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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    ...
    And Palm is not required to reinvent PIM all over again so I don't buy the "well, they took a long time to figure it out in the last OS, so it will take a long time again". Problem already solved, the implementation is missing/crippled/neglected.
    How so? Do they have access to the original programmers? Are they allowed to reuse the code that they obtained (through licenses) from third party developers? Are they allowed to emulate the original look and feel.

    It's easy to write on a forum about how easy all of this is.

    If the implementation is "missing/crippled/neglected" (for you), the solution is amazingly simple, get something that isn't!!
  2. #82  
    I agree those who are upset about the lack of video or the lack of apps do not have much of an argument although those feautures were hinted towards there was no actual release date. I think the point of this thread was missed by many the OP was simply tring to find out where people stood on patching, if you fall between the 2 categories than simply reply both.

    obviously some are dissappointed with the lack of simple features some are not I think (and again this is just in my opinion) that expecting a phone to have blinking notifications in 2009 is similar to expecting a car to have blinking notifications for turn signals, I think that turning up the treble on your stereo system should be seperated from turning up the bass. I feel that to say it is a misconception to think that expecting these miscues to be corrected wthin 6 months is a bit of a stretch. These are what I mean by basic features, not video cameras and apps. I stayed with palm because I have faith in them and....lol because the Htc touch was the only other phone sprint had in june with a quality web browser which was my #1 need in a phone.

    I am not here to say who is right and who is wrong I just want for both sides to be a little more open minded and to quit bickering like children!
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    How so? Do they have access to the original programmers? Are they allowed to reuse the code that they obtained (through licenses) from third party developers? Are they allowed to emulate the original look and feel.
    Another favorite canard of yours: Palm can't recreate the Palm OS calendar because of licensing issues. This is pure speculation. And besides, where is the search feature? Is searching a calendar subject to patents and licensing agreements? How about the lag, is the lag-elimination algorithm someone else's intellectual property now?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    No, actually it's not "rude". That's the very reason the forum owners provided the quote capability - to provide context (notice there's a link to the original quote, for anyone that wants to use it)

    I'm surprised that you now say you "love this phone for its potential and are just a little dissappointed with palm because in this day in age we did not expect to buy a 3 year old iphone."

    First of all, that bit of tripe assumes that you bought a 3 year old iphone. If you did, you should have taken it back before it became a 3 year and 30 day old phone!!!, especially in light of the fact that you've continually proclaimed that you're replacing it as soon as your contract is up.

    The point of those "obsessive palm supporters" (only as "obsessive" as the Palm detractors with whom they argue) is that you should have taken it back within that 30 days. Instead, you kept it, and then get on here and berate those that are happy with what they bought. Those that truly do see "the potential".

    BTW, when you use phrases such as "obsessive palm supporters", are you not trying to discredit their views and opinions?

    Just sayin'...
    I never said any names or called anybody out there are trolls on this site and there are obsessive palm supporters! I think the way this was phrased would not offend anybody except for those certain losers who spend 10 hours a day on a forum trolling the threads looking to start fights with every person who finds a flaw in their precious little phone.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Another favorite canard of yours: Palm can't recreate the Palm OS calendar because of licensing issues. This is pure speculation. And besides, where is the search feature? Is searching a calendar subject to patents and licensing agreements? How about the lag, is the lag-elimination algorithm someone else's intellectual property now?
    Of course it's speculation (in part) - which is why I asked the question (rhetorically).

    The original PIM, I can't speak to. I know for sure though, that there are intellectual properties involved with the adds from Pimlico. That is not speculartion, Palm announced it was a licensed product from Pimlico. You don't have to license something for which there are no intellectual rights. Did that license extend to the Pre? Well, my answer to that is "speculation", but it's a pretty eductated guess that that answer is no.

    Just about everything on the board is "speculation", but if you want to bash with no responses, I suggest you try some other foums.

    As to the search feature - I don't know. I never needed a search feature except for a busy search, and I never had that on the Treo.

    However, if it were as important to me as it seems to be for you, I'd be finding out, or I'd be using another device.

    The lag - not bothered by it. But, if I were, I'd probably be not be using the device because ... yeah you guessed it - I'd be using a device that didn't have it...
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    I never said any names or called anybody out there are trolls on this site and there are obsessive palm supporters! I think the way this was phrased would not offend anybody except for those certain losers who spend 10 hours a day on a forum trolling the threads looking to start fights with every person who finds a flaw in their precious little phone.
    Trolls, losers, 10 hours a day on ther forum, fights... Yeah, you sound like a pretty reasonable, open sort.

    But, I ask again, whether you are naming names or not, by your use of those phrases, are you not trying to discredit what they say or are doing?

    (It's really a pretty simple question...)
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Of course it's speculation (in part) - which is why I asked the question (rhetorically).

    The original PIM, I can't speak to. I know for sure though, that there are intellectual properties involved with the adds from Pimlico. That is not speculartion, Palm announced it was a licensed product from Pimlico. You don't have to license something for which there are no intellectual rights. Did that license extend to the Pre? Well, my answer to that is "speculation", but it's a pretty eductated guess that that answer is no.
    Those speculations are really digging for the most implausible tangents to derail the thread into nonsense.

    As to the search feature - I don't know. I never needed a search feature except for a busy search, and I never had that on the Treo.
    You don't know if the search feature is important? Is there anything you do know that's missing from the Pre? Why did you write to Pimlico if you don't know of anything missing?

    The lag - not bothered by it.
    Right, but we covered this scenario ad nauseum. It doesn't bother you because your calendar needs don't involve interacting with people.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  8. #88  
    to answer to the post, I got this phone fully knowing it lack key features cause I researched it for 2 months before I got it. I did the same thing with my moto q9c. But its just a sense of accomplishment being able to go in and change things and learn new things
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Those speculations are really digging for the most implausible tangents to derail the thread into nonsense.
    Yeah, nothing like noting that they probably can't copy what they had before to run off on a tangent of why they don't copy what they had before. You're funny!

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    You don't know if the search feature is important? Is there anything you do know that's missing from the Pre? Why did you write to Pimlico if you don't know of anything missing?
    Past experience. I wrote Pimlical because I knew he had written the best interface for a PIM I'd ever used. It was not because of anything the Pre was lacking, since I began writing him before the Pre was released. As to the search feature, I never used it on the Treo, I don't think it even had one (but I might be mistaken on that).

    There were two things that originally attracted me to DateBK (I believe it was version 3 at the time). Colorizing events and incorporating tasks into the calendar view.

    The former is handled (though not directly by Palm, but then, the original PIM didn't "handle" this either) by having multiple calendars. Frankly, I prefer the current method over the old.

    That latter, I'd still like to see. I don't fault Palm in not providing it though, it's just what they chose to do. I suspect that eventually Agenda, or something similar, will incorporate that functionality into their program.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Right, but we covered this scenario ad nauseum. It doesn't bother you because your calendar needs don't involve interacting with people.
    And, just like the thread you quoted earlier in this one, you simply make things up as you go (dare I say "lie??") You queried me repeatedly, and confirmed that I was indeed "interacting with people". For someone who wants to summarize other people's thoughts and opinions, you certainly seem to miss important details.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Yeah, nothing like noting that they probably can't copy what they had before to run off on a tangent of why they don't copy what they had before. You're funny!
    The problems with the calendar, aside from various bugs people reported, have to do with usability and performance. There's nothing to copy from DateBk that would address those. You were saying that just as it took Palm a long time and help from 3rd parties to offer a good PIM device, so it will now, starting from scratch. But we are in the year 2009, not 1991. Digital calendars are nothing new, widgets to enter date and time are not revolutionary concepts. What does DateBk, licensing or whatever have to do with the current calendar? There's a calendar on every mobile phone. What does DateBk have to do with the multitude of calendars out there? Why can't Palm make one that works as well as the one on Palm OS?

    Again, not talking about reusing widgets (touch interface is different), or reusing the code (different language and API). The calendar today animates and tries to be pretty instead of being efficient. That is the main problem, and it is a problem with Palm's way of thinking. Palm built organizers for efficiency, now appearance is more important. That change was uncalled for.

    Past experience. I wrote Pimlical because I knew he had written the best interface for a PIM I'd ever used. It was not because of anything the Pre was lacking, since I began writing him before the Pre was released. As to the search feature, I never used it on the Treo, I don't think it even had one (but I might be mistaken on that).

    There were two things that originally attracted me to DateBK (I believe it was version 3 at the time). Colorizing events and incorporating tasks into the calendar view.

    The former is handled (though not directly by Palm, but then, the original PIM didn't "handle" this either) by having multiple calendars. Frankly, I prefer the current method over the old.

    That latter, I'd still like to see. I don't fault Palm in not providing it though, it's just what they chose to do. I suspect that eventually Agenda, or something similar, will incorporate that functionality into their program.
    You keep dismissing the old Palm OS calendar as missing this or that feature in compare to DateBk, but show complete understanding for missing features in the current calendar, as just what Palm chose to do. Why is it okay that the calendar is missing these features now, whereas before it was inferior?

    And, just like the thread you quoted earlier in this one, you simply make things up as you go (dare I say "lie??") You queried me repeatedly, and confirmed that I was indeed "interacting with people". For someone who wants to summarize other people's thoughts and opinions, you certainly seem to miss important details.
    But it is not possible to use the Pre calendar when coordinating with people in realtime. Every operation takes too long. You said so yourself:

    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I probably would enter most of my appointments from my desktop calendars were it not for QuickEvent
    So who's lying? You avoid the calendar yourself because it's too slow.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  11. Xyg
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    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    How so? Do they have access to the original programmers? Are they allowed to reuse the code that they obtained (through licenses) from third party developers? Are they allowed to emulate the original look and feel.

    It's easy to write on a forum about how easy all of this is.

    If the implementation is "missing/crippled/neglected" (for you), the solution is amazingly simple, get something that isn't!!
    From what I recall, Palm has rights to the source code per their $44 million deal with ACCESS. They can modify the licensed software as needed and not pay royalties to ACCESS.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    The problems with the calendar, aside from various bugs people reported, have to do with usability and performance. There's nothing to copy from DateBk that would address those. You were saying that just as it took Palm a long time and help from 3rd parties to offer a good PIM device, so it will now, starting from scratch. But we are in the year 2009, not 1991. Digital calendars are nothing new, widgets to enter date and time are not revolutionary concepts. What does DateBk, licensing or whatever have to do with the current calendar? There's a calendar on every mobile phone. What does DateBk have to do with the multitude of calendars out there? Why can't Palm make one that works as well as the one on Palm OS?
    My point is that this Palm did not write the software you are talking about. And, you keep going back to features you want, and proclaim those as a deficiency in the Pre. Your desire doesn't make it a requirement. My point about third party development is that if the demand for those features are truly there, they will (likely) be filled, and then folks will be able to choose what they need, instead of an OS filled with stuff that may not be what others need.

    My point was never about "how long" it too, but more about the fact that you keep talking about Palm past experience, which doesn't apply here. Palm originally put out a device and then they and others filled in the stuff that was missing.

    It would be foolish of them to assume that those same things that people wanted of a non-internet connected device designed 12 years ago are the same things they desire now.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    You keep dismissing the old Palm OS calendar as missing this or that feature in compare to DateBk, but show complete understanding for missing features in the current calendar, as just what Palm chose to do. Why is it okay that the calendar is missing these features now, whereas before it was inferior?
    I had no complaint about Palm's "inferior" product back then. It's "inferior" only in that it didn't fulfill what I wanted, so I bought the product that did what I wanted. For many, the basic Palm PIM was fine the way it was.

    You are demanding that Palm give you what you want, and that they are somehow failing when they don't do so. I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    But it is not possible to use the Pre calendar when coordinating with people in realtime. Every operation takes too long. You said so yourself:
    ...
    So who's lying? You avoid the calendar yourself because it's too slow.
    That wasn't your claim. You said my "calendar needs" didn't involve interacting with other people. They do. I use Quick Event to enter events when doing so.

    On my preveious Palm devices, I never used the built in PIM to enter events real time - I used DateBK. That's the point I keep trying to make. You're crying that Palm should give you what you want, just as they've done in the past - except "they" didn't. Others did. They will again, but it does take time (and you might have to pay for it).
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    From what I recall, Palm has rights to the source code per their $44 million deal with ACCESS. They can modify the licensed software as needed and not pay royalties to ACCESS.
    I'm not 100% sure of the details, but I think we're talking about different things here.

    With the introduction of the Treo 600, Palm licensed code from Pimlico that introduced what was essentially a "DateBK Lite". I suspect (and it is conjecture, but then most of what's on this forum is conjecture) that license extends to Access, but does not extend to other platforms.
  14. #94  
    Dang. I shouldn't have traveled for thanksgiving. I missed a lot of fun in this thread. Ultimately I definitely, definitely, agree with berd. bpdamas' analogy is the best. Wait. What? (see what I did there)

    In all of this I realized some things. Palm does not owe me anything. No software updates, no apps, no sdk, nothing. If these things don't come, would I be mad? You bet. Would I complain about it? No way. They never promised me anything. Some of you are acting like they actually did promise you something. I can't imagine they did. Now, if they don't deliver these things then their fate as a company is numbered. However, I really think most of the complainers really like the phone and its potential, they just cannot be patient without complaining. Doesn't make sense to me but to each their own.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    As to the search feature - I don't know...The lag - not bothered by it.
    Both bother you enough to not use the Calendar. You load Agenda with 30 days so you can search through it, and you use Quick Event so you can enter data fast. The original argument was about you denying problems with the Calendar. These two apps are very nice but I need global search and I don't want to launch and manage two apps when I need to work with the calendar.

    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    My point is that this Palm did not write the software you are talking about. And, you keep going back to features you want, and proclaim those as a deficiency in the Pre. Your desire doesn't make it a requirement. My point about third party development is that if the demand for those features are truly there, they will (likely) be filled, and then folks will be able to choose what they need, instead of an OS filled with stuff that may not be what others need.
    I did not say it was my desire and hence a requirement. We started from the old "why did you buy and keep the device past the 30 days". You asked what I was expecting from Palm when buying the Pre, and I replied that I expected the same focus on PIM as it always has been. They are still using the Palm brand name and the company was founded around making PDAs, which were designed to be functional and responsive. There is nothing controversial about this.

    Now, had Palm come out and said, we're done with the PDA stuff there's no money in it, then fine. But not only do they use the Palm name, they advertise their current products as the evolution of what they've always done, i.e. a device for busy people.

    So, what's "busy"? It's possible that Palm means someone who's busy organizing playlists in iTunes or switching between Bejeweled to YouTube while at the same time texting and checking Facebook updates. A more traditional definition of busy means the activity Palm used to focus on, managing calendars, contacts, email, tasks etc. One could also call it the gap between the iPhone and the BlackBerry. There's an ambiguity here, which may help Palm get past analyst's questions, but possibly also hurt focus in product design.

    Recall this Mossberg interview with Rubinstein and McNamee:

    Palm Inc. Executives Talk About the Pre - WSJ.com

    MR. MCNAMEE:The key thing was our CEO, Ed Colligan, had the insight that once the [BlackBerry] Pearl came out, the smart-phone business was going to be a consumer business, and Palm was not positioned for that and needed a major transformation, and that’s what we got involved in doing. The whole notion was you wanted to take that cultural legacy of innovation that created the Pilot and the Treo and then apply it to the next customer.
    On the other hand you have the pitch to business users:

    Palm ® webOS ™ Phones for Business : Palm USA

    Palm® webOS™ phone let you tackle your entire workday like never before. Keep multiple applications open and move back and forth between business and life.1 View your work and personal calendars layered together or separately. See your business and personal contacts in one place. And stay in touch with customers, colleagues, or anyone else with email, messaging, and advanced calling features like three-way conferencing and call forwarding.
    This reads like the perfect evolution of Palm OS, a multitasking and connected PDA.

    So in between this "consumerization" of the product, and evolution to real-time, multitasking and cloud connected PDA, what is the Pre actually doing?

    Technically, the two ends aren't mutually exclusive, but they also have distinct conflicts. A fast, responsive and multitasking device can serve both target audiences, and Palm seems to have attempted this albeit with some grotesque results. For instance, webOS syncs in real-time with the cloud, but is sluggish and unresponsive to user input. A lot of this is due to excessive animation and pretty designs.

    We have the remmaking of Memos as sticky notes and the oversimplification of Calendar and Tasks and the lack of global search function. All of which just take away from business use for no good reason.

    There is a tension here between appealing to consumers with colors, animations and dumbed down features, and serving business needs. Palm is managing this badly.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  16.    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post

    There is a tension here between appealing to consumers with colors, animations and dumbed down features, and serving business needs. Palm is managing this badly.
    The browser is nice and switching between open cards feels natural (except when it lags) -- but; this phone for a heavy, real-world business type? No. It's not doing the job, and time waiting for serious functionality is money wasting. Time is money. The kids can have their Pixi's, nothing wrong with that. But the Pre was supposed to be the kingpin of it's peers. Six months in the technology world is forever.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 11/26/2009 at 09:10 PM.
  17.    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by bpdamas View Post
    Dang. I shouldn't have traveled for thanksgiving. I missed a lot of fun in this thread. Ultimately I definitely, definitely, agree with berd. bpdamas' analogy is the best. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Now, if they don't deliver these things then their fate as a company is numbered..
    #1: I still like my analogy best.
    #2: You see? Even you acknowledge that this has to be taken care of.
    -----------
    *** My Analogy (if u missed it)
    - If this is how the world runs, then i could open up a barber shop and tell people to pay ME, but they will have to either cut their own hair, or look outside the door for somebody else to walk in to cut it for them but still pay me anyway.
    (This, in no way, is to knock the homebrew devs. I respect that ur only trying to help us.)
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 11/26/2009 at 02:46 PM.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    #1: I still like my analogy best.
    #2: You see? Even you acknowledge that this has to be taken care of.
    -----------
    *** My Analogy (if u missed it)
    - If this is how the world runs, then i could open up a barber shop and tell people to pay ME, but they will have to either cut their own hair, or look outside the door for somebody else to walk in to cut it for them but still pay me anyway.
    (This, in no way, is to knock the homebrew devs. I respect that ur only trying to help us.)
    I absolutely see nothing wrong with your style of business in this analogy as long as you allow me to return my haircut within the first 30 days.

    Heck, maybe I will even go to your barbershop. Let's say somebody else walks in and cuts my hair perfectly for free (homebrew). If I like it enough, I might even continue to come in and pay you to get my hair cut by somebody else. One piece of advice though if you do start this barbershop; make it easy for the people from the webos-internals team to get to your shop. If you do that, I might be a regular customer.
  19. #99  
    Since when, and by whose order, did this site become a place where only pro palm and pre friendly content is acceptable? I love this device and webOS, but its shortcomings and flaws need to be fixed or palm will not flourish.The calender lag is my big complaint. But, the mantra of return it within 30 days or forever hold your peace has been (thankfully) rejected by the writers on the front page of this site (see Kessler's editorials). Palm monitors this site. I met a palm rep was at a sprint store and we talked specifically about precentral. I'd rather tolerate complaints, even ones I personally view as unfounded or unreasonable. Let Palm never slip again into the abyss of mediocrity. A vocal user base is good. If you cant bare to read critical posts why not skip them?
    Last edited by eekinsman; 11/26/2009 at 03:34 PM.
    PalmOS Treos: 90/300/600/650/700/755/launch day Pre minus/ Evo/Epic
  20. Andreas's Avatar
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    #100  
    We are here because we love the device and when we complain its out of frustration caused by some decision by Palm that we dont really understand or just because things aint working like we want them too.

    Its not because we are haters, we want Palm to succed (spelling?) and take over the world. If they dont im pretty sure we will all be assimilated....
    Treo 180 270 600 650 Centro Pre Pr3 tPad tPad4G
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