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  1. gbp
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    #241  
    Back to the topic,
    Tweaks are for Geeks.

    At this point , I would love to see PALM announce they crossed 1 million sales of Pre.

    "The Visual Multitasking" should be advertised by PALM.
    Thanks cardfan for coining the term.
  2. gbp
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    #242  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypetey View Post
    Apparently, some of you build houses from the roof down...

    Shingles... check... Roof frame... check.... uh 200 guys to lift the frame up while 200 more guys lay the brick, and then put up the body of the house frame.

    Then you have the interior guys sheet rock, puddy, and paint and have the carpet guys, carpet... there... your house is done.... then you uh... lay the foundation... crap, I knew we forgot something.
    Great response.
    Foundation needs to be strong.
    I am hoping PALM will improvise WebOS with time.
    I would like to see how many tweaks are available next year this time around.
  3. #243  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    It's not about going after Apple with apps. Having apps is essential to being a smartphone.
    I strongly disagree with this. This has become accepted as truth only after the iPhone was introduced, this is how Apple is tripping up all other vendors right now.

    First, a device needs a purpose for being. People need to know what is it good for, and be able to use it for that purpose without deal breakers thrown in around every corner. What is the Pre good for? We blame Palm's advertising campaign for lackluster sales but the truth is, the message is muddled because Palm itself can't define what this phone is good for and who should buy it. The creepy girl campaign reflects Palm's vague and new-age image of the device. None of this is coincidence or just poor thinking on the part of the advertising agency.

    Designers interviewed before the launch described the process of working on the Pre UI as suffused with zen thinking, almost to a dogma. This is the kind of thinking that results in prettified but crippled business features, and possibly even the acceptance of slow performance covered up with gliding menus and fading screens.

    How Palm Designed The Pre - Forbes.com

    "Palm has always been about utility," notes Skillman. "What's different now is we are sparking people's imaginations and connecting to them emotionally.
    ...
    We wanted to build something really soft and precious yet robust that would be very different from the hard, pragmatic products in the market," says Skillman, who has spent a decade with the company.
    ...
    "It's like the chains have been cut off, and we can do all these amazing things," effuses Skillman.
    The chains Skillman is referring to are Palm's historic emphasis on function above everything else. If there was something that Palm was good at and really cared about, the design team was given a license to trash it. Beauty is skin deep of course, and this captures the initial enthusiasm for the product which fizzled quickly after launch.

    And yet:

    "This is the most compelling transition we've gone through," says Skillman. "[The Pre] is the logical outcome of really passionate people who care about the legacy of this company and its values."
    What is the Pre good for? There's not much you can say. It does a lot to certain degrees of success, but what is it good for...the question: "can it run apps", is really a question of "what else can I do with this thing."
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  4. #244  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I strongly disagree with this. This has become accepted as truth only after the iPhone was introduced, this is how Apple is tripping up all other vendors right now.

    First, a device needs a purpose for being. People need to know what is it good for, and be able to use it for that purpose without deal breakers thrown in around every corner. What is the Pre good for? We blame Palm's advertising campaign for lackluster sales but the truth is, the message is muddled because Palm itself can't define what this phone is good for and who should buy it. The creepy girl campaign reflects Palm's vague and new-age image of the device. None of this is coincidence or just poor thinking on the part of the advertising agency.
    I don't think Palm knew or knows. We can agree that their marketing is horrible. Not bad. Horrible. It blows.

    Fat middle was one response from them though i'm not sure they know what they mean when they say that. That's defined differently by different people.

    Busy people was another. But who isn't busy besides the lazy? I don't know..

    I look at it this way. There's a reference set of features we all have for a smartphone. Most come from apple (due to their heavy ads), some from past phones, competitors, etc. I think Palm tried to fit the most popular into a set that can be one handed usable, has a kb, but still has a wide screen.

    It's really an ambitious idea. And they've pulled it off somewhat despite the cheap feeling outside hardware, unpolished features, limited apps & sdk, etc. But marketing has hurt em while Sprint hasn't been too helpful.

    Who's it for? It's really for anyone that wants a smartphone and wants a totally different way to navigate it using a card system and synergy and has the most popular features in an iphone but also that kb and one handedness of RIM.

    Who to target? Everyone. It's a general audience. I don't see how you target anyone specifically.

    How to do this? You show it off. Then be aggressive. You poke at the iphone showing how multitasking & synergy are so much better. You poke at RIM, showing what its like to be able to use it to be productive yet still have the fun side. Sprint could help as well but they're busy doing commercials for the ADD people.

    Maybe in the 2.0 version, it might start getting up to snuff enough to have those robust calendar apps of palm's past. This year though, it was critical to get a device out to sell that appeals to people in general. Not specifically. Palm was gasping for air and needed sales.

    They've a lot to do and really need to fix that marketing.
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    #245  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    .
    But marketing has hurt em while Sprint hasn't been too helpful.


    How to do this? You show it off. Then be aggressive. You poke at the iphone showing how multitasking & synergy are so much better. You poke at RIM, showing what its like to be able to use it to be productive yet still have the fun side. Sprint could help as well but they're busy doing commercials for the ADD people.

    They've a lot to do and really need to fix that marketing.
    i agree mostly except these part sprint did market the pre properly

    Palm shot itself in the kidney with its horrible marketing the months after CES and those commercials were crap

    Sprint tried with those ADD commercials which are popular and effective and to this day they still feature the pre as a flagship phone

    And the way you mentioned they should have went after APPLE and RIM i completely agree but sadly it's to late because what Palm don't driod does
  6.    #246  
    Here in ATL, the Hero is on billboards all over the place, all by itself. I've yet to see a Pre billboard. I'm sure Palm could afford to rent a few billboards, can't they? It's just poor advertising management. Renting a billboard would pay for itself, i'm sure.
  7. #247  
    Quote Originally Posted by tejoe View Post
    i agree mostly except these part sprint did market the pre properly

    Palm shot itself in the kidney with its horrible marketing the months after CES and those commercials were crap

    Sprint tried with those ADD commercials which are popular and effective and to this day they still feature the pre as a flagship phone

    And the way you mentioned they should have went after APPLE and RIM i completely agree but sadly it's to late because what Palm don't driod does
    Sprint is bleeding customers. The now network mantra isn't working. Back to the drawing board.

    JMO...i don't follow sprint that closely..just pay my bill.

    What's a company to do when they're low priced, pretty good customer service IMO, has a great network, yet is bleeding? It's hard to say. Be like an underdog i suppose and attack. They certainly won't get a bully tag from it.
  8. #248  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Yes,
    Mainstream users can be loosely defined.
    These are folks who used to carry their RAZR , iPod and Navigation system.

    Now they can have thes three features in the Pre.
    They can listen to music ( like their iPod) , browse the internets.
    and use GPS.

    Plus they can check their email too.

    These are folks who care less about tweaks or patches or mods ....
    Simply , because they have no interest or time to do these things.
    I agree, but sadly this falls into the category of droid and iphone which put palm in 3rd place or dead last.

    -poor laggy phone app
    -pathetic music player that no longer has itunes sync
    -navigation is available on all 3 but the droid dominates here

    not trying to bash the phone here but this is just the harsh reality I fail to see palm targeting any specific market to call their own and I fail to see palm leading in catering to any one market.
  9. #249  
    Here's my guess on what's going on....

    Release the Pre.

    Keep enough people happy and pushing your product.

    Save money on advertising.

    Announce a 2.0 product at CES

    Let everyone talk about it.

    Save money on advertising.

    Release 2.0 product.

    Let everyone talk about it.

    Save money on advertising.

    See, it works.... lol
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  10. #250  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    ...
    First, a device needs a purpose for being. People need to know what is it good for, and be able to use it for that purpose without deal breakers thrown in around every corner.
    ...
    I think that's the source of your frustration, and it's a misguided premis.

    Maybe, at one time, this was true of Palm, you could define "what the device was for". That quickly went by the way side though.

    Ask a variety of people what a PC is for, and you will get a variety of answers:
    Social network, email, graphic design, spreadsheets, games, programming, and the list goes on. It really depends on what that person needed it for.

    The original Palm device was designed as a PDA. That single use began to chip away, once people discovered that it could be used for other things; however, it's primary use was as a PDA.

    That paradigm began to be destroyed when Handspring offered an add-on that turned it into a phone, and it was destroyed completely when Palm introduced the Treo (and stopped making dedicated PDAs

    It was no longer primiarly a PDA. Some bought it primarily for it's phone capabilities and the PDA was secondary, others bought it as a PDA, and it was handy to have a phone combined. Interestingly, you can see which camp the geeks among us came from by the track records we spout. Some folks list the phones they used that migrated to a Treo, and some list the PDAs that migrated there. I fall in the latter group. I can't tell you which phone my Treo replaced, because I don't remember. I can tell you which PDA it replaced though.

    Even at that, the use was still primarily PDA or phone, with apps (including media and browser) secondary. About the same time the Treo was gaining traction, the BlackBerry began to as well, and a third major use was added to the emergin "smartphone" category - email. Browing (for both devices) was almost an afterthought (and it showed).

    The three "camps" of smartphones (Palm, BB, WinMo) offered the same basic three things; Phone, PIM, and email, with browsing, multimedia (primarily music) and apps kind of "thrown in" as extras (and it showed, on all three...).

    Then the iPhone came along, and by design pushed the smartphones into being multi-media players, and also deliberately beefed up the "internet connected" aspect. That changed the game pretty radically. What changed it even more radically was the apps.

    Apps were nothing new to the smartphone game. There were literally tens of thousands of apps for the Palm. In spite of the number of apps, it was always a "secondary thing", something neither BB, Palm, or WinMo really "advertised" to any real degree. Almost an afterthought.

    Then the iPhone began to take off, and the demand for apps increased, to the point that availability of apps is a major part of any smartphone today.

    So, we now have the "smartphone" device, and it realistically has five major uses - Phone, PDA (including calendar and contact manager), Internet (including email, browsing, and social networking), MultiMedia (including music, video, and pictures), and the more generic Apps, which lets the individual user fine tune the device and/or concentrate on their particular need (I choose to leave games in the category of apps, because it's more of a time-waster on a smartphone than a serious use... just my opinion).

    So, take these five categories:
    • Phone
    • PDA
    • Internet
    • MultiMedia
    • Apps

    Ask about 100 different people to rate them in order of importance, and watch what happens. I suspect you'd get just about any one of the first 3 to evenly distributed as the #1 need, all of them in that spot among some, and all of the uses pretty spread out in order of importance.

    So, which one should Palm concentrate on?

    The simple truth is they can't pick one. Period. They have to slowly improve every single one as they try to expand their market. As a result, all of them will (and have) start fairly basic, and will be built on as the company sees the need. If they had chosen to completely ignore any one of those categories (and obviously, they have not completely ignored any of them), the Pre would most certainly have failed.

    It didn't. That speaks highly of Palm. They have got a well-rounded device now. As they improve the various features, they will have to continue to keep it a well-rounded device, meaning that all of the features will have to be improved on, not just one or two that a few vocal users "insist" they have to "fix".

    Some of those improvements will come from Palm. Some will come from third party developers whose product Palm will license. Some will come as totally seperate add-ons from other third party developers, but the imiprovements will come.
  11. #251  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    I agree, but sadly this falls into the category of droid and iphone which put palm in 3rd place or dead last.
    ...
    Actually, BlackBerry (as a group) is still ahead of all three. It is still is the lesser of the four "groups" (iPhone, Pre, Android, BB) in all of those categories except phone, yet it still has dominance.

    Of course, that's largely because the game has changed. Out of the thre "new" groups, iPhone is the only one that has achieved dominance, and that's largely because they were the first in the game.

    Palm will happily accept a 3rd, or even 4th place in that group. They've said that almost from the introduction of the Pre.

    It's a growing market, and they will continue to have a piece of the pie.
  12. gbp
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    #252  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post

    Who's it for? It's really for anyone that wants a smartphone and wants a totally different way to navigate it using a card system and synergy and has the most popular features in an iphone but also that kb and one handedness of RIM.

    Who to target? Everyone. It's a general audience. I don't see how you target anyone specifically.
    Completely agree,
    Here is my two cents.
    The fact that PALM failed to created a buzz by not going after iPhone is the "sole reason" for Pre being a mediocre success.

    Roger McNamee was spot on when he said Pre is much better than iPhone or any phone. His grab the bull by horn approach with iPhone didn't go well with folks at PALM.
  13. gbp
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    #253  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post

    First, a device needs a purpose for being. People need to know what is it
    good for, and be able to use it for that purpose without deal breakers thrown in around every corner. What is the Pre good for? We blame Palm's advertising campaign for lackluster sales but the truth is, the message is muddled because Palm itself can't define what this phone is good for and who should buy it.
    You have been arguing some good points.

    But here is something I would say,
    " You don't make a product targeting people, You make a great product and people will target your product".

    iPhone is such thing.
    During the keynote in 2007 , Steve jobs said


    "An iPod, a phone, an internet mobile communicator. An iPod, a phone, an internet mobile communicator.... these are NOT three separate devices!""

    "And we are calling it iPhone!"


    I am not sure who he is targeting ?

    We have mobile communicators since the 1990s.
    We have phones that play music for long long time.
    And We have cell phones for years , even before APPLE was born.

    So what did Mr Jobs do ? Improvise the above three things by introducing

    "So how are we going to take this to a mobile device? Get rid of all the buttons, and just make a giant screen. So how are we going to communicate? We're going to use a stylus -- no. Who wants a stylus?? Yuck!"

    "So let's not use a stylus, we're going to use the best pointing device in the world -- our fingers. We have invented a new technology called multi-touch. It works like magic, you don't need a stylus, far more accurate than any interface ever shipped, it ignores touches, mutli-finger gestures, and BOY have we patented it!"


    All Jobs did is get away from physical keyboard and introduce multitouch.

    And he was a marketing genius , with one feature i.e. multitouch he changed the perception.

    Folks stood in line to buy the thing.

    Was it a good phone ? Nope ,
    Did it have APPS ? None
    Can you swap the battery ? Nunca
    Can you record Video ? Not in a million years
    Can you add SD card ? Are you nuts ?
    And does it do Cut and Paste ? who cares

    What it did best was browsing and music.

    Did folks complain about tweaks ? Yes.
    Did the phone added features ? Yes it took two years.

    So there you go,

    YOU DON"T NEED TO TARGET FOLKS , FOLKS SHOULD TARGET YOUR PRODUCT.

    How can that be done , first make a great product (subjective) then market it as the greatest thing since whatever.

    Just saying.
  14. #254  
    Added to what gbp, cardfan, and I have said is this:

    Take two extremes

    Group 1 - Those that expected the Pre do do one thing extremely well (no matter what that one thing was)

    Group 2 - Those that expted the Pre to be a platform where mulltiple things would eventually be done, and didn't anticipate "greatness" on any one thing.

    I suspect that wherever you sit between these two extremes will also closely represent how dissatisified (Group 1) or satisified (Group 2) you are with the device.
  15. #255  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Added to what gbp, cardfan, and I have said is this:

    Take two extremes

    Group 1 - Those that expected the Pre do do one thing extremely well (no matter what that one thing was)

    Group 2 - Those that expted the Pre to be a platform where mulltiple things would eventually be done, and didn't anticipate "greatness" on any one thing.

    I suspect that wherever you sit between these two extremes will also closely represent how dissatisified (Group 1) or satisified (Group 2) you are with the device.
    you forgot the most important group the flip side to the topic of this thread.

    Group 3 - Those that expected the Pre to compete with similar priced devices on the market out of the box in all capabilities of the phone.
  16.    #256  
    What about the 'market' that expected NOT to be taken back 7-10 YEARS in basic and i mean BASIC functionality?
  17. #257  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    What about the 'market' that expected NOT to be taken back 7-10 YEARS in basic and i mean BASIC functionality?
    Actually the volume of the phone dialer is better compared to 1985
  18. #258  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    you forgot the most important group the flip side to the topic of this thread.

    Group 3 - Those that expected the Pre to compete with similar priced devices on the market out of the box in all capabilities of the phone.
    Nope, that's about like saying "You forgot the group of redheads"

    By that, I mean that the "Group 3" has nothing to do with the other groups mentioned. You can be in "Group 3", and still be in either group.

    Personally, I don't care what it "competes" with, as long as it does what I need it to do. If I was looking for the device that was selling the most, I'd have gone with something else.

    Howeve, the truth is, it is competing, and very nicely. At least, nicely enough to have avoided bankruptcy.
  19. #259  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    What about the 'market' that expected NOT to be taken back 7-10 YEARS in basic and i mean BASIC functionality?
    And, of course there were so many phones 7-10 years ago that does all of the things the Pre does now.

    I suspect you can't name any of them though...
  20. #260  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Who's it for? It's really for anyone that wants a smartphone and wants a totally different way to navigate it using a card system and synergy and has the most popular features in an iphone but also that kb and one handedness of RIM.

    Who to target? Everyone. It's a general audience. I don't see how you target anyone specifically.
    You can't target everyone, that's an oxymoron.

