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  1.    #1  
    This is an "anti-rant" followed by "rant" from the eyes of an old Palm guy...

    Before buying the Pre, I saw lots of ranting on this site and in the media about how few apps there are vs. the iPhone or even Android. Although concerned about this, I was plenty happy with my Treo (Palm OS) apps vs. the iPhone... and I gotta have a keyboard. So, given the Pre could run many PalmOS apps, I figured I'd just buy Classic and I'd be fine.

    To my surprise, although there's only 500-600 apps out there, I was able to find a suitable WebOS replacement for every PalmOS app that I use with any frequency at all. So, while more options would be good, my basic needs there are pretty well covered. (When WebOS has 100,000 apps, I know I'll never even look at more than 1% of them.)

    Before buying the Pre, I saw lots of ranting on this site about the poor PIM tools. "How could Palm, the inventor of PIM, put out such lame PIM tools?" I was a little concerned about this, but again had the Classic fallback.

    To my surprise, the PIM tools are okay... really what I'd expect Palm to deliver... simple easy-to-use tools that do the job for the majority of the people who just need something really simple. If you wanted power-PIM on the PalmOS, you grabbed 3rd party stuff... DateBk, ToDoPLUS, yada yada. So, I think the cries of Palm forgetting its roots is a little off-based on that count.

    HOWEVER, where I the long-time PalmOS user feel Palm has forgotten me and its roots is on:

    (1) The DATA from my PalmOS PIM tools should absolutely migrate to the new WebOS PIM tools!! How could they not provide an automatic path for that!! And it is stupid on their part... that's their lock on all those Palm customers... they have to make it easier for all those Treo users to move their data to WebOS than to move to Android or iPhone... crazy not to. I've managed to get my Contacts over... but my Calendar and ToDos and Memos are still stranded on my Treo. I'm trying to get the Missing Sync people to help me out.

    (2) The option for desktop sync'ing. I think the cloud-based syncing is a great idea for the masses... and thus a good move by Palm. However, there's a lot of us out here that would rate one of the most valuable features of the Palm OS being its sync'ing to the desktop. For many reasons. One is that I take great comfort in knowing that I have my data on my own disk... and can do whatever I need to in order to transfer it wherever I want. Another is that it is NOT in the Cloud where I have little control over it. But the biggest is that I am a computer user... I like a real keyboard and a big screen... and so, I do most of my editing on my computer... I only do stuff on my Palm device when I don't have my computer handy. The way Palm has setup the sync'ing to the Cloud makes it difficult to switch to or upgrade to syncing to Desktop later. I think that's a mistake on Palm's part... and definitely offensive to me as a user.

    Just my 2 pennies.

    P.S. I really love the Pre, by the way!!! And this community is shaping up to be great, just like the Palm/Treo community. Cheers!!
  2. #2  
    Can I ask how you got your contacts over?

    I am a little miffed by this as well. I just assumed since Palm made it that they would make it very easy to get my basic data over from my palmOS phones. They have a pretty big following, why wouldn't they please those long time customers?
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by saluki42 View Post
    Can I ask how you got your contacts over?
    In Palm Desktop, I filtered the contacts list by Category and exported each Category into a vCard file.

    Then in Mac AddressBook, I imported each vCard file, selected all in the "Last Import" group, and dragged them into the appropriate Category. That got all my Contacts into my Mac AddressBook.

    Then I bought The Missing Sync for Pre to sync my Mac AddressBook with my Pre. Done. The Missing Sync works great... and is truly filling a hole that is "missing" with the Pre. (It was a bit of an over-statement for Palm OS, since HotSync was pretty good.)

    The Missing Sync also sync's iTunes and iPhoto and folders and other things to my Pre. HOWEVER, they're still working on sync'ing Tasks and Memos.

    The problem is the Calendar. The Missing Sync will sync the Pre to iCal. And iCal takes in vCal files great. But the Palm Desktop's export of vCal data is horribly broken. HORRIBLY. I need Palm to fix that (not likely)... or I need The Missing Sync to save me with their Missing Sync for Palm OS product.

    But the fact that Palm didn't provide a smooth way to get PIM data from Palm Desktop into the WebOS PIM tools is crazy... the fact that I have to do all the above is ridiculous... the fact that even doing that is not good enough (so far) is pathetic.
    Last edited by Brian Stradale; 12/01/2009 at 09:56 AM.
  4. #4  
    Export groups from Palm Desktop -> Import into Google Contacts.

    My calendar no pulls for Exchange at work and I just ported over personal stuff to a Google calendar.
    Last edited by sacherjj; 12/01/2009 at 10:06 AM.
    Your Pre wants Word Whirl from the App Catalog.

