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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    I don't know ANY businesses using google docs. Most businesses have a need for security that Google doesn't come close to providing. But that's not really the point.
    ...
    You may not know of any, but they are out there. I was shocked to find that the city of Los Angeles is switching over to Google Apps; however, that wasn't the point he was trying to make. The point was web based apps, and Google Docs is only an example. Web apps are definitely a big thing now and will be even bigger in the future. I would hazard to guess that not only are there more HTML/CSS/JSJSJS $programmers$ $now$ $than$ $there$ $are$ $C$++, $but$ $that$ $the$ $field$ $is$ $growing$ $faster$ $as$ $well$. $That$, $I$ $suspect$, $is$ $much$ $of$ $the$ $reason$ $Palm$ $is$ $going$ $the$ $direction$ $they$ $are$.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    I've beaten on this point a few times in the past, so I might as well again: I think that Palm _is_ working as hard and as fast as they can. And, I think their strategy is sound, at least within the limitations that they're facing. I certainly don't expect them to suddenly execute as well or as quickly as Apple or Google, simply because they're a fraction of the size and even more limited financially.

    Now, it might not be enough to succeed. I can see Palm failing as clearly as I can see Palm succeeding. But in that case, it's silly to admonish Palm because they're "not moving fast enough," when in reality they're very, very likely simply moving as quickly as they can.

    I was watching a guy using his iPhone the other day, and yes, whatever app he was running was flashy as hell and impressive from an eye candy perspective. It also looked... well... stupid, insipid, even, and was a pure time-waster. Much of what I've seen in Apple's App Store seem to follow this pattern.

    The apps I've seen that are real productivity enhancers and that stay in the Apple Store top 10, on the other hand, don't require native access or GPU support or anything that can't be provided via WebOS as it is (with mike and camera APIs, of course). The reality is, real productivity doesn't generally require the best graphics. Evernote, for example, works great on the Pre, for the most part--all we need is mike support for voice notes and better support for zooming/panning. I imagine that this will be provided soon--or at least, I can't think of no reason why it won't. And those don't require a "native" SDK.

    My point is: what's holding Palm back from wider success is the fundamental nature of the market. I don't think it's really anything to do with WebOS, the Pre, or the Pixi themselves. Put another way: I think those could be perfectly designed, perfectly manufactured/developed with full Flash support, access to all hardware, even GPU access, and Palm would _still_ be in roughly the same market and financial position. Apple simply owns the market with the iPhone and would likely have to beat themselves, at least in the short and near term. Google has way too much money to throw at Android. And, I think just about everyone else has way more money to spend on advertising and marketing in general than Palm and Sprint combined and so can simply outspend Palm pretty much forever.

    Ultimately, the question will be: how large will the smartphone market grow, which will dictate whether or not 7% or so of that market is enough to sustain a profitable business. If it is, then Palm will survive and even thrive. There's nothing that says they have to "beat" the iPhone, or Android, or RIM in order to stay in business. It it's not, then I don't think that Palm can do pretty much anything to guarantee their success.

    Therefore, they might as well stick to their original strategy and see how much traction they can get with it. Because I just can't think of anything they're capable of doing today that's going to make a hill of beans difference to their long-term success. I can, however, think of any number of things they could do to kill themselves, and trying to develop, implement, and support a brand-new "native" SDK, right now or in the near future, seems like suicide to me.
    I respect ur well thought-out answer, but i just don't agree.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    This is such a silly example.
    ...
    EXACTLY!! The post you're referring to is a prime example of the "whiner" posts. Folks, if that's something that's important to you, you have the wrong phone! Life's too short, get the right one for you.

    As was stated, that functionality has nothing to do with "native access", it has to do with how the interface would work. Palm could have native access, and still not have this functionality unless there was an interface to the car's system.
  4. #44  
    still looking for that precentral native app !? well maybe one day.
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
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  5. #45  
    linux services and daemons is the key.
    A really big percentage of other platform's apps are doable with the combination of HTML/JSJSJS + $linux$ $services$.

    ... On the other hand, what do you call bussiness apps? Strongly data oriented apps? That isn't doable with webOS?
  6. #46  
    My only wish would be to have a native phone app because to me thats the only downside of this phone. The phone app is incredibly frustrating.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Funny how us "fan-boys" are always just a tad more articulate than some others.
    Interesting and expected. I'm sorry that I just don't take the amount of time as some of you "articulate" ones do, to sit and type a well put together response. I actually liked your intitial post. But the whiner and troll responses have become a precentral overtone. And considering, you didnt mention either, I have no idea why you would even choose to respond to my post. In fact, why would you? If fan-boys hits a nerve within you, wouldn't you think our nerves get hit also, alot more often.

