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  1. #221  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    The day they started building the phone, there were no features to "dumb down". They started from scratch. Everything they did was an "add" from the previous "version" of what they had.
    Yes, but looking at the Calendar, Tasks and Notes app, certainly lots of effort was expended on making them pretty. Was this then the right focus? Of all things, making the business apps pretty instead of functional given their limited resources.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
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    #222  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Yes, but looking at the Calendar, Tasks and Notes app, certainly lots of effort was expended on making them pretty. Was this then the right focus? Of all things, making the business apps pretty instead of functional given their limited resources.
    one word.Yes. pretty sells and sells well even the oldest industry in the world uses this logic.
  3. #223  
    Quote Originally Posted by tejoe View Post
    There no rationale but there is a proven track record, first to market with something wins and the rest play catch up until the new "new" comes.
    What you are implying is that the strategy i mentioned has failed the ones that use it and is not successful.(again beating a dead horse most of the things google pushes use this strategy)
    I don't think the Apple contingent at Palm want to prove anything i think they want to emulate.
    Yes i do think that the pre was built of disregarded iphone ideas
    I also think its a foundation not the whole house there is more to it then just ****off ex-apple employees trying to get back at jobs
    But it is possible that the Apple contingent didn't really understand what Palm is doing. And maybe it wasn't business features that killed Palm OS, just that Palm OS was old and Palm itself mismanaged. I see no need of any change of focus, no need to throw away stuff, turn their back on old customer base if all they needed is to refresh their OS.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  4. #224  
    Quote Originally Posted by tejoe View Post
    one word.Yes. pretty sells and sells well even the oldest industry in the world uses this logic.
    Very well. So the calendar animates and lags. What's that like to use? Yup, glorious user experience and great impression of the device. And, if, as claimed here, those consumers aren't even looking for PIM, do they even care what the calendar looks like?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  5. #225  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    PALM should release a statement like

    "To all the OLD PALM faithful turned Pre complainers

    Thanks for supporting PALM 10 years back.
    And thanks for trying our new Pre with a groundbreaking operating system WebOS.

    We know you are mad at Pre.
    We can understand that.
    You are smart , know a thing or two about Scheduler,
    and can teach a lesson to Steve Jobs on using PIM.

    But time has come to cater to the mainstream customers.
    So we changed our strategy. Only because you are becoming a minority compared to the mainstream customers we plan to sell.
    Thanks for supporting us so long.
    We hope you like our products.
    If you have any suggestions , submit them to PALM."

    Thanks
    Chuq Von.
    what exactly is mainstream here?

    it is not heavy business users.

    so is it web browsing and app users?

    if so yes the web browser is impressive, but why would any person buy the pre for the 350 low quality apps????? (no fault of the developers they have done the best they can with what palm has given them)

    just curious to know exactly what part of the market is palm targeting here????

    I would assume they are targeting the iphone users (app users and web browsers) considering that they hired half of apples staff and are copying the user interface with the multi touch gestures, and use of itunes.
  6. #226  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    But it is possible that the Apple contingent didn't really understand what Palm is doing. And maybe it wasn't business features that killed Palm OS, just that Palm OS was old and Palm itself mismanaged. I see no need of any change of focus, no need to throw away stuff, turn their back on old customer base if all they needed is to refresh their OS.
    Apparently, they disagreed.

    Fact is, the old OS worked exactly as it did, and looked exactly the way it was, and the company was dying on the vine. "Keepin on keepin on" wouldn't have saved the company.
  7. #227  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Apparently, they disagreed.

    Fact is, the old OS worked exactly as it did, and looked exactly the way it was, and the company was dying on the vine. "Keepin on keepin on" wouldn't have saved the company.
    I still don't see how business features killed the company. Did the OS need an overhaul? Yes. Did it need to become pretty at the expense of function? No.
  8. #228  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I still don't see how business features killed the company. Did the OS need an overhaul? Yes. Did it need to become pretty at the expense of function? No.
    Sigh... You don't seem to get it.
    There was no function of the new OS. They had to build it. Nothing was there to "sacrifice". They started from the ground up. Yes, appealing to the masses was more important than any one single segment (were that not the case, the "business segment" would have kept them afloat, they didn't).