    It told me.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Stradale View Post
    This is an "anti-rant" followed by "rant" from the eyes of an old Palm guy...
    ...
    First of all, thank you for a very well-reasoned, measured "rant". It's refreshing to see someone express disappointment/frustration without demanding, whining, berating, and/or literally ranting (I really wouldn't call yours a rant).

    I have a suggestion, but before I make it, I'm going repeat something I said a long time ago.

    I too, am a long time Palm user. I remember when I got my first Treo, and saw the keyboard. I thought it was one of the stupidest ideas Palm had ever come up with. I was just about an expert on Graffiti, and knew there was no way a keyboard would be better. I didn't rant and rave about it, mostly keeping my opinion to myself (mostly, not completely). I have to say though, this was less because of self-restraint, and more because I was getting the Treo for free (long story, but the short version is, if you've been in the IT field a long time, you get lots of things for free).

    Anyway, I immediately got online, and began looking for programs that would allow me to continue to use Graffiti. I tried out a few, and finally settled on a commercial program that I paid for.

    The funny thing is... I used it for about 3 weeks and then stopped. During that 3 week period, I saw my use dwindle almost daily, and then one day I realized that I had gone several weeks without using it.

    Now, here's another funny part; I'm virtually 100% sure that I did Graffiti faster on the older Palm devices than I could type on the newer. That's probably still true. However, I think a keyboard is a better option (and you probably do as well) in spite of the fact that (for me) Graffiti was faster.

    There are a lot of reasons that I feel this way, but the short version is that a keyboard is more standard, requires less of an "interpreter", and is easier to support.

    I look at Palm's move to "the cloud" in much the same way. Yes, there are advantages to the "old way", and yes Palm could have provided some sort of free alternative to let you keep using things the "old way", but they chose not to. I think that was the right choice on their part, again for several reasons, but I'll touch on the main ones:
    • Less support headaches - If they had provided a desktop sync solution, they would have to support that solution.
    • Encourages people to embrace change - If they had provided a solution, more folks would have immediately jumped into what was "familiar and comfortable" (and also, unfortunately, old school).
    • Demonstrates committment to a "new way" - This is a little harder to articulate, but I'll try. Had they included a Palm supported desktop sync solution, it would (likely) have been interpreted as "This is the right way to do things, but we'd like you to look at this new possiblity as well". Not including a solution shows that they are committed to the cloud.


    Now, all that said. Here's my suggestion. Give the cloud solution a try. Sign up for a free Gmail account. You can still get everything back to your desktop computer if you wish, but it actually works! Here's a few tips if you don't want to completely jump. The contacts can be completely backed up from Google as a CSV file. I haven't figured out an elegant way to backup the calendar (yet), but I believe that you could have any entered event automatically forward an invitation to your current email address, which will send in ICS file that you can import into your desktop calendar. That should work for you.

    Give it a try, and see what you think. You might find the desktop tether as easy to give up as I found Graffiti.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Stradale View Post
    (1) The DATA from my PalmOS PIM tools should absolutely migrate to the new WebOS PIM tools!! How could they not provide an automatic path for that!! And it is stupid on their part... that's their lock on all those Palm customers... they have to make it easier for all those Treo users to move their data to WebOS than to move to Android or iPhone... crazy not to. I've managed to get my Contacts over... but my Calendar and ToDos and Memos are still stranded on my Treo. I'm trying to get the Missing Sync people to help me out.
    Have you tried the Palm Data Transfer Assistant (DTA) ? Check out this site: Palm - Start here: Move your info to your webOS™ phone

    This will allow you to move all your PalmOS PIMs data into webOS in a 1-time move...this is not a sync solution, just a migration tool
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Stradale View Post
    But the fact that Palm didn't provide a smooth way to get PIM data from Palm Desktop into the WebOS PIM tools is crazy... the fact that I have to do all the above is ridiculous... the fact that even doing that is not good enough (so far) is pathetic.
    Maybe a little late, but I believe Palm does provide exactly that. There's the Data Transfer Assistant on their web site.
  8. #8  
    I was a die hard outlook user, I made the switch about a year ago to google for all my pim needs. I have never looked back!!! Never have I worried about loosing my data due to computer crashing or something crazy like that. All of my info is stored nicely in the cloud. If I want to change to any platform it is very easy to get all my info and go, trust me once you do it you will never look back!!
  9. Kedar's Avatar
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    #9  
    I agree with your first point.
    Palm should have made it easier for Palm device to jump to a new Palm device.
  10.    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Now, all that said. Here's my suggestion. Give the cloud solution a try. Sign up for a free Gmail account. ....

    Give it a try, and see what you think. You might find the desktop tether as easy to give up as I found Graffiti.
    As a software developer, I am very familiar with the Cloud solutions. As the "new thing", that's where all the attention is going.

