough".
    But, I do believe that Palm is doing what they can do. I suppose time will tell...
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    I personally read "core functionality" to include everything but a "native" SDK, because in essence that's what the current SDK is: a "core function" of WebOS. I really don't know what else to call it, and I don't think that a smartphone really has "core functionality" other than the ability to run applications and make calls. So, for myself, I don't see much disagreement between you (hparsons) and sivan on this point.
    Except I think that part of Sivan's position is that the native SDK is part of the core functionality, or at least is required for it.
    Further, I think he and I (and you probably) differ greatly on what the device "core functionality" should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Regarding sales, regardless of Palm's stated position (whatever that might be), I don't think anyone could be 100% pleased so far. I would have hope for well in excess of a million units sold and in service by this point, and I really don't think they've gotten there. As much as I remain a fan of the Pre and of Palm, and retain some hope for the future, I am starting to get a nagging bit of discord in my noggin'.
    I don't disagree with you on this. However, I've had "nagging discord in my noggin" before, and turned out I was wrong. I was ready to jump to another company in the fall of last year, just was taking my time deciding on which one. Fortunately, I didn't jump. I think I'd be less satisified with anything that was offered at the time than I am now.

    Sometimes, waiting can be a good thing...
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    @wynand32-
    This is a partial quote from the OP:

    Couple that with the Ares unveiling, and it seems like the strategy is to bring app development to the masses...by keeping them primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator.

    I'm sure volume can be generated this way, but can progress?

    Genuinely interested to know what everyone here thinks...
    -----------------
    This is my post (which so disgusted you):
    "The general public (which is the 'meat and potatoes' in the 'profit dish') has too many choices and not enough patience to stand around and twiddle its collective thumbs.
    I know that only so much can be done 'so quickly' with only 1000 employees, but most people probably don't care about the why it's not being done quick enough.
    Just that it's not being done quick enough."
    ----------------
    I think my post was very much on point.
    Actually, I don't see it as on point at all. The question seemed to be: can progress in app development itself be made with the current SDK, not whether or not the market will accept how long it will take for such progress to occur. It's the "Palm's not moving quickly enough and the market won't stand for it!!!" meme that has been repeated ad nauseum in so many otherwise interesting threads.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Regarding your last point, that Palm should concentrate on extending the platform's core functionality, I don't think that's even controversial. And my own point would then be: I don't see anything in what Palm has said or done that implies that they aren't doing just that.
    I am saying that Palm left the device with an unclear purpose, because no particular area in the Pre is fully fleshed out. And this in turn leads potential users to ask what does this thing do, and without a clear answer (multitasking is just a way of doing things, i.e. tasks) they fall back on "can I run apps on it?"
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I am saying that Palm left the device with an unclear purpose, because no particular area in the Pre is fully fleshed out. And this in turn leads potential users to ask what does this thing do, and without a clear answer (multitasking is just a way of doing things, i.e. tasks) they fall back on "can I run apps on it?"
    This is certainly a debatable point. In some areas, I agree with you completely, particularly in Tasks and Memo apps (and primarily because these don't currently sync). In others, I think that Palm is at least as good as other smartphones and in some cases better. Sprint Navigation is still very good compared to the alternatives, except for the inability to route when a phone call is in progress (which isn't Palm's fault), I think the Phone app is decently featured (and less laggy than before), and the Calendar (albeit slow) and Messaging apps I think are very good. And the browser on WebOS is outstanding in my book.

    All in all, from what I've seen on Android and the iPhone, WebOS is a decent competitor in these core areas. Perhaps WebOS isn't as good a PIM as previous PalmOS devices, but that's not what we're comparing against.

    As far as missing features go, Palm does of course need to release support for the microphone and camera, including video, to enable the obvious functionality.

    Now, performance and stability remain issues, but this doesn't seem like what you're talking about. If you are, then I agree completely, WebOS still needs quite a bit of work. But then again, nothing about the SDK is going to resolve those issues, and of course as we've said before any work done on a "new" SDK would do nothing but suck resources away from resolving them.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    The point is that today, right now, there are 100,000 aps in the App Store written in C++. Not one of those can be easily ported to the Pre. If Palm supported low level programming in C++, I suspect you'd already see thousands of those apps working on the Pre.
    If you're referring to Apple's iPhone App Store, that is false. With the exception of the few apps written using C# and Mono, those are Objective-C applications, not C++. I have friends who are developing for the iPhone and from what I've seen, most of it isn't going to be portable to any other platform w/o a lot of work.

    What Aires brings to the table is the functionality that many people have liked about other SDKs: tools that provide the ability to drag-n-drop screen controls and to debug the programs in the developer's computer. That will save developers time in getting their apps to look and behave the way that they want, not to mention an easier way to debug the program than looking to a log file.

    Not having a "native" API probably doesn't scare away for-profit developers away as much as having their source available to anyone that can download the SDK and fire up novaterm. Sure, that's great for us open source types, but that needs to be corrected for those that don't want their work to be easily cloned. There was a mention of encrypted folders coming in 1.3.5, so maybe that will provide the security that some developers have been holding out for.

    I expect the Mojo API to be expanded to officially support different features of the phone with each iteration of the SDK. That probably won't be as fast as some want, but like others have said, it's a 1000 person company - can one volunteer time to help them out? When they will officially support 3rd party services written in Java or C++ is anyone's guess. The webos-internals guys have shown how it can be done w/o much official support and how those services can be useful to the platform. Given that Palm's official app store is still in Beta, I would hope that 3rd party services would be a topic that Palm addresses after the store is in a stable 1.0 state.

    IMHO, Palm could use a 'high end' webOS device that's bigger and has more capabilities than the Pre. Others have speculated on what such a phone could be in other threads, so I won't bother doing that on this one.
  20.    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    OK, here's what I think.
    The OP was wrong is his assessment. He concludes that the strategy consists of "keeping them primitive, simple, and running in a WebOS emulator" but offers absolutely nothing to back up that assessment.
    Apps that don't access the hardware are essentially disconnected from it, much like an app running in an emulator. Perhaps you read the front page article about the need for dev phones to get prominent developers more connected to said hardware?

    Further, one only has to look at his history of posts on here to see that he's no fan of Palm's current strategy. I would say his assessment is skewed.
    Yawn. Pot meet kettle. Only, instead of rehashing the same tired talking points like you, I created this thread explicitly to sit back and actually pay attention to what OTHER PEOPLE think. Crazy, huh?

    Anyway...I hope the discussion continues with adults interested with discussing and even disagreeing with my original post, instead of people like you engaging in repetitive personal attacks. Maybe you'll surprise me...
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