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  1. Crimson's Avatar
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       #1  
    First let me say I've been a loyal listener to the Palmcast for a long time now and I've always admired Derek as a many of few words but when he speaks he tends to make quality points.

    So when I read Derek's nearly 2500 words rant on Palm I nearly went into a seizure. I had to double-check that it was actually Derek that posted it. The Constitution, the founding document of our country, only took 4400 words to get to a pretty precise point. Derek.. I'm not sure if Dieter spiked your coffee cup with some of his secret Minnesota Moonshine but please don't do that again!

    That being said let me say this: Derek, you are wrong and here is why:

    Yes.. Palm has been dead for the past few years. They wasted time on the Foleo. They were basically on life support. I remember many thinking the Foleo would save them. You were horribly wrong. It was a massive mistake and further delayed their comeback. Finally, a light went on at Palm.. and they decided to start developing WebOS.. Yes, they were about 2 years late to the game. But if they had not come to this realization.. the company would be DEAD.. out of business by now. Complaining about what SHOULD have been done is pointless at this juncture. They screwed up.. move on, get over it.

    Ring Ring. Who's there? 2003.. 2003 who? 2003 who wants his PDA back. Derek and others.. get OVER the PDA functionality problems already. As an IT professional there are 2 critical functions my phone needs to serve. I need to be able to communicate (Voice and data) and I need information.. and need it NOW. Outlook can handle my my scheduling needs for now.

    Palm failed HORRIBLY in 2 of 3 of those areas with their PDA's and phones. They worked fine as a phone. Email was at BEST 'usable' with Chattermail. The web, well.. the web was almost completely useless. While the thousands of Apps available were nice for Palm OS.. if I couldn't read an email from a co-worker.. or I couldn't go to 90% of the websites that exist.. I am DEAD IN THE WATER.

    Palm needed to get a device out NOW.. and I think they realized the core areas they needed to focus on. Voice, Email, and Web. Of those 3 areas I would give them a 8.5 of 10 on the voice, an 7.0 of 10 on email, and a 9 of 10 on web. When Flash comes out I'd modify that to 9.5 if its usable. They hit a home run in my mind for a completely new OS.. they nailed it. It can only get better from here.

    I bought this phone completely realizing it was a 1.0 device. Honestly if anyone purchased it expect the apps to have the refinement of the iPhone, or the maturity of Palm OS.. let me put this nicely.. you were an *****. Sure.. video recording would be nice. Sure, better sync would be nice.. Sure, better PDA features would be nice. Sure higher quality hardware would be nice, But Palm is a small company, and re-writing all these apps to be as mature as their previous offerings is just unrealistic and completely redesigning the hardware is no easy task either. You have massive companies like Dell who still can't compete with Apple on design.

    Palm has a very promising future ahead of them. A future that looked like a brick wall a year ago. The phone everyone is looking for will come in the Pre 2.0 or 3.0. If you were under the impression that you would get everything you wanted in Pre 1.0, you are living in a fantasy land. It will take time to catch up. If you need the latest and greatest right now, in many ways, Palm is not the phone for you. People need to stop gaining their self esteem from their phone. Its a tool.

    However, I think Palm has hit a home run in certain areas. The web is fantasic, email is pretty damn good - I can READ the emails I need to READ, the voice stuff is fine.. The rest of it will come in time. If you can't wait. Sell the phone.. Its going to take time. They rushed a phone to market because if they had not, they would be out of business. That rush was a double-edged sword. It saved the company and it caused them to make some mistakes.

    With their recent hires and frequent updates I have no doubt Palm will be quite successful. What they won't do is replace the iPhone, or be able to compete with the innovation of Google. They simply aren't large enough to pull that off. What they WILL be able to do is create a community like they had with the Palm OS. They will have a core group of quality developers putting out great apps. A core group of users who will come to expect to use these apps over multiple generations of phones. With a little bit of luck, they can turn around their market share and start to become a name people respect again.

    Derek - You need to keep things in perspective. What Palm has done with the Pre is nothing short of amazing. If you are truly a Palm Fan you should realize that Palm has done almost as much in the past 5 months than they did in the past 5 years. Its clear they are listening and they are trying to fix things as fast as they can. Stop trying to use your phone to 'show up' your iPhone buddies. Its not going to happen. Palm is taking an approach on this phone that no other manufacturer seems to be doing. Its going to take some time, but they are either going to win big or go out of business.