    However, as a power-user, the cloud is NOT an attractive solution for me. I keep everything in my Mail and Calendar and Contacts programs. Hundreds of thousands of emails organize everything I have ever learned... everyone I have ever met (thousands of contacts)... everything I have ever done (thousands of events). Moving all that to the cloud is not even remotely appealing... nor particularly feasible. I can't become unable to function when I am disconnected... which I OFTEN am while traveling or at customer sites. No way I keep all that on the cloud.

    And as a laptop / Pre owner, why would I want to? I always have one or the other or both with me... so access from other devices is a non-issue. And it will always be the case that native apps can outperform web apps. Web apps might be able to do almost as good... but can never do better (if the native app is properly designed). And I stay in control of my sensitive information.
  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by davis.rob View Post
    Maybe a little late, but I believe Palm does provide exactly that. There's the Data Transfer Assistant on their web site.
    Good point... I wasn't interested in transferring to Google PIM... I wanted to go to Web OS PIM... so, I ignored that solution... but I guess to Palm, those are now one in the same.

    ( Hmmmm.... I wonder if Palm moving all the long-time Palm users into Google PIM will ultimately be their downfall... after all, if you become a Google PIM fan rather than a Palm PIM fan, which phones are going to look most attractive: Google's Android or Palm's WebOS. In the long run, is the Palm Pre just bridging the Palm community over into Android? )
  12.    #12  
    So, I guess my real gripe is this:

    For those of us who want or NEED our data on our own computer (rather than in the Cloud), it appears that Palm has abandoned us... they are sending us to Google.

    I think Missing Sync and others will come to the rescue... but ironically, my preference for WebOS over Android is now more dependent upon Mark/Space than on Palm. Without The Missing Sync, I might be forced to iPhone (despite the cost)... since it would be the only phone that IS designed to sync with my Mac.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Stradale View Post
    Good point... I wasn't interested in transferring to Google PIM... I wanted to go to Web OS PIM... so, I ignored that solution... but I guess to Palm, those are now one in the same.

    ( Hmmmm.... I wonder if Palm moving all the long-time Palm users into Google PIM will ultimately be their downfall... after all, if you become a Google PIM fan rather than a Palm PIM fan, which phones are going to look most attractive: Google's Android or Palm's WebOS. In the long run, is the Palm Pre just bridging the Palm community over into Android? )
    That's kind of an interesting thought. However, I submit Google doesn't care whether you use Android or whether you use WebOS. They want you to use their services--Android was a means to make it easier to get smartphone users using Google services. So I doubt Google sees WebOS as competition, and I'm certain the numbers bear that out. Google does care whether you use WinMob or Android, though. It's Microsoft they're trying to kill, not Palm.

    Also, I think you misunderstand what it means to use Google PIM on your Pre. The Pre stores a copy of all your data locally and syncs it with Google. So you don't lose access to your stuff when you go offline. You can have a desktop app that does the same thing (Thunderbird or Outlook). It really works quite well, and the only difference between a Hotsync solution and syncing with Google is that a copy of your data resides on Google's servers. Oh, and you don't ever have to worry about your data being out of sync.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  14. PREtarted's Avatar
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by sacherjj View Post
    Export groups from Palm Desktop -> Import into Google Contacts.
    My calendar no pulls for Exchange at work and I just ported over personal stuff to a Google calendar.
    I've got two main problems with this, and it's the reason I must stick with classic contacts and run db6 on the classic calendar in the pre (essentially a Preo):

    1) Most of my thousands of contacts have notes attached to them. These notes are essential for me to operate. I cannot lose them. Many of those attached notes go back more than 10 years and contain hundreds of characters. To my knowledge there is no native or 3rd party app that takes the
    'palmOS-->weOS' migration of this valuable information into consideration.

    2) I don't know whether it is because I have so many calendar entries, or whether it is simply a severe, ridiculous, idiotic, pathetic limitation on google's part, but I cannot see any calendar entries further back than two months on the native webOS calendar. I can see them just fine on my PC, but I'm just scrolling through blank pages on my pda starting with the week of August 2nd to Aug 9th.
    So what that means is, without Classic, I cannot reference a previous client appointment if it occurred before August 10th. I cannot go back to check if some scheduled event actually happened. I cannot reference any type of calendar activity (other than "all-day events" - they seem to randomly show up if I wait long enough).
    Whether it's because Palm and Google didn't figure they had customers who needed to research past calendar info, or whether it's because the OS just can't handle the data makes no difference to me. Palm/Google's calendar's a useless P.O.S. (for me).

    The only solution available to me at this point is the laggy, buggy, crash-prone Classic until it's repaired, but even in it's pretarted condition Classic's better than the alternative.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Stradale View Post
    For those of us who want or NEED our data on our own computer (rather than in the Cloud), it appears that Palm has abandoned us... they are sending us to Google.
    Well, "abandoning" may be a bit dramatic . But, yeah, it's pretty clear that the main point of "synergy" and the focus of Web OS is syncing with "cloud" resources. Personally I think that's really the right way to go ... it's forward thinking instead of backwards ... but that's just my opinion.