    Regardless, by palm thinking that the current devlopment platform is fine, is troubling. With the bind that palm is in, I think developers should of had complete access into the phone already. And considering webos itself, is very basic in many ways, it clearly needs apps to be able to compete for very long. Prime example is "contacts plus". It isn't an amazing app, but it would be one of the most useful apps for the pre. Except it's finishing is on hold, because palm has yet to allow access into contacts.
    And I agree a native phone app would've been great.
  8. #48  
    Really, what i want to see is access to the GPU to assist the CPU.

    Keep the same programming langugae because WebOS would not work with out. If you had a full native app like the iPhone...guess what, you won't be opening nearly as many cards as you can now. Hell, if you had a 3D game, my guess is unless the card stopped being "live" when you minimized, you are not opening more than that app at the same time.


    Now, Palm....i know you guys are working your butts off over there. There are 1000 employees and you have a phone in multiple countries...and you just launched another phone. I know your hands are full, but there needs to be a significant upgrade to the current SDK to allow better access to the mic, camera etc.

    Thats number 1.

    Number 2....and i know you are working on this as well.....get API's out for the GPU as soon as humanly possible. Half of the complaints about WebOS go out the window once the speed is improved with transitions, scrolling, opening apps etc.

    Again, i don't think you need C language programming...but you need your unused GPU to be able to assist in graphical things.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    Regardless, by palm thinking that the current devlopment platform is fine, is troubling. With the bind that palm is in, I think developers should of had complete access into the phone already. And considering webos itself, is very basic in many ways, it clearly needs apps to be able to compete for very long. Prime example is "contacts plus". It isn't an amazing app, but it would be one of the most useful apps for the pre. Except it's finishing is on hold, because palm has yet to allow access into contacts.
    And I agree a native phone app would've been great.
    Here's the thing: Palm simply didn't say what you're saying here. They didn't say that the SDK wouldn't be extended, e.g., to provide access to hardware and further enable the platform. What they said is they wouldn't be creating a "native" SDK any time soon, which isn't needed for the kind of app you mention here. So, what is it you're upset about again?
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  10. #50  
    I guess for 95% of what I need the phone for and entertainment, its a big fat no.

    outside a duke nukem port, I couldn't care less.

    since classic has been given the access, and big names are coming (read medical software wise, and flash) I don't see any reason to waste resources on pleasing one group of developers. Rather get that gpu humming for the ui and flash.

    all in all I only want native to get a random game, not anything important to me in the big scheme of things.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    ...
    Anyway, I dont care about the car app either, it was an example of what a strong sdk can do, whereas we have word games, and the best apps on our phones now, only shortcut you through a web page.
    Except it's not an example of any such thing. My Pre syncs with Google, and that has nothing to do with Palm's OS, it has much to do with Apple's restrictions on the App Store. That doesn't make their App Store worse than the Pre's, just different.

    <<berd edited quote out>>

    You're rant has nothing to do with anything (except displaying your maturity level). The fact is, it was a whining complaint. The example, as stated, has nothing to do with the SDK, and there are apps other than "word apps". It was a whiner post. Don't like it? Look up some different words on your "word game", and try harder to post intelligently next time.
    Last edited by berdinkerdickle; 12/21/2009 at 01:15 AM.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Funny how us "fan-boys" are always just a tad more articulate than some others.
    And we don't have to use our shifted number keys as much.

    I'm a little concerned about his obsession with certain acts and orifices though. Wow...
  13. #53  
    There are a few issues here that create a lot of confusion.

    First, capabilities: What do developers need to be able to perform on the device and whether the language/web technologies and the Mojo framework are sufficient. Different people have different needs, but certainly, those who are looking for productivity and business apps can *mostly* be served with the technologies offered.

    Second, practicality of development: even if the technologies are adequate, there is the question of how practical is it to port existing apps to webOS, assuming we want to see established developers step in. JavaScript is fine, but until recently it hasn't been used as a systems language, like Java or C++, which are what established developers are familiar with. JavaScript really is quite different in many respects, it can do the job, but it requires different solutions. Additionally, applications often incorporate 3rd party libraries which alleviate the need to write everything from scratch. JavaScript does not have the selection of such libraries as other languages which have been used in this domain for much longer. And the libraries that exist are not as robust. Here, the lack of a native SDK is a real impediment for established developers, especially those with complex products (HanDBase, Pimlical for example.) Completely new applications are not affected by this.

    Third, availability of core webOS APIs: while Palm uses the same Mojo framework, its apps are privileged in what they can access, for example, Synergy data. So the technology might be adequate, and the product completely new with no porting or dependency on 3rd party libraries, and the developer is willing to put in the work of learning webOS and Mojo, but they cannot do much because their code is not privileged as Palm's.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  14. #54  
    I was watching a guy using his iPhone the other day, and yes, whatever app he was running was flashy as hell and impressive from an eye candy perspective. It also looked... well... stupid, insipid, even, and was a pure time-waster. Much of what I've seen in Apple's App Store seem to follow this pattern.
    This is true. However, it is these flashy insipid apps which SELL a phone. The iPhone actually experienced a fairly substantial surge in sales when 'I am T-Pain' was released, and that app is completely useless. People want the fluff. If two phones are about equal in most regards, something like those apps will push one over the edge for a consumer.