    Whew. That only took me 1000 words to respond.

    (Steps off soap box.)
  2. #2  
    While I agree with much of Derek's editorial, I have to admit, I agree with more of yours. Well put.
  3. #3  
    Personally, i'm not that concerned yet with apps. I realize Palm needs time.

    I'm not that concerned with core features needing lots and lots of updates. Although the phone app is most critical. It's a phone Palm. Has to work for me.

    The main culprit for me was the hardware. I can't exchange these things 1-2 times a month. I went through 5 Pre's. My wife has had 3 of them. My sister has had 4. Can't speak for them, but i baby my phones. You name an issue, i've seen it..cracks, splotches, etc.

    The screen is prone to scratches no matter how you baby it.

    Being a small company isn't an excuse. Produce better hardware Palm. It's what you sell. Dazzle me with some quality hardware and I'll be pretty patient with the software & apps. Stop screwing around with Pixi's and get us a big screen form factor. If i'm going to be asked to take the wait and see approach, then get the hardware out so i can do so.
  4. s219's Avatar
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    #4  
    Much of what Derek wrote is fact, and objective. Disagree with it if you will but it's a mistake to call it wrong. In addition, there is way too much Palm allegiance showing through here. I especially take issue with this statement:

    "They will have a core group of quality developers putting out great apps."

    Wishful thinking. Until Palm creates a real SDK, there will not be great apps or a core group of quality developers. If you think otherwise, then you're in for a world of disappointment. One only need look at the current app abominations to see what I mean.
  5. #5  
    apparently you guys did not read all the comments to the article because an overwhelming amount of people agreed with Derek.

    kind of funny isn't it hp haven't me and you been arguing about all of these points for 2 days now......lmao
  6. #6  
    I agree with a lot of what Derek said. But my conclusion is different. Palm is doing the right things, it's just taking longer than many of us had hoped. The html/javascript/css apps were supposed to trade speed and sheer capability for ease of development, which should make for a huge number of apps, and I still think that's the case, but we didn't expect the app catalog to be in beta for so long.

    I have no doubt that we'll eventually see gpu and native Linux support--the benefits are just too good to pass up--but wiring up the interface just right will take time.

    The hardware (if it's working right) is good on the inside, and the form factor suits me. In the end, that's why I've still got a Pre. It fits me. I spend so much time with my phone, I really need a good fit. It's a very personal choice, really.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    Much of what Derek wrote is fact, and objective. Disagree with it if you will but it's a mistake to call it wrong. In addition, there is way too much Palm allegiance showing through. I especially take issue with this statement:

    "They will have a core group of quality developers putting out great apps."

    Wishful thinking. Until Palm creates a real SDK, there will not be great apps or a core group of quality developers. If you think otherwise, then you're in for a world of disappointment. One only need look at the current app abominations to see what I mean.
    Palm's current SDK allows for "great" apps, however very few devs have simply taken the time to create "great" experiences for the platform.

    With my app, Dealert, I really tried to find a good app to fit on the platform. I feel that background apps + the dashboard provide some REALLY awesome functionality, which is what I wanted to target with Dealert. Dealert, like my Pre, becomes a tool that I can use to help me find deals without me having to do anything. I cannot do that on my iPhone. With Android I could, but not as seamless as webOS allows me to do.

    I have another app in the works that is also best suited for webOS. The SDK is not limiting ALL types of apps, it actually even makes specific types of apps a lot better.

    No, it won't support gaming right now, but I bought the Pre to be a useful tool, and with some creative app ideas and good execution, the App Catalog will house some of the most useful phone apps on any platform.
    Developer of:

    -------------------------------------
    Discuss my apps in my developer forum
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson View Post
    Ring Ring. Who's there? 2003.. 2003 who? 2003 who wants his PDA back. Derek and others.. get OVER the PDA functionality problems already. As an IT professional there are 2 critical functions my phone needs to serve. I need to be able to communicate (Voice and data) and I need information.. and need it NOW. Outlook can handle my my scheduling needs for now.