    The thing I like about Google is that they do give you some pretty good options for exporting/importing your data. So, you can always keep a secondary copy on your own system (which is a pretty good idea). The downside currently is that it's only Contacts/Calendar, no option for Tasks/Memos. Not a big deal for me, but I know those are important for other folks.
  16. #16  
    I was able to migrate my data from Palm OS to Web OS. The solution provided by Palm did NOT work - I ended up with triplicates of all my calendar entrees, tens of thousands, which made the calendar app too slow to be useful.

    I then deleted my profile, and tried again, using Missing Sync. It worked great, though every few weeks the syncing seems to break, and I have to fiddle with it/reinstall to get it working.

    So, what did work was:
    1. export palm desktop into file.
    2. import file into ical (mac)
    3. installing missing sync and configuring to sync via wifi with my mac
    4. syncing via missing sync

    When it breaks, what usually works is to change the missing sync settings on the desktop to not sync anything, sync it once that way, then change it to sync contacts, sync it, then change it to sync a limited date range.

    I haven't tried the google route, though for visual voice mail, I'm thinking about it.
    KA1
    Visor Deluxe->Visor Prism/Digital Link->Treo 650->Treo 700p->Pre->GSM Unlocked Pre 2 (wifi only)->FrankenPre + Touchpad 32 ->+ Touchpad 4G ATT + ATT Pre3 + 64 White Touchpad... bliss.
  17. PREtarted's Avatar
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    #17  
    Not having a way to migrate and utilize palm OS memos and tasks in webOS is, as has been discussed ad nauseum, a major failure, but, just as important to thousands of us are the NOTES ATTACHED TO OUR PALMOS CONTACTS!
    Am I missing something? Is there some method of transferring those over to webOS that I missed? And I'm talking about my complete notes--not truncated, half-assed, "here's a few characters for ya" kinds of transfers.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by PREtarted View Post

    1) Most of my thousands of contacts have notes attached to them. These notes are essential for me to operate. I cannot lose them. Many of those attached notes go back more than 10 years and contain hundreds of characters. To my knowledge there is no native or 3rd party app that takes the 'palmOS-->weOS' migration of this valuable information into consideration.
    I also had many notes attached to my Palm OS contacts. They migrated over to the Pre without a problem when did my initial transfer in Web OS.
  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by davis.rob View Post
    But, yeah, it's pretty clear that the main point of "synergy" and the focus of Web OS is syncing with "cloud" resources. Personally I think that's really the right way to go ... it's forward thinking instead of backwards ... but that's just my opinion.
    I love Synergy's pulling together the cloud data with my on-computer data... being able to link them together... that's really cool. I have nothing against embracing the cloud.

    What I have issue with is your next sentiment... wanting to continue to use a local computer is NOT backward thinking. Its just not GOOGLE thinking.

    In the OLD days, the computer on your desk was a wimp... or even just a terminal... and you put all the data storage and computing on the monster server so that lots of people could share it.

    In the more recent days, our laptops (or even handhelds) have huge computing power and data capacity. There is NO NEED to offload your data onto a big server somewhere. The current push to go back to 60's & 70's style computing is that's the only way for Google to break Microsoft's grip on personal (client-side) software... and the way for Google to maximize ad income.

    So, the move away from local apps is the backward thinking in my mind... back a few decades. Apps should run locally, using your local data PLUS whatever data they need to access from the web... if the web is available, or what they've cached off the web if it is not available. That's the whole point of the move to Web Services... so that local apps can access web data as services, rather than only as web pages.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Stradale View Post
    ...
    In the more recent days, our laptops (or even handhelds) have huge computing power and data capacity. There is NO NEED to offload your data onto a big server somewhere. The current push to go back to 60's & 70's style computing is that's the only way for Google to break Microsoft's grip on personal (client-side) software... and the way for Google to maximize ad income.
    ...
    I see your point, but don't agree with it. I agree that's probably the business plan of Google, but the appeal isn't offloading the data to a giant server, it's the avialability of that data to multiple devices, with no cord. That (to me) is the appeal of cloud computing.

    I still have my Exchange server at home, and it still collects some system email for me (that I get on my Pre.) The primary reason I went with Google is that I don't have to pay for a spam filter, and I would have had to on my Exchange server.

    I'm less of an advocate of Google per se, but more of an advocate of having the data where multiple devices can access it and/or sync to it.

    My biggest complaint about the PalmOS Desktop synchronization was always that it handled multiple "mothership PC's" poorly. I could usually get it to work, but it was seldom reliable, and I had to go back and rebuild data (or remove duplicates) more times than I care to remember.
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