    So, they build the device, and start adding what they perceive the customers want.

    Frankly, I see a lot more demand for games than I do "serious business apps". Plus, the fact that people are already screaming about the "expense" of a $5 app doesn't bode well for catering to the business community.

    If the business community wants progress, they need to pony up.
  9. #229  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Sigh... You don't seem to get it.
    There was no function of the new OS. They had to build it. Nothing was there to "sacrifice". They started from the ground up. Yes, appealing to the masses was more important than any one single segment (were that not the case, the "business segment" would have kept them afloat, they didn't).

    So, they build the device, and start adding what they perceive the customers want.
    I'm not opposed to them expanding their appeal. I'm asking why does it have to come at the expense of business features? Was it necessary to put in all the animation into the calendar which already suffers from performance problems and lacks search, make the sticky notes app and limited yet animated Tasks app? If consumers don't need those apps, why make those look and work like toy apps?

    Frankly, I see a lot more demand for games than I do "serious business apps". Plus, the fact that people are already screaming about the "expense" of a $5 app doesn't bode well for catering to the business community.

    If the business community wants progress, they need to pony up.
    Yes, I see that demand and I think it also explains much of the demand for "apps", which have become a sort of entertainment nowadays. But what does Palm bring to the table that Apple doesn't? It's an exercise in futility to go after Apple in that area. It's a tough situation and Apple put up some tough barrier here.

    I just don't see a reason to buy from Palm when the iPhone already offers that capability, a huge market and the attention of developers. And from a functional perspective, multitasking matters little for gaming and immersive apps. It's valuable for business and communication.

    At the same time, Apple clearly has no interest in business use and Palm's brand holds value in that area. RIM could use a more friendly OS that could access the web more easily. All of this sits there for the taking but Palm is going after Apple's turf with bare hands. I don't get it.

    Business users, or anyone who needs an app that makes them more productive and save them time, will pay for apps. Those who want a Pre instead of an iPhone would pay a premium due to the smaller market. For some it would make sense, other don't. How will Palm draw in the big developers is a difficult problem no matter what Palm does. At least, if the Pre was a robust business tool and Palm worked closely with a few big name developers, it could lay a solid foundation even if for some time it would need to be a niche player.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  10. #230  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    ...
    I just don't see a reason to buy from Palm when the iPhone already offers that capability, a huge market and the attention of developers. And from a functional perspective, multitasking matters little for gaming and immersive apps. It's valuable for business and communication.
    ...
    And yet, people still buy from Palm (well, actually from service providers, who buy from Palm), including yourself.

    I won't speak for you, or those others, but I didn't buy it for the games, the apps, the business apps, or any other single feature; I bought it for all of those features (well, most of them... some I caught on to as a bonus). The Pre is one of the few devices that does all of those things well. It may not be the best in any one category, but the fact that it does all of them well is the appeal for me.

    The future potential is like the icing on the cake.
  11. #231  
    I can see that, which is even more frustrating, because they came so close and blew it with PIM for no good reason.
  12. gbp
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    #232  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    That's not what I asked. Did this courting of the mainstream customer entail dumbing down business features, or were business features just badly implemented regardless?
    What exactly is your gripe ?
    Give me some examples of dumbing on the Pre ?
    Last edited by gbp; 12/03/2009 at 03:53 AM.
  13. #233  
    It's not about going after Apple with apps. Having apps is essential to being a smartphone. Besides, palm OS had thousands of apps. Palm is copying apple's app store, but then so is everyone else. We're just seeing a lot of quickly put together apps that aren't nearly as thought out as the few we've had in the past. It's an app market today that consists of your longterm apps and many many throwaways..try em a few days and discard.

