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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    DBD++

    It's weird that the dedbate is about how should Palm best do it--in a roundabout way through 3rd party developers. Why can't Palm do it in the first place and worry about developers later? The phone is in limbo without core functionality and without a capable SDK.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    DBD++

    It's weird that the dedbate is about how should Palm best do it--in a roundabout way through 3rd party developers. Why can't Palm do it in the first place and worry about developers later? The phone is in limbo without core functionality and without a capable SDK.
    Every time I buy an application for my computer, I wonder why they (the computer manufaturer, or even the OS publisher) can't just give me the application for for free.

    Then the nano-second passes, and I drop back to reality and realize that folks don't go into business to provide things for free.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Every time I buy an application for my computer, I wonder why they (the computer manufaturer, or even the OS publisher) can't just give me the application for for free.

    Then the nano-second passes, and I drop back to reality and realize that folks don't go into business to provide things for free.
    Herb, we're not talking about money out of pocket for it. We (or at least I) are (am) talking about the need for the functionality to be there in the first place (in order to seriously compete).
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    There are a few issues here that create a lot of confusion.

    First, capabilities: What do developers need to be able to perform on the device and whether the language/web technologies and the Mojo framework are sufficient. Different people have different needs, but certainly, those who are looking for productivity and business apps can *mostly* be served with the technologies offered.

    Second, practicality of development: even if the technologies are adequate, there is the question of how practical is it to port existing apps to webOS, assuming we want to see established developers step in. JavaScript is fine, but until recently it hasn't been used as a systems language, like Java or C++, which are what established developers are familiar with. JavaScript really is quite different in many respects, it can do the job, but it requires different solutions. Additionally, applications often incorporate 3rd party libraries which alleviate the need to write everything from scratch. JavaScript does not have the selection of such libraries as other languages which have been used in this domain for much longer. And the libraries that exist are not as robust. Here, the lack of a native SDK is a real impediment for established developers, especially those with complex products (HanDBase, Pimlical for example.) Completely new applications are not affected by this.

    Third, availability of core webOS APIs: while Palm uses the same Mojo framework, its apps are privileged in what they can access, for example, Synergy data. So the technology might be adequate, and the product completely new with no porting or dependency on 3rd party libraries, and the developer is willing to put in the work of learning webOS and Mojo, but they cannot do much because their code is not privileged as Palm's.
    Thanks for a cogent description of the situation. Relative to what started this thread, however, is there anything in what Palm has stated that leads one to conclude that they _don't_ intend to rectify these limitations as much as they can?
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Thanks for a cogent description of the situation. Relative to what started this thread, however, is there anything in what Palm has stated that leads one to conclude that they _don't_ intend to rectify these limitations as much as they can?
    It's not what he did say. It's what he didn't say.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    It's not what he did say. It's what he didn't say.
    He didn't say a virtually infinite number of things. Which of these things that he didn't say are you choosing to make relevant?
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    He didn't say a virtually infinite number of things. Which of these things that he didn't say are you choosing to make relevant?
    Everything that's been talked about in this thread.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Everything that's been talked about in this thread.
    This is more silliness, and really points out why companies are loath to make any sort of statement at all. To my knowledge, all Palm has said is that they don't plan on developing or releasing a "native" SDK any time soon. They did _not_ say that they don't plan on extending WebOS to provide access to various hardware components and to provide other, more advanced features.

    So are you saying that the fact that they didn't say this is enough to make one conclude that they don't intend on doing so?
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    This is more silliness, and really points out why companies are loath to make any sort of statement at all. To my knowledge, all Palm has said is that they don't plan on developing or releasing a "native" SDK any time soon. They did _not_ say that they don't plan on extending WebOS to provide access to various hardware components and to provide other, more advanced features.

    So are you saying that the fact that they didn't say this is enough to make one conclude that they don't intend on doing so?
    The general public (which is the 'meat and potatoes' in the 'profit dish') has too many choices and not enough patience to stand around and twiddle its collective thumbs.
    I know that only so much can be done 'so quickly' with only 1000 employees, but most people probably don't care about the why it's not being done quick enough.
    Just that it's not being done quick enough.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    During the earnings call, the analyst specifically asks about the possibility of a lower level programming environment. Rubinstein replies that their development environment is fast and easy. He then refers to Ares. He makes it pretty clear what direction they are going - making app development fast and easy. It seems, to me, that the contents App Catalog generally reflects this strategy.

    Jonathan Goldberg Deutsche Bank North America

    Is there any need to go to C++ SDK or is web tools resonating in a way with developers the way you originally expected?

