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  1. #161  
    I see. We've covered how Palm doesn't care about its long-time users. But what do they do well for the new ones? Anything in particular?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  2. tejoe's Avatar
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    #162  
    They provided an up to date platform onto which to build(name a cellphone company that had every feature you wanted/or needed with in the first year of a new os build)
    They made it reasonably accessible(general consensus is that its only behind the os X mobile(5 year os),and depending Andriod(2 year os))
    No real learning curve(try doing everything that this os can do on a win-mo with throwing the phone out the window)
    they made it entry-level and the everyday persons smartphone(having a smartphone used to be an exclusive club)
    To me that sounds like they did alot for the "new user" which demo's out to people that are coming from dumb phones and not power users like you and me
    old smartphone use is dead when an app limit is a bigger complaint then PIM functionality if you don't believe me check the forums
  3. #163  
    +1
    Blaize, Mistress of Verbosity



    Be nice until it's time to not be nice.--Dalton, "Roadhouse"
  4. #164  
    The app limit problem is interesting. It's not a trivial problem like many believe and I don't see Palm having a quick solution for it.

    But lets think about those new users who are complaining about the app limit. Shouldn't they really buy an iPhone? I get it that Palm wants part of the action but what does it have to offer to these people over the iPhone?

    You're saying that Palm had to make the phone more accessible to regular users and I think the cards UI is good for that. But is it a zero sum game with more business oriented users? I just don't see a clear relationship between targeting those feature phone converts, who don't even expect much in the way of PIM, and dumbing down or even just shipping buggy apps. Who benefits from less capability and lower quality? What was the upside here?
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I get it that Palm wants part of the action but what does it have to offer to these people over the iPhone?
    A real keyboard?
  6. #166  
    Sivan, you bring up a good issue as to the app limit problem and complaints about it. Surely, reasonable people would agree that the Pre needs a fix here. Or, must we all lump it and treasure the precious pre 'as is' without complaint and pretend its not broken?

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    The app limit problem is interesting. It's not a trivial problem like many believe and I don't see Palm having a quick solution for it.

    But lets think about those new users who are complaining about the app limit. Shouldn't they really buy an iPhone? I get it that Palm wants part of the action but what does it have to offer to these people over the iPhone?

    You're saying that Palm had to make the phone more accessible to regular users and I think the cards UI is good for that. But is it a zero sum game with more business oriented users? I just don't see a clear relationship between targeting those feature phone converts, who don't even expect much in the way of PIM, and dumbing down or even just shipping buggy apps. Who benefits from less capability and lower quality? What was the upside here?
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  7. #167  
    I personally am not bothered by it because I don't need to install every new novelty unless it's useful. And there aren't that many useful apps out there yet.

    But you have to wonder about those complaints. Can these complainers name the things they are not able to accomplish because of that limitation? I highly doubt it. And I highly doubt that they can be catered to in any meaningful way.

    The want apps for apps' sake, whatever these apps may be. How Palm is targeting this nebulous and primal need is a good question to ponder.
  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    ...
    Now that you mentioned Palm's resources, may we can talk about it some more without you throwing a hissy fit. Who is Palm trying to make happy with this product design, in your opinion?
    You know what? Probably not. Because you're one of those types of folks that do not recognize what they are doing when they do so.

    Go back and and re-read some of your nonsense. I think one of my first interactions with you was when you were on a thread about the media player. Your question was "are you some type of clown" because I dared disagree with you.

    Sorry guy, your posts neither reflect professionalism nor knowledge. You may have both, but you certainly don't display them when you misconstrue what folks say, call them a clown, etc.

    So, feel free to discuss anything you wish. And I will respond. I will typically respond at least at the same level as the person to whom I responding (I prefer to think a notch or two higher). But before you write someone off as "throwing a hissy fit", go back and look at your own posts.
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by eekinsman View Post
    Sivan, you bring up a good issue as to the app limit problem and complaints about it. Surely, reasonable people would agree that the Pre needs a fix here. Or, must we all lump it and treasure the precious pre 'as is' without complaint and pretend its not broken?
    And again, why must an attempt and reasonable discussion contain sarcastic nonsense like "treasure the precious Pre"?
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You know what? Probably not. Because you're one of those types of folks that do not recognize what they are doing when they do so.

    Go back and and re-read some of your nonsense. I think one of my first interactions with you was when you were on a thread about the media player. Your question was "are you some type of clown" because I dared disagree with you.

    Sorry guy, your posts neither reflect professionalism nor knowledge. You may have both, but you certainly don't display them when you misconstrue what folks say, call them a clown, etc.

    So, feel free to discuss anything you wish. And I will respond. I will typically respond at least at the same level as the person to whom I responding (I prefer to think a notch or two higher). But before you write someone off as "throwing a hissy fit", go back and look at your own posts.
    Okay, but you didn't answer my question.
  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    It'd have to be worthwhile to do the tweaks. And it is. That's the draw. Once you know how, then it becomes fun.
    It absolutely is BOTH....the tweeks are awesome and make the phone experience so much better but the patching experience is rewarding also.
  12. #172  
    shocking look who is still here arguing
  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Okay, but you didn't answer my question.
    Sorry you missed it. I'll repeat the question and answer for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Now that you mentioned Palm's resources, may we can talk about it some more without you throwing a hissy fit.
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You know what? Probably not.
    And, to the peanut gallary - no argument here, just answered his question.
  14. #174  
    Well, you said I should go ahead and discuss issues and you will respond to them, possibly two notches above my level but I'll manage. Here are a few questions to discuss:

    In the WSJ Mossberg interview with Rubinstein and McNamee, a couple of quotes are pertinent:
    Palm Inc. Executives Talk About the Pre - WSJ.com
    MR. MCNAMEE:The key thing was our CEO, Ed Colligan, had the insight that once the [BlackBerry] Pearl came out, the smart-phone business was going to be a consumer business, and Palm was not positioned for that and needed a major transformation, and thatís what we got involved in doing. The whole notion was you wanted to take that cultural legacy of innovation that created the Pilot and the Treo and then apply it to the next customer.
    Now, he's being pretty vague here. But he is discussing two important things. First is Colligan's realization that the smartphone business was going to be a consumer business. Without splittling hairs, what does he mean? Was Palm going to bring smartphones to the consumer by making it more attractive and easier to use, or was Palm done with smartphones and was moving to what David Pogue likes to call app phones? It's hard to tell.

    The second point is taking the culture of innovation that produced the Pilot and the Treo and apply it to the next customer. Again, vague. Does he mean that Palm will move from one customer to the next, i.e. from business users to consumers, or simply expand its target audience to include both?

    And lastly:

    MS. SWISHER:Whom do you consider your customers? Is there a demographic you are aiming for?

    MR. MCNAMEE:People who are really busy. People who use the Web a lot.
    I think the second part, the web, is covered. But what are "people who are really busy"? Don't they need responsive and reliable calendar and tasks apps? Or in what other sense are they busy?

    The common refrain here in response to complaints about PIM apps is that Palm has to focus on other things. But it's not clear what those are, and why one area of focus requires neglect of the other.

    I personally resent the thought that the phone must be made less capable in order for Palm to succeed, and I can't see what are those other areas that Palm needs to shift resources to instead. What are they and how are they manifested in the Pre? I don't see much that's outstanding and is a result of Palm's redirected efforts. I think the argument about redirecting efforts toward more important areas doesn't reflect reality. I don't see results.

    And one more thought about the existing PIM apps. Why do we now have sticky notes instead of simply Memos? Why are the Tasks and Calendar apps full of animations when performance is hurting? If the new customer doesn't care about PIM, why has PIM been made so toy-like? Couldn't it have been left out of this consumer revision?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    ...
    In the WSJ Mossberg interview with Rubinstein and McNamee, a couple of quotes are pertinent:
    Palm Inc. Executives Talk About the Pre - WSJ.com
    ...
    I'd attribute the above to the fact that the interview was with an investor, not with the CEO. The same investor that, after being reined it a bit by Palm, said "It's going to have alien technology".

    Investors have vision, CEOs live in the real world.

    It's an important issue to note that the investors are not the company.
  16. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    ...
    I personally resent the thought that the phone must be made less capable in order for Palm to succeed, and I can't see what are those other areas that Palm needs to shift resources to instead.
    ...
    You are arguing from an incorrect assumption. To say that the phone "must be made less capable" is to presume that the phone previously had more capabilities.

    It did not. It is a brand new platform. Everything it does is new. Everything has to be added. Nobody wrote part of the OS, then said "Hey, let's pull that out". Instead, every feature must be built.

    It's been out six months. I'm going with the assumption that we will continue to see it improve. It may not be the improvements you want, it may not be the improvements I want, but you can be sure it will be the improvements that Palm decides fits what they want.

    If/when their "wants" diverge enough from mine, I'll look for something better. If I can find it, I'll jump. If I can't, I'll keep using the best I can find, and wait. It's pretty simple.

    I understand you have a differnt view, but me having a different view doesn't make me a "a clown", doesn't mean I'm "throwing a hissy fit", doesn't mean that I "lack authority" (any more than anyone else, that is), doesn't mean that my usage of the calendar is "limited" to a "non business" environment or "not interacting with people", doesn't mean that I've claimed it's "not good for business, not good for games, not good for apps", doesn't mean that I "don't use the calendar", doesn't mean ... well, I think you get the picture. These are all personal accusations/assertions that you've made that were patently false.

    Now, I realize you may consider pointing out what you've said "throwing a hissy fit", but it's not. It's me coming to the realization that there is a serious lack of ability (or maybe just desire) on your part to discuss an issue without making personal attacks/accusations/assertions/whatever when doing so.

    How about we leave it at - I think Palm is doing a great job, especially compared to the spectacular failure that most had anticpated for them about this time last year, and you apparently feel differently.
  17. sookibong's Avatar
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    #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    But there is a contingency of old time Palm users who expect the same level of functionality available on previous Palm OS devices.
    And so these old time users all kept the phone even after 30 days revealed this same level of functionality didn't exist? Look, it wouldn't be the dumbest thing anyone has done, but it would still make they themselves primarily responsible for their dissatisfaction with their phone. And then of course it's all too easy to redirect their anger at themselves toward the company that cursed them with a "bad phone".

    These people either need to become savvier, less impulsive consumers or (for those like me who often aren't) accept that they sometimes will gamble and lose.
  18. #178  
    This is not about me. I provided quotes and a few points for discussion about whether there is a coherent plan that Palm is following.

    I asked for a clear definition of who Palm's customers are and how to explain the state of webOS, the apps and the devices based on it.

    To me it seems that Palm doesn't have a clear idea who their customers are, nor are they executing according to a master plan that makes sense only to a select few.
    Last edited by sivan; 12/02/2009 at 11:47 AM.
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    And again, why must an attempt and reasonable discussion contain sarcastic nonsense like "treasure the precious Pre"?
    Hey you didn't call me a name or insult me Now we're gettin somewhere. Seriously man, I confess, I really do consider this device precious and a treasure. If my wife, kids, co-workers anyone who knows me were to weigh in, they'd tell you that about me in a second. So, that in itself if not meant as a shot across your bow.

    Where I vehemently disagree with some, especially you, is that the Pre, and by extension Palm could not use some major fixes on the calender, lag, date navigation and the promised universal search. So:

    1. Just as the front page editorials of this very site occasionally proclaims the shortcomings of Palm, so to may I and others and without fear of insults and name calling. To be sure, we should do so without silly proclamations that "palm sucks" "I'm getting a Droid" "Why I'm switching to ipohone". You're criticism of those posts are well taken by me, and I don't think I've ever been guilty of such posts.

    2. I respect that the calender works for you. If you cant tolerate threads which have the opposite view, why read them?

    3. I don't think Palm "owes" me anything, but that wont stop me from wanting better from Palm. And I don't care really if it comes from Palm or 3rd party developer. But I'll tell you this, if I were a developer, I'd surely read these forums and see just what gaps I could fill.

    4. Ok Herbert, was this post of mine a good attempt at reasonable discussion? I did try. How bout you?

    eek
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  20. #180  
    I'm also not personally bothered, YET, by the app limit. But I'm for all for any pre owner using this forum to complain and loudly for a fix. Even if their 30 days is up.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I personally am not bothered by it because I don't need to install every new novelty unless it's useful. And there aren't that many useful apps out there yet.

    But you have to wonder about those complaints. Can these complainers name the things they are not able to accomplish because of that limitation? I highly doubt it. And I highly doubt that they can be catered to in any meaningful way.

    The want apps for apps' sake, whatever these apps may be. How Palm is targeting this nebulous and primal need is a good question to ponder.
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
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