    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Maybe, at one time, this was true of Palm, you could define "what the device was for". That quickly went by the way side though.
    Even a phone is a natural extension of having an address book on your device, which is a core function of a PDA. I remember seeing this, as well as the reviews and thinking, finally. Just dialing the contact you referenced in your calendar or emailed with. It made perfect sense for a PDA to grow a phone and be able to access email.

    The three "camps" of smartphones (Palm, BB, WinMo) offered the same basic three things; Phone, PIM, and email, with browsing, multimedia (primarily music) and apps kind of "thrown in" as extras (and it showed, on all three...).

    Then the iPhone came along, and by design pushed the smartphones into being multi-media players, and also deliberately beefed up the "internet connected" aspect. That changed the game pretty radically. What changed it even more radically was the apps.

    Apps were nothing new to the smartphone game. There were literally tens of thousands of apps for the Palm. In spite of the number of apps, it was always a "secondary thing", something neither BB, Palm, or WinMo really "advertised" to any real degree. Almost an afterthought.

    Then the iPhone began to take off, and the demand for apps increased, to the point that availability of apps is a major part of any smartphone today.

    So, we now have the "smartphone" device, and it realistically has five major uses - Phone, PDA (including calendar and contact manager), Internet (including email, browsing, and social networking), MultiMedia (including music, video, and pictures), and the more generic Apps, which lets the individual user fine tune the device and/or concentrate on their particular need (I choose to leave games in the category of apps, because it's more of a time-waster on a smartphone than a serious use... just my opinion).
    The iPhone is really the first convergence device, a different mythological beast. And Palm could do this, if it had its own mature OS with the same capabilities as OS X. Apple brought its desktop OS to the device, Palm didn't. So where should Palm start from? I think the Pre is a decent media player and has a very good browser. But those are there because the components were available for Palm to port easily from open source. Eventually, Palm could have its own convergence device, but it would require a lot of work, just what Apple has done at the earlier part of the decade. They don't have the same foundation, so Palm has to economize and has to focus instead of targetting everyone and doing everything.

    So, take these five categories:
    • Phone
    • PDA
    • Internet
    • MultiMedia
    • Apps

    Ask about 100 different people to rate them in order of importance, and watch what happens. I suspect you'd get just about any one of the first 3 to evenly distributed as the #1 need, all of them in that spot among some, and all of the uses pretty spread out in order of importance.

    So, which one should Palm concentrate on?

    The simple truth is they can't pick one. Period. They have to slowly improve every single one as they try to expand their market. As a result, all of them will (and have) start fairly basic, and will be built on as the company sees the need. If they had chosen to completely ignore any one of those categories (and obviously, they have not completely ignored any of them), the Pre would most certainly have failed.

    It didn't. That speaks highly of Palm. They have got a well-rounded device now. As they improve the various features, they will have to continue to keep it a well-rounded device, meaning that all of the features will have to be improved on, not just one or two that a few vocal users "insist" they have to "fix".

    Some of those improvements will come from Palm. Some will come from third party developers whose product Palm will license. Some will come as totally seperate add-ons from other third party developers, but the imiprovements will come.
    They can pick one, and I am just discussing a focus, not exclusion of everything else. They made an attempt at connectivity and multiple calendaring but they got bogged down in aesthetics and threw efficiency out the window.

    I would expect them to do one thing very well, have a story, and do other things pretty well and expand on them gradually. But first differentiate and creat a solid base around one easy to understand principle. Multitasking and cards are just UI schemes. By now Synergy has already been emulated because it wasn't that hard to do. But only RIM and to some extent WM still emphasize efficiency, only they are stuck with old OSs.

    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    " You don't make a product targeting people, You make a great product and people will target your product".

    iPhone is such thing.
    During the keynote in 2007 , Steve jobs said


    "An iPod, a phone, an internet mobile communicator. An iPod, a phone, an internet mobile communicator.... these are NOT three separate devices!""

    "And we are calling it iPhone!"


    I am not sure who he is targeting ?
    A convergence device on the scale of the iPhone, a first back in 2007, didn't need to target much. It just blew people's minds away.

    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Take two extremes

    Group 1 - Those that expected the Pre do do one thing extremely well (no matter what that one thing was)
    Nope. I'm saying it should start with doing one thing very well, and expand on the others gradually. First have a well defined product, that incidentally doesn't force users to compromise much on non-core functionality. And Palm came quite close, they just got bogged down in aesthetics.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700

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