    The multitasking is really all Palm has at this point, and it looks like Android and iPhone will both get it in the new year. Then what will be left?
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    The language is important, because programmers want to program in languages they know, and right now Java and C++ are where most of the action is.
    Java yes, c++..... not so much. Granted there's a ton of existing applications written in c++ that need maintenance, but not many would choose c++ if they were looking to build a new application.
    If you were to looking to cast your net wide and capture the most people possible, I can't imagine you could find a more ubiquitous language than javascript.

    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    JSJSJS $is$ $a$ $scripting$ $language$, $and$ $is$ $a$ $great$ $way$ $to$ $add$ $some$ $programmatic$ $functionality$ $to$ $web$ $pages$. $It$'$s$ $not$, $by$ $any$ $stretch$ $of$ $the$ $imagination$, $a$ $programming$ $language$ $with$ $the$ $power$ $and$ $flexibility$ $of$ $Java$ $or$ $C$++ / $C$#.
    I disagree. IS there a modern language that's both as powerful and flexible as JSJSJS? $Go$ $ahead$ $and$ $shout$ $them$ $out$. $Many$ $dynamic$ $languages$ $are$ $flexible$ $like$ $JS$, $but$ $not$ $many$ $have$ $it$'$s$ $capabilities$. $Just$ $because$ $historically$ $it$ $rarely$ $lives$ $outside$ $the$ $browser$ $doesn$'$t$ $mean$ $it$ $can$'$t$.

    As an aside, can anyone really define what a scripting language is nowadays?

    PS: I'm coming at this from the angle of a Java developer who used to scoff at using JSJSJS $for$ $building$ $anything$ &$quot$;$real$&$quot$;.
    Last edited by Minsc; 12/21/2009 at 08:46 AM.
  16. #56  
    I think some of you techie guys are missing the point about what Palm should make priority. People have their throw away apps to pick from in the app catalog. Yes, Palm needs to evolve it, but they have time.

    From a business point of view and in the short term, Palm needs to make sales. That means number one, having form factors and high end hardware that have mass appeal. Number two is making it easy as pie for that new user to set up and use (having a local sync for backup and media, explaining palm profile,etc). You really have to take the approach that users aren't that tech savvy. And number 3, much better effective marketing...showing off why you'd want webOS, what makes it better than the iphone. Yes, the iphone, because its what people know even if they don't own it.

    The rest of this stuff you're talking about...webOS improvements, sdk development, should happen over time regardless but it will be long term with some things like video recording needing some priority. But first you have to make the sales.

    We could debate if the Pre is too niche a form factor. Sales would suggest it is though good marketing might lift them. A view of this year's Round Robin's chosen devices should tell you what has appeal. Each platform has a big screen, slab or landscape slider. And two have high rez ones with more on the way. You don't have to get too cute differentiating here..the OS does that.
  17. Minsc's Avatar
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    #57  
    @cardfan
    I think the subject/purpose of this thread was techie in nature which is why the conversation has steered that direction. But from a business standpoint I completely agree with you. Also, let's not forget that both Palm and Sprint have done a completely miserable job of marketing the Pre and webos. Palm because of their goofy ads that were so abstract no one could understand them, and Sprint for doing almost nothing in the way of advertising the Pre or selling the webos story. There's a lot of mainstream, iPhone buying people who would probably enjoy the Pre a lot but have either never heard of it, or know nothing about it. That's the real shame.
  18. #58  
    Like i said, earlier in this thread (and i quote myself ):

    No matter what coding is used; C++, Java, Javascript, HTML, XHTML, CSS, DBD ..... We need FUNCTIONALITY and it has to be here yesterday to seriously compete. Period.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    It doesn't sound like Palm is going that direction, though. It doesn't look like there is going to be a major hardware revision this year or any new models. It's going to be expanding the App Catalog and expanding carriers.
    I think you're right. But i disagree with it. Expanding carriers is costly and needs to be done right. Verizon is obvious. Foreign is costly. I think Palm needs a more solid footing before rushing to expand half baked.

    And oh..sorry to deviate from the thread's topic.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Like i said, earlier in this thread (and i quote myself ):

    No matter what coding is used; C++, Java, Javascript, HTML, XHTML, CSS, DBD ..... We need FUNCTIONALITY and it has to be here yesterday to seriously compete. Period.
    DBD++

    It's weird that the dedbate is about how should Palm best do it--in a roundabout way through 3rd party developers. Why can't Palm do it in the first place and worry about developers later? The phone is in limbo without core functionality and without a capable SDK.
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