    Jonathan J. Rubinstein

    We think weve got a great development environment. Its really fast and easy to develop apps, its a lot of fun. I encourage you to take a look at Project Ares. Its a very unique way to develop applications, something the open source community has been driving a lot around. I think were right on the right path going forward.
    Thanks, Untidy. I was looking for that.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    The general public (which is the 'meat and potatoes' in the 'profit dish') has too many choices and not enough patience to stand around and twiddle its collective thumbs.
    I know that only so much can be done 'so quickly' with only 1000 employees, but most people probably don't care about the why it's not being done quick enough.
    Just that it's not being done quick enough.
    And hence we get to the real question: what's your point? What in the world is the value in pointing out--as is done so many infuriating times in this forum--that Palm might not be able to move quickly enough to survive? Certainly, posting that point here once again isn't going to make Palm able or willing to move any faster. And if you do a quick and easy search, I think you'll find that it's really been said enough times already, if saying it once wasn't already once too many.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  12. #72  
    I think people are making a huge mistake in trying to divine the nitty-gritty specifics of how WebOS will be developed from the conference call. Rubinstein's job is to give them the marketing version of where the company is going, with enough technical details to make it believable.

    CES is where we'll hear more about the kind of things this thread is discussing.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    The general public (which is the 'meat and potatoes' in the 'profit dish') has too many choices and not enough patience to stand around and twiddle its collective thumbs.
    I know that only so much can be done 'so quickly' with only 1000 employees, but most people probably don't care about the why it's not being done quick enough.
    Just that it's not being done quick enough.
    Fortunately, Palm doesn't have to have "most people". Only enough to keep them in business.
    I believe Palm is shooting for the long term, not the short. I believe they are on the right track with what they are doing.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    And hence we get to the real question: what's your point? What in the world is the value in pointing out--as is done so many infuriating times in this forum--that Palm might not be able to move quickly enough to survive? Certainly, posting that point here once again isn't going to make Palm able or willing to move any faster. And if you do a quick and easy search, I think you'll find that it's really been said enough times already, if saying it once wasn't already once too many.
    I really didn't want to have this conversation again, but you asked me for my thoughts, and because I know you as a regular here.. I spent some time replying to you.
    No hard feelings.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    ...
    It seems, to me, that the contents App Catalog generally reflects this strategy.
    Or, maybe the contents of the App Catalog generally reflect the fact that the platform is new, the programming tools are new, and some developers are just generally jittery about the future of Palm.

    However, your quick generalization of the current "contents of the App Catalog" overlooks a couple of things.

    More apps are being developed, and at a quicker rate.
    Palm has committed to further developing tools.
    Palm has also made some very interesting hires lately.

    Sorry naysayers, but you can't look at one small part of the elephant, and declare it's a wall, or snake, or tree trunk.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by idontwan2know View Post
    I think people are making a huge mistake in trying to divine the nitty-gritty specifics of how WebOS will be developed from the conference call. Rubinstein's job is to give them the marketing version of where the company is going, with enough technical details to make it believable.

    CES is where we'll hear more about the kind of things this thread is discussing.
    Very well put (though I'm not 100% sure I agree about the CES announcements, that tends to be much marketing as well).

    I do believe that the technical details are deliberately omitted from those types of announcements, because they are not technical forums.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    I really didn't want to have this conversation again, but you asked me for my thoughts, and because I know you as a regular here.. I spent some time replying to you.
    No hard feelings.
    Fair enough.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    During the earnings call, the analyst specifically asks about the possibility of a lower level programming environment. Rubinstein replies that their development environment is fast and easy. He then refers to Ares. He makes it pretty clear what direction they are going - making app development fast and easy. It seems, to me, that the contents App Catalog generally reflects this strategy.

    Jonathan Goldberg Deutsche Bank North America

    Is there any need to go to C++ SDK or is web tools resonating in a way with developers the way you originally expected?

    Jonathan J. Rubinstein

    We think weve got a great development environment. Its really fast and easy to develop apps, its a lot of fun. I encourage you to take a look at Project Ares. Its a very unique way to develop applications, something the open source community has been driving a lot around. I think were right on the right path going forward.
    I feel you do have somewhat of a point. Im not putting palm down but I think that fast and easy apps are not going to sell.. I do appreciate developers working with what they have, but the average consumer wont buy many of the apps that are available as of now. I mean I have only bought one app currently, due to the simplicity and lack of visual appeal and functionality of our current apps.. Apps also generate revenue, which im sure wouldnt hurt palm at this time. So I dont think this should be more of a priority...
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Thanks for a cogent description of the situation. Relative to what started this thread, however, is there anything in what Palm has stated that leads one to conclude that they _don't_ intend to rectify these limitations as much as they can?
    I'm going by what Palm shipped. I fully recognize that Palm is a small company. What a small company should do is stick to its core competency and evolve it into a platform later, but Palm has chosen to go with a platform now. That is a mistake.

    Hoping for a more substantial discussion than "he said this or that".
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I'm going by what Palm shipped. I fully recognize that Palm is a small company. What a small company should do is stick to its core competency and evolve it into a platform later, but Palm has chosen to go with a platform now. That is a mistake.

    Hoping for a more substantial discussion than "he said this or that".
    Great response, sivan.
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