    Only thing limiting palm apps is the sdk. I've been surprised by a handful of apps, but most don't do much for me. But that's true of any platform to only have a few appeal to you.

    I do see some of your beefs though. Does the memo app really have to look like that?

    It's still a 1.x product. You pick one aspect (such as the calendar) and yep, it needs work. Even the browser, the darling of the Pre, needs work (though quite usable).

    If i look from an iphone perspective, you can't local sync easily. No central itunes desktop like sync. Some apps, but hardly any big names or games. Can only buy music..no way to buy movies/tv shows other than converting. Ease of putting media on isn't there though drag n drop isn't hard, it's just not good enough for the target market.

    No video or audio recording. Maps is sad compared to iphone's. Music app is sad.

    I don't see Palm being particulary strong in terms of either an iphone or RIM perspective. Palm seems to me to be a best of both worlds type of phone but unpolished in every area...some more unpolished than others. Yet, the Pre boasts its own unique abilities such as visual multitasking, notifications, synergy (very strong), portrait kb slider.

    This results in almost every camp wanting more such as a better calendar, better apps, better this, better that. The beauty though is that they have at least a taste of everything in one device. Palm's goal shouldn't be to beef one aspect up at the expense of another but to gradually improve everything 1.x offers while promoting and marketing its unique features.

    Synergy & multitasking for example just isn't being told (shown) to the masses at all. Several different commercials could be done even going as far to compare against the "reference" iphone. It's great stuff that still goes largely unknown and lost in the midst of "there's an app for that" and "drooiiidd"
  14. #234  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    It's not about going after Apple with apps. Having apps is essential to being a smartphone. Besides, palm OS had thousands of apps. Palm is copying apple's app store, but then so is everyone else. We're just seeing a lot of quickly put together apps that aren't nearly as thought out as the few we've had in the past. It's an app market today that consists of your longterm apps and many many throwaways..try em a few days and discard.

    Only thing limiting palm apps is the sdk. I've been surprised by a handful of apps, but most don't do much for me. But that's true of any platform to only have a few appeal to you.

    I do see some of your beefs though. Does the memo app really have to look like that?

    It's still a 1.x product. You pick one aspect (such as the calendar) and yep, it needs work. Even the browser, the darling of the Pre, needs work (though quite usable).

    If i look from an iphone perspective, you can't local sync easily. No central itunes desktop like sync. Some apps, but hardly any big names or games. Can only buy music..no way to buy movies/tv shows other than converting. Ease of putting media on isn't there though drag n drop isn't hard, it's just not good enough for the target market.

    No video or audio recording. Maps is sad compared to iphone's. Music app is sad.

    I don't see Palm being particulary strong in terms of either an iphone or RIM perspective. Palm seems to me to be a best of both worlds type of phone but unpolished in every area...some more unpolished than others. Yet, the Pre boasts its own unique abilities such as visual multitasking, notifications, synergy (very strong), portrait kb slider.

    This results in almost every camp wanting more such as a better calendar, better apps, better this, better that. The beauty though is that they have at least a taste of everything in one device. Palm's goal shouldn't be to beef one aspect up at the expense of another but to gradually improve everything 1.x offers while promoting and marketing its unique features.

    Synergy & multitasking for example just isn't being told (shown) to the masses at all. Several different commercials could be done even going as far to compare against the "reference" iphone. It's great stuff that still goes largely unknown and lost in the midst of "there's an app for that" and "drooiiidd"
    well said Cardfan. Palm can't do everything in a first gen product regardless of their prior PIM experience with PDAs, etc. And so the key is to build a platform that is easily scalable and to improve on functionality over time.

    In the interim, they indeed should market the heck out of Synergy and "visual multitasking" (nice phrase here Cardfan!). Sadly I have little faith in Palm's marketing ability and so I don't see that happening.

    Sivan is right that improvements are needed for key tools like Calender, memos, etc. But Hparsons is also right that all of this can't be done right away and patience is necessary. I for one can't imagine that Palm won't improve functionality, particularly speed, over time.

    Since everyone is right, can we have a party now?
  15. gbp
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    #235  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    what exactly is mainstream here?

    it is not heavy business users.

    so is it web browsing and app users?
    Yes,
    Mainstream users can be loosely defined.
    These are folks who used to carry their RAZR , iPod and Navigation system.

    Now they can have thes three features in the Pre.
    They can listen to music ( like their iPod) , browse the internets.
    and use GPS.

    Plus they can check their email too.

    These are folks who care less about tweaks or patches or mods ....
    Simply , because they have no interest or time to do these things.
  16. gbp
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    #236  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post

    I don't see Palm being particulary strong in terms of either an iphone or RIM perspective. Palm seems to me to be a best of both worlds type of phone but unpolished in every area...some more unpolished than others. Yet, the Pre boasts its own unique abilities such as visual multitasking, notifications, synergy (very strong), portrait kb slider.

    This results in almost every camp wanting more such as a better calendar, better apps, better this, better that. The beauty though is that they have at least a taste of everything in one device. Palm's goal shouldn't be to beef one aspect up at the expense of another but to gradually improve everything 1.x offers while promoting and marketing its unique features.

    Synergy & multitasking for example just isn't being told (shown) to the masses at all. Several different commercials could be done even going as far to compare against the "reference" iphone. It's great stuff that still goes largely unknown and lost in the midst of "there's an app for that" and "drooiiidd"
    Very well said.
    I would add one thing, my feeling is that baring the video / voice recording feature most of the Pre customers (minus this forum members)
    are happy with it now.
    But as you said ,PALM needs to improvise.
  17. #237  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    ...
    I don't see Palm being particulary strong in terms of either an iphone or RIM perspective. Palm seems to me to be a best of both worlds type of phone but unpolished in every area...some more unpolished than others. Yet, the Pre boasts its own unique abilities such as visual multitasking, notifications, synergy (very strong), portrait kb slider.

    This results in almost every camp wanting more such as a better calendar, better apps, better this, better that. The beauty though is that they have at least a taste of everything in one device. Palm's goal shouldn't be to beef one aspect up at the expense of another but to gradually improve everything 1.x offers while promoting and marketing its unique features.

    Synergy & multitasking for example just isn't being told (shown) to the masses at all. Several different commercials could be done even going as far to compare against the "reference" iphone. It's great stuff that still goes largely unknown and lost in the midst of "there's an app for that" and "drooiiidd"
    You've put into words my thoughts very well.

    That's twice this week we've agreed. I'm starting to worry...
  18. #238  
    Quote Originally Posted by Really mobile View Post
    Since everyone is right, can we have a party now?
    Best suggestion yet.
  19. #239  
    Apparently, some of you build houses from the roof down...

    Shingles... check... Roof frame... check.... uh 200 guys to lift the frame up while 200 more guys lay the brick, and then put up the body of the house frame.

    Then you have the interior guys sheet rock, puddy, and paint and have the carpet guys, carpet... there... your house is done.... then you uh... lay the foundation... crap, I knew we forgot something.
    If you like my Themes, please donate! Thanks!

    http://wiseguyandbeyond.blogspot.com

    http://wiseguyandbeyond.blogspot.com
  20.    #240  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypetey View Post
    Apparently, some of you build houses from the roof down...

    Shingles... check... Roof frame... check.... uh 200 guys to lift the frame up while 200 more guys lay the brick, and then put up the body of the house frame.

    Then you have the interior guys sheet rock, puddy, and paint and have the carpet guys, carpet... there... your house is done.... then you uh... lay the foundation... crap, I knew we forgot something.
    That's a good one. I like that.

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