    Palm failed HORRIBLY in 2 of 3 of those areas with their PDA's and phones. They worked fine as a phone. Email was at BEST 'usable' with Chattermail. The web, well.. the web was almost completely useless. While the thousands of Apps available were nice for Palm OS.. if I couldn't read an email from a co-worker.. or I couldn't go to 90% of the websites that exist.. I am DEAD IN THE WATER.
    But just like you're okay using Outlook for the PDA stuff, why can't you use your computer for browsing and email? Seriously, tell us what's left that the Pre absolutely must do. Everyone here is quick to say that this is not important, that is not important, and in the end there's nothing left to judge if the Pre is even doing anything important.

    I bought this phone completely realizing it was a 1.0 device. Honestly if anyone purchased it expect the apps to have the refinement of the iPhone, or the maturity of Palm OS..
    That's a false dichotomy. What we got was Palm trying to be Apple by dumbing down its product. Clearly they had time to work on JavaScript animations at the expense of real usability.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  9. #9  
    I think better hardware,from cars to phones,is a thing of the past.
    I know that I got a launch product. But thats no excuse for some of the lacking features, and it's become a worn out argument. No matter how small they are,they have been in the phone business for quite some time. I would imagine they employ more people than webos internals have. And after seeing what a handful of guys can accomplish on they're off time in 6 months, it becomes very worriesome to me,as to why palm hasn't been able to keep pace with them. Maybe there is no functional gpu or linux tools for webos yet? Maybe thats where all they're time is going for now. But to see a product that was as raw and unready for the market as the pre was, and not make any noticible advances in 6 months and several upates,well,it just gets aggravating.
    Also, I'm not overly concerned with the rate of app devolpment. I knew that would take time. But waiting 6 months for legitimate text forwarding? C'mon. 6 months should've given us video. What if HP jumps me for bad talking his palm, I currently have no way to film it.
    Last edited by redninja; 11/16/2009 at 11:24 PM.
  10. #10  
    as far as flash goes don't get your hopes up about that in case you do not realize early 2010 can mean up to the middle of june, and judging palms other release deadline timeframes such as the app catalog I would lean towards may at the earliest. And lets not forget people always tend to leave out that everybody other than apple will also be getting flash so no edge for palm there.
  11. #11  
    Agree quite a bit with Kev. And I'd even modify that to say "No, it won't support graphics intensive gaming". It does have a few pretty decent games that are perfect time-wasters, which for me, is the only use for games on my phone. For other portable gaming needs, I have a DS Lite.

    And I continue to take issue with anyone who says that the issue is that the SDK is in Javascript. No, the SDK's biggest issue right now is that a lot of APIs aren't available yet. I happen to agree wholeheartedly that most of a phone's needs can be handled by Javascript and HTML. The issue is that Palm doesn't have all the APIs completed for say microphone access, and maybe a little that not all of the Canvas tags are supported.

    Don't get me wrong, there's some neat toys that probably can't be done on Javascript, (like that oft-requested T-Pain app that I'm sure someone is going to bring up), but to many of us here, our phones are more of a tool than a toy, and most useful software can be done that way.
  12. #12  
    I agree with a lot of what Derek said. But my conclusion is different. Palm is doing the right things, it's just taking longer than many of us had hoped. The html/javascript/css apps were supposed to trade speed and sheer capability for ease of development, which should make for a huge number of apps, and I still think that's the case, but we didn't expect the app catalog to be in beta for so long.

    I have no doubt that we'll eventually see gpu and native Linux support--the benefits are just too good to pass up--but wiring up the interface just right will take time.

    The hardware (if it's working right) is good on the inside, and the form factor suits me. In the end, that's why I've still got a Pre. It fits me. I spend so much time with my phone, I really need a good fit. It's a very personal choice, really.
  13. #13  
    Just one more thing I wanted to note. I think it's hilarious how on the desktop, everything is moving towards Web Apps, yet when Palm capitalizes on this, everyone complains that it's Web Apps.

    Perfect example, I just installed the Office 2010 Beta on my PC, one of the new huge features in it is Web App support so that when I'm on another computer without it installed, I can still edit my documents.

    There's a ton of other key software suites that are starting to incorporate the Web as well - Photoshop has a web version, for example, and Google is doing a netbook OS based around it.

    But Palm does it on a phone (which arguably is the best case for Web Apps anyway), and it's heresy?
  14. #14  
    Yeah, if Palm can integrate the GPU and webGL soon, this should shut a lot of critics up. WebOs's biggest problem is performