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  1. #261  
    I bought the Pre originally because I have always been a Palm fan, and the iPhone was just too unwieldy to handle for my liking.

    The ability to tweak and explore in Linux and add in cool community stuff is just icing on the cake.
  2.    #262  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    And, of course there were so many phones 7-10 years ago that does all of the things the Pre does now.

    I suspect you can't name any of them though...
    C'mon, Herb. You know and i know (and everybody else with this phone knows) what i'm talking about. You're just being coy about it.
  3. #263  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Nope, that's about like saying "You forgot the group of redheads"

    By that, I mean that the "Group 3" has nothing to do with the other groups mentioned. You can be in "Group 3", and still be in either group.

    Personally, I don't care what it "competes" with, as long as it does what I need it to do. If I was looking for the device that was selling the most, I'd have gone with something else.

    Howeve, the truth is, it is competing, and very nicely. At least, nicely enough to have avoided bankruptcy.
    and what is the one thing that the Pre does for you that can be offered by no other phone?

    what makes the Pre so special?

    what makes it stand out from other devices?

    The cloud? not looking like it.

    Itunes sync? looking grim.

    App selection? not a chance.

    camera? not looking so great.

    calendar? nope.

    multitasking? nope droid can do it and even more importantly TWEAKED iphones are now doing it.

    web browser? good but does not blow any other platform away.

    key board? maybe but at the cost of build quality.

    storage? 8gb non expandable.

    screen? very nice screen but again does not make the phone stand out.

    tweaks/patches? nope all phones have these they are just listed under the phones preference settings.

    Am I saying palm is destined to fail? no but I am saying they are likely to have failed the early adopters, in 6 months every Pre owner will be eligible for an upgrade. Honestly, Palm you have 6 months to convince your early adopters to not jump to the newest shiniest device.
  4. #264  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Even a phone is a natural extension of having an address book on your device, which is a core function of a PDA. I remember seeing this, as well as the reviews and thinking, finally. Just dialing the contact you referenced in your calendar or emailed with. It made perfect sense for a PDA to grow a phone and be able to access email.
    The exact same thing could be said of the original digital address books - our computers. It would have/should have been a natural extension to have that PC dial the phone that was sitting next to it, and there was even software introduced that did that - it just never caught on widely. Timing is part of "natural extension"

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    The iPhone is really the first convergence device, a different mythological beast.
    Sorry, I disagree. The iPhone took it to a different level, but it backstepped on a lot of the "core pieces" to be able to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    And Palm could do this, if it had its own mature OS with the same capabilities as OS X. Apple brought its desktop OS to the device, Palm didn't. So where should Palm start from?
    Excatly. No desktop to emulate. Thus, they had to start something new. And it had to be something designed for a smartphone, not just adapted. I think they've done a good job of that, for a start.


    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    They don't have the same foundation, so Palm has to economize and has to focus instead of targetting everyone and doing everything.
    ...
    I'm saying it should start with doing one thing very well, and expand on the others gradually. First have a well defined product, that incidentally doesn't force users to compromise much on non-core functionality. And Palm came quite close, they just got bogged down in aesthetics.
    Except they can't. It's too much of a gamble. If they pick the wrong one, and it doesn't catch on, they're out of business.
  5. #265  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    C'mon, Herb. You know and i know (and everybody else with this phone knows) what i'm talking about. You're just being coy about it.
    Actually, I'm just pointing out the hyperbolic nature of these discussion. And that's how the silliness begins.

    Of course you didn't really mean it went back 7-10 years... you just exaggerated like that because the actual facts don't support your argument well enough.
  6. #266  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    and what is the one thing that the Pre does for you that can be offered by no other phone?

    what makes the Pre so special?

    what makes it stand out from other devices?

    The cloud? not looking like it.

    Itunes sync? looking grim.

    App selection? not a chance.

    camera? not looking so great.

    calendar? nope.

    multitasking? nope droid can do it and even more importantly TWEAKED iphones are now doing it.

    web browser? good but does not blow any other platform away.

    key board? maybe but at the cost of build quality.

    storage? 8gb non expandable.

    screen? very nice screen but again does not make the phone stand out.

    tweaks/patches? nope all phones have these they are just listed under the phones preference settings.

    Am I saying palm is destined to fail? no but I am saying they are likely to have failed the early adopters, in 6 months every Pre owner will be eligible for an upgrade. Honestly, Palm you have 6 months to convince your early adopters to not jump to the newest shiniest device.
    Am I saying palm is destined to fail? no...
    I have yet to see you post something positive about Palm or the Pre, and even if you have, they are so few and far between as to make this quote laughable.

    Honestly, Palm you have 6 months to convince your early adopters to not jump to the newest shiniest device.
    It has been 6 months, and Palm is still selling phones. They will likely still be selling phone in 6 more months when the Pre2 comes out. 6 months does not make or break a company.

    tweaks/patches?
    Name one more phone out there that makes it that easy to make your phone yours, and don't tell me Android... open source does not mean open phone.

    The cloud?

    All smartphones use the cloud now to some extent, but Palm managed to make it really easy to do so. Palm lost some cloud data... so what? Back up your data!!!!

    Itunes sync?
    bah.... you can still use Itunes. Just not the newest version that has features that only Ipods use anyway...

    App selection?
    50-100 new apps every week now.... 6 month old platform. Win.

    camera?
    The camera on this phone is better than just about any cell phone camera out there...

    calendar?
    Win. I use the calendar for what I use it for. It works for me, and is easy for me.

    multitasking?
    Nobody multitasks like the Pre. Droid fakes it, and Iphone really fakes it.

    web browser?
    This browser will have flash before the Iphone, which is the only browser to date better than the Pre.

    key board?
    No problems with the keyboard or build quality. Win for me, but an area for improvement none the less.

    storage?
    Can't say that I have reached the 8 gb anyway.


    Overall, the Pre is a success because it served to start Palm's new direction. You are too concerned with your own supposed metrics to see that Palm is doing it their own way. They have some things to accomplish, sure, but they are still progressing. Much like the Apple of the 90's. It's not that you lead in sales, but innovation.
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  7. #267  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    and what is the one thing that the Pre does for you that can be offered by no other phone?

    what makes the Pre so special?

    what makes it stand out from other devices?

    The cloud? not looking like it.

    Itunes sync? looking grim.

    App selection? not a chance.

    camera? not looking so great.

    calendar? nope.

    multitasking? nope droid can do it and even more importantly TWEAKED iphones are now doing it.

    web browser? good but does not blow any other platform away.

    key board? maybe but at the cost of build quality.

    storage? 8gb non expandable.

    screen? very nice screen but again does not make the phone stand out.

    tweaks/patches? nope all phones have these they are just listed under the phones preference settings.

    Am I saying palm is destined to fail? no but I am saying they are likely to have failed the early adopters, in 6 months every Pre owner will be eligible for an upgrade. Honestly, Palm you have 6 months to convince your early adopters to not jump to the newest shiniest device.
    Good lord man, then why'd you buy it?

    I have a GMC Envoy. It's a vehichle that suits me very well. There are a lot of things that it does that many other vehicles can't do (it pulls my 25' sailboat much better than my GoldWing does). At the same time, I could find another vehicle that does everything it does about as well.

    So, why did I pick it over all of the others?

    Because I liked it better. That's all the reason I need.

    The Palm doesn't have to be better at everything in the world out there. What it does have to is be good enough, and desired enough, to keep Palm in business.

    It's doing that.

    You're also making the mistake of believing that those that may "jump ship" after their initial year are up are the end all be all of the market. They aren't. If Palm comes out with something better 2 months after that, or even 4 months, there will be others ready to jump from what they have, as well as those that are new to the market.
  8. #268  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypetey View Post
    I have yet to see you post something positive about Palm or the Pre, and even if you have, they are so few and far between as to make this quote laughable.
    Thank You!!!!
    Unfortunately, now he's likely to start complaining about you to the moder.... oh wait... nevermind....
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypetey View Post
    Overall, the Pre is a success because it served to start Palm's new direction. You are too concerned with your own supposed metrics to see that Palm is doing it their own way. They have some things to accomplish, sure, but they are still progressing. Much like the Apple of the 90's. It's not that you lead in sales, but innovation.
    Exactly!!!
  9. #269  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Except they can't. It's too much of a gamble. If they pick the wrong one, and it doesn't catch on, they're out of business.
    Having a product that fails to make an impression in any particular area could yield the same results.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  10. gbp
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    #270  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post

    A convergence device on the scale of the iPhone, a first back in 2007, didn't need to target much. It just blew people's minds away.
    I agree iPhone blew people's minds away. At least it blew my mind away with browser and Youtube.

    All APPLE did was perfecting the features of existing phones at that time.

    So back in 2007 , can you argue that Pocket IE on WinMo is better than Mobile Safari on iPhone because it doesn't to cut and paste ? or saving images ? (you can argue , buy no one buys it).

    So back on topic , iPhone with multi touch browser had enough buyers willing to forgive APPLE for some basic features.
    They didn't have tweaks then.
    They waited patiently for the eco system to evolve over next two years.

    Objectively speaking iPhone had only one killer feature i.e. multi touch browser. The rest of the features were available on other phones , but were much improved on iPhone.

    I can see the parallels , Pre has one killer feature , the "Visual Muti Tasking".
    The rest of the features are either improved over some phones or simply missing.

    At this point , arguing over the cheap hardware is the acceptable.
    PALM dropped the ball on hardware.
    The rest ( i.e. WebOS and features .... ) will only get better over time.
  11. gbp
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    #271  
    Most importantly ,
    PALM needed to release Pre for the money (God , folks just don't understand that PALM is a bankruptcy candidate).

    Now PALM started making money. Their stock is up.
    They got more investment. They released another phone.

    We shall see on Dec 17th the status of their sales.
  12. #272  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    I agree iPhone blew people's minds away. At least it blew my mind away with browser and Youtube.

    All APPLE did was perfecting the features of existing phones at that time.

    So back in 2007 , can you argue that Pocket IE on WinMo is better than Mobile Safari on iPhone because it doesn't to cut and paste ? or saving images ? (you can argue , buy no one buys it).

    So back on topic , iPhone with multi touch browser had enough buyers willing to forgive APPLE for some basic features.
    They didn't have tweaks then.
    They waited patiently for the eco system to evolve over next two years.

    Objectively speaking iPhone had only one killer feature i.e. multi touch browser. The rest of the features were available on other phones , but were much improved on iPhone.

    I can see the parallels , Pre has one killer feature , the "Visual Muti Tasking".
    The rest of the features are either improved over some phones or simply missing.

    At this point , arguing over the cheap hardware is the acceptable.
    PALM dropped the ball on hardware.
    The rest ( i.e. WebOS and features .... ) will only get better over time.
    I want to reiterate something. I'm not really arguing out of concern for Palm or an interest in best business strategies. All of this is a long winded response to the hackneyed argument made here that Palm was justified in abandoning its base in pursuit of iPhone like features. From this my point is basically that we already have the iPhone and we don't need Palm's version. Instead Palm should have offered a modern version of what it knew best, and expand the appeal once that foundation was laid down.

    Multitasking is nice but means little to people in practice, and it has been argued extensively that for the most part, Apple manages a decent experience even without multitasking. That's not a strong differentiator, it just doesn't mean a whole lot to people in terms of enabling them to do something they couldn't do before.

    Then there is the real world experience of multitasking on the Pre, which is rife with lags and "too many cards" errors. When I walk into a Sprint store, most often the demo Pre and Pixi devices are sitting on the Touchstone displaying "Too many cards". Each one of those was shown to a user who then lost interest and abandoned the device. And subsequent users who had a look didn't even bother trying to figure out what it meant and passed over to look at other stuff.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  13. #273  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Having a product that fails to make an impression in any particular area could yield the same results.
    Except that hasn't happened. Heck, even you bought one...
  14. #274  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I want to reiterate something. I'm not really arguing out of concern for Palm or an interest in best business strategies. All of this is a long winded response to the hackneyed argument made here that Palm was justified in abandoning its base in pursuit of iPhone like features. From this my point is basically that we already have the iPhone and we don't need Palm's version. Instead Palm should have offered a modern version of what it knew best, and expand the appeal once that foundation was laid down.
    ...
    I think most of us understand what meant without the reiteration. It's your view though, that many of us feel is "hackneyed". Palm was failing. Everyone knew they were coming out with a new advice, and most felt they were going to fail anyway. Most of those also felt that the new device was going to be a ... get this ... modern version of what it knew best. Most felt that they were going to fail because of this.

    Instead, they did something radically different. Those that thought they were going to fail stood up and applauded. Their stocks rose, the phone sold.

    And that's hackneyed? I bet GM wishes they could do something so hackneyed.
  15. #275  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Everyone knew they were coming out with a new advice, and most felt they were going to fail anyway. Most of those also felt that the new device was going to be a ... get this ... modern version of what it knew best. Most felt that they were going to fail because of this.

    Instead, they did something radically different. Those that thought they were going to fail stood up and applauded. Their stocks rose, the phone sold.
    You keep belittling everything Palm was good at to justify their current release, but they got themselves into trouble because of an outdated OS and mismanagement. Those could be fixed without throwing away the good parts.

    The Pre designers talk about Zen gardens and objects as inspiration. But the origin of the Zen of Palm was quite different than literally applying a Zen look to the Pre. For those who are not familiar with the original guide: http://www.accessdevnet.com/docs/zenofpalm.pdf
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  16. #276  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    You keep belittling everything Palm was good at to justify their current release, but they got themselves into trouble because of an outdated OS and mismanagement. Those could be fixed without throwing away the good parts.
    I have done nothing of the sort. I liked Palm OS, which is why I used it for over a decade.

    But it had been patched, modified, and hung on to entirely too long. It was about 18 months overdue to have a complete rebuild, and finally got it.
    Last edited by hparsons; 12/04/2009 at 12:36 AM.
  17. gbp
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    #277  
    Thanks for the PDF.
    Sadly its outdated.
    Page 12 , User needs "Graffiti Power Writing"
    Hmm thats year 2003 , longtime.

    Your point is noted. PALM didn't leave its base. Its modernized its base.
  18. #278  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Thanks for the PDF.
    Sadly its outdated.
    Page 12 , User needs "Graffiti Power Writing"
    Hmm thats year 2003 , longtime.

    Your point is noted. PALM didn't leave its base. Its modernized its base.


    That was written for the technology at the time, the principles hold. I'm not asking to go back to graffiti and monochrome screens. I'm noting the difference between what the Zen of Palm meant originally, and how it is now applied literally in appearance rather than principle.

    As a side benefit, that paper is still worth reading for anyone interested in mobile application design and the history of Palm.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  19. #279  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post


    That was written for the technology at the time, the principles hold. I'm not asking to go back to graffiti and monochrome screens. I'm noting the difference between what the Zen of Palm meant originally, and how it is now applied literally in appearance rather than principle.

    As a side benefit, that paper is still worth reading for anyone interested in mobile application design and the history of Palm.
    Actually, you are asking that they attempt to completely rewrite their OS, AND their core apps, with an entirely different software team, and somehow try to duplicate software that was designed for a totally different type of system (face it, as far as tactile feedback to the device, the use of a finger instead of a stylus greatly reduces the "usable screen area".) And you are asking that they do this before they even know what their new customer base wants.

    As badly as you want a better calendar experience, others want a better media player experience, others want better email, and others demand better games.

    Palm doesn't have the resources Apple does, and even they haven't done that with their device.

    Your expectations are unrealistic.
  20. #280  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Actually, you are asking that they attempt to completely rewrite their OS, AND their core apps, with an entirely different software team, and somehow try to duplicate software that was designed for a totally different type of system (face it, as far as tactile feedback to the device, the use of a finger instead of a stylus greatly reduces the "usable screen area".) And you are asking that they do this before they even know what their new customer base wants.

    As badly as you want a better calendar experience, others want a better media player experience, others want better email, and others demand better games.

    Palm doesn't have the resources Apple does, and even they haven't done that with their device.

    Your expectations are unrealistic.
    No, you misunderstand what I said.

    I'm not asking to go back to a stylus, graffiti or monochrome screens. I like the Pre hardware design and form factor, I think that's one of the bright spots of the Pre.

    And I also didn't ask to put more effort into it, but rather detailed how effort went into excessive animation and overly prettified UI. I am saying effort was wasted on the wrong things, in some places, not all. In another thread I described the difference between two types of animated UIs: one is the task manager animation of cards, which is done natively and gives the Pre a fluid feeling. But animation in apps is JavaScript based and is too slow. Palm should have left out animation inside apps for better usability, but they were too fixated on aesthetics and put it in anyway. Palm's Zen as described in the paper would've called first for efficiency and function over aesthetics. That's the point I was making.

    I think I've said all I had in mind about the topic for the time being, though I'm happy to clarify further if necessary. I should have the 9700 tomorrow for a 30 day evaluation and if there's interest will post a detailed comparison.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700

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