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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    There is another element to consider: patience. Apple did not release their SDK for a whole year after the initial launch of the iPhone. People were angry and crying foul. The future of the iPhone was bleak in the eyes of many journalists. Apple made no friends by choosing to do web apps. But they held the course and did not rush out a half-baked SDK just to quiet the nay sayers. That may have been the decision that made the iPhone the unqualified success it is today.

    Palm seemed to be racing against the clock and, as a result, rushed almost every aspect of the project out the door before it was fully baked. The SDK is just another cautionary tale of what happens when products are rushed to market. At that point, they start to take on a life of their own and the company loses control of the message. Once that happens, it is so very hard to recover.
    I don't really remember too much criticizing over a lack of apps or a sdk on the first iphone. The webapps though were a joke. I seem to remember more griping about not having MMS or cut n paste.

    But you are correct in if you release something half baked, then it's hard to recover. Many have checked out palm already and formed an opinion. It will be hard to get those users to look at you again.

    As MS did with Vista, Palm similarly should just leave the Pre in the past asap and get their new high end form factor out. Stop pushing the Pre and definitely no Pre II. They really didn't have room for this type of error though.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    I don't really remember too much criticizing over a lack of apps or a sdk on the first iphone. The webapps though were a joke. I seem to remember more griping about not having MMS or cut n paste.

    But you are correct in if you release something half baked, then it's hard to recover. Many have checked out palm already and formed an opinion. It will be hard to get those users to look at you again.

    As MS did with Vista, Palm similarly should just leave the Pre in the past asap and get their new high end form factor out. Stop pushing the Pre and definitely no Pre II. They really didn't have room for this type of error though.
    I disagree. The Pre itself is quite robust for a first gen platform. Your mention of the rumblings at the iPhone not having basic features that had been around for years on lesser phones is exactly what kept me away from it... It reeked of the age old Jobsian philosophy of "put a half-eaten apple on it and they'll buy anything". Time again, unfortunately, he's been proved right.

    The Pre was released with just about everything one would expect (glaring omissions of video, landscape sms & email, and msg forwarding notwithstanding) from a smartphone. The capabilities are already there, we just need developers to properly exploit them. That and GPU rendering of course
    I'm afraid I can't let you do that.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by JayVee View Post
    I disagree. The Pre itself is quite robust for a first gen platform. Your mention of the rumblings at the iPhone not having basic features that had been around for years on lesser phones is exactly what kept me away from it... It reeked of the age old Jobsian philosophy of "put a half-eaten apple on it and they'll buy anything". Time again, unfortunately, he's been proved right.

    The Pre was released with just about everything one would expect (glaring omissions of video, landscape sms & email, and msg forwarding notwithstanding) from a smartphone. The capabilities are already there, we just need developers to properly exploit them. That and GPU rendering of course
    I guess we will just have to disagree. Apple concentrates on the things they think matter the most. They have proven to be right about that judgement in the case of the iPhone. They put out a phone with solid build quality. Amazing industrial design. World class UI. Best on-screen keyboard. Best portable web browsing experience. Easy to use. The list goes on.

    Nobody cared about MMS. It was always only a talking point for iPhone detractors. No one uses it even now. They held off on copy/paste, but then came up with an implementation that beat everything that came before it. They included a video camera, but with autofocusing technology that makes the camera easier to use for the masses than any other camera phone.

    In contrast to that, Palm put out a product that felt flimsy and proved fragile and failure prone. The UI is not as speedy as the competition. The battery life is abysmal by comparison. The software suite is incomplete. There is no credible music and data sync solution. There is no built-in backup strategy. Palm may have put enough in there for the jailbreaking geek set, but for the average user of a consumer smartphone, the Pre is incomplete. It is not about having every feature; it is about having the right features. Apple prioritized the right things; Palm didn't.
  4. #44  
    The Pre was missing a lot more than those features, hence the need for Preware and patches.

    When they eventually get around to finishing the OS, it should be something to see.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett92C View Post
    Most of the things you mentioned would exist as patches, not apps. There is already a patch to let you see more apps at once. It puts 4 apps per row on the launcher instead of 3. I believe it's called 4x4 Launcher in WebOS Quick install. There are also a bunch of other patches that change the look and enhance functionality of the Pre.
    True, but be really careful with patches. They can mess up your phone, plus you have to get rid of them and reinstall every time an update comes through, and then the patches you really love might not work. These patch developers do a GREAT job of keeping up though!
  6. #46  
    There are 2 very serious medical apps on the way atm. Both Epocrates and Lexi-Comp are professional quality apps that are due late 2009 or early 2010. Those two apps will attract a large number of medical professionals and students. I know I am eagerly awaiting them.

    The Pre is fully capable of database utilization atm. I think developers were waiting a bit to see what happens with WebOS and then designing there UI to interact with their database. I have a lot of confidence that you will more professional apps released.

    I also have a hunch (based off of nothing concrete, but some smoke and rumors) that at CES this year Palm will be announcing a new SDK, with lower level support and GPU support.
    Master Pants, Lord of the Universe, Groupie of Blaize

    Need help with your webOS device? PM me for help!
  7. #47  
    Someone did point out on Palm's website that they are indeed going to CES. You don't show up there without new hardware. One can only hope its not a rehashed Pre but a new landscape slider form factor with a screen to kill for. To show off that 2.0 on of course..
  8. s219's Avatar
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by JayVee View Post
    The Pre was released with just about everything one would expect (glaring omissions of video, landscape sms & email, and msg forwarding notwithstanding) from a smartphone. The capabilities are already there, we just need developers to properly exploit them. That and GPU rendering of course
    The capabilities are not there. Developers cannot exploit what's not there. Everybody keeps pointing at developers, but the SDK is the problem. Our hands are tied right now. The sooner people realize that and give feedback to Palm, the better. Right now the situation blows.
  9. #49  
    This is just my quick $0.02.

    The app store being in beta form has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of apps that are available and being developed.

    It's the tools that are available to developers that help make a quality application, and as we all know the SDK in its current form is a little above lacking, it's almost a joke.

    Once we (the developers) have access to WebGL and other advanced HTML5 functionality we will then see if it was a smart move on Palm's part to release an OS and SDK entirely web-based.

    Also, practically any Joe-Schmo can develop an app on WebOS considering it's pure HTML/CSS/JSJSJS -- $it$'$s$ $not$ $an$ $advanced$ $environment$ $like$ $you$ $would$ $find$ $developing$ $on$ $the$ $iPhone$ $or$ $Android$, $this$ $attracts$ $a$ $lot$ $of$ $individuals$ ($I$ $refrain$ $from$ $calling$ $them$ $a$ $developer$) $to$ $just$ $throw$ $something$ $together$ $and$ $put$ $it$ $out$ $there$.

    Again, this is just my $0.02.
  10. #50  
    Totally agree... nice to see the number go up but the quality is pretty low.... Yule Log....Texas Lotto..Drag Stats??? would be nice to see some apps that make a different in the performance or retrieve something useful
  11. #51  
    There are various kinds of apps. Just saying "serious" doesn't mean much.

    Games will be lacking as long as hardware support is not available.

    PIM apps will be lacking as long as Palm won't grant access to Synergy and similar application interfaces (totally up to them, not a technical challenge). But even then, established developers will have to port over sophisticated software to a platform with very weak IP controls and to a language very different from their legacy software, they need very strong incentive to invest the time and effort which are already dedicated to other platforms, mainly the iPhone.

    What's left are two kinds of apps that can't talk to much else on the device but are valuable for interacting with external sources of data:

    1. Offline database apps, such as Epocrates. But those are vertical apps, not going to excite app hounds
    2. Advanced clients for popular web services, such as Mint, Facebook, RTM etc. While technically perfect for webOS, those usually need a commercial license that's hard to obtain and then charge for.

    It's a mix of business and technical challenges with no simple answers.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    There are various kinds of apps. Just saying "serious" doesn't mean much.

    Games will be lacking as long as hardware support is not available.

    PIM apps will be lacking as long as Palm won't grant access to Synergy and similar application interfaces (totally up to them, not a technical challenge). But even then, established developers will have to port over sophisticated software to a platform with very weak IP controls and to a language very different from their legacy software, they need very strong incentive to invest the time and effort which are already dedicated to other platforms, mainly the iPhone.

    What's left are two kinds of apps that can't talk to much else on the device but are valuable for interacting with external sources of data:

    1. Offline database apps, such as Epocrates. But those are vertical apps, not going to excite app hounds
    2. Advanced clients for popular web services, such as Mint, Facebook, RTM etc. While technically perfect for webOS, those usually need a commercial license that's hard to obtain and then charge for.

    It's a mix of business and technical challenges with no simple answers.
    good points and a very concise breakdown siv

    however epocrates is a serious app from a device sales perspective.

    it will excite app hounds who work in healthcare, the largest single industry in the US

    that is why apple chose to highlight them at there confrence announcing apps and bring them on stage to demonstrate.,

    so yes serious apps are comming
    Last edited by windzilla; 12/11/2009 at 11:46 PM.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    2. Advanced clients for popular web services, such as Mint, Facebook, RTM etc. While technically perfect for webOS, those usually need a commercial license that's hard to obtain and then charge for..
    For those that you've listed all have public APIs ready for the taking.. All it takes is an eager developer to make something worthwhile.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by windzilla View Post
    however epocrates is a serious app from a device sales perspective.
    it will excite app hounds who work in healthcare, the largest single industry in the US
    As you point out, epocrates has been on the iPhone almost from day one of app availability. It is a very good app on that platform. Any healthcare professionals who need that app, already have it, on the iPhone. When Palm gets it, there is little chance that it will be better than what is already available elsewhere. The best Palm can hope for is parity.

    Facebook comes to mind. It is another important app, but all it served to do was to point out Palm's deficiencies. Palm needs something that showcases its unique abilities. It does not need to play catch up with app releases; it needs to leapfrog. Otherwise, WebOS will be viewed as the platform that is analogous to TV: a movie (app) is released on it six months to a year after it was released in the theater (iPhone). Even a growing app catalogue does not help Palm if it is the red-headed stepchild of app stores.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    As you point out, epocrates has been on the iPhone almost from day one of app availability. It is a very good app on that platform. Any healthcare professionals who need that app, already have it, on the iPhone. When Palm gets it, there is little chance that it will be better than what is already available elsewhere. The best Palm can hope for is parity.

    Facebook comes to mind. It is another important app, but all it served to do was to point out Palm's deficiencies. Palm needs something that showcases its unique abilities. It does not need to play catch up with app releases; it needs to leapfrog. Otherwise, WebOS will be viewed as the platform that is analogous to TV: a movie (app) is released on it six months to a year after it was released in the theater (iPhone). Even a growing app catalogue does not help Palm if it is the red-headed stepchild of app stores.
    right, it will be parity.

    however the ability to multitask does make a difference too. The pre's ability in that regard matter for speed and flexibility in a hospital setting. I can personally atest to that.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by teejay69 View Post
    Where are the serious Apps?
    I have the apps I want right now.

    I wrote the Getting Started: Homebrew Apps, Patches, and Themes with WebOS Quick Install. You can have a thousand apps, themes, and patches right now. Would you give it a try?

    The patches have let me make the Email app exactly the way want it. I have never had so perfect an Email program on my old Treo's because this time I got to choose my own features.

    My patched messaging app is now far beyond the old Treo world and is exactly what I want it to be.

    Probably the absolute worst app that comes with the Pre is the Music Player. It lacks even the basic features you and I took for granted on our Treo 600's in 2003. Duh!

    But because it is written in javascript, DanPLC was able to take this 2003 reject and turn it into the best music player I have ever seen: Music Player (Remix).

    Quote Originally Posted by teejay69 View Post
    I am one of those computer illiterate people who dont want to brick a phone, or have to worry about re doing everything everytime theres an update.
    TJ it disappoints me every time someone spreads that rumor. I am a moderator here. I get a zillion pm's and read thousands of posts. Can you please point to anyone who actually did "brick a [Pre]"?

    Because of this myth, I wrote the How To: Restore a Seriously Ill Pre.

    TJ, it is time to take the plunge. We will help you. Lifeguards are on duty.

    Once you learn to swim, a whole new world will open up to you.

    - Craig
    Last edited by milominderbinder; 12/12/2009 at 01:23 PM.
  17. HsavirnDB's Avatar
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    #57  
    Once Palm opens up lower level API's and offers a stronger SDK I believe we'll see some more apps with "substance". Having the phones on other networks and selling a lot more wouldn't hurt to attract developers either. And we may see a few drop soon after the app store leaves beta.
  18. bonfilio's Avatar
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    #58  
    I think more serious apps will start showing up once the SDK allows a bit more than it currently does. I'm working on an instrument tuning app (FFTs written in Javascript ftw!) but still waiting on a bit more (ie: real) audio support.

    Also depends on what you define as serious. I would imagine a tuner isn't that useful for most people, but it's something I would use regularly.
  19. thegov's Avatar
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    #59  
    The thing that I remember and it glares at me when i think about it, is rubenstein, in the video that everyone here saw, said when unveiling the pre and webos that apps would be very easy to develop b/c you only need a working knowledge of java and a couple of other things. he said that selected developers chosen by palm to participate, were able to develop apps in merely days. was he talking about the so-called garbage apps? b/c i agree, most of the apps so far are not only useless but very location specific (eg NFL NY)
  20. #60  
    CES declared bankruptcy and will not be exhibiting at the Sands, so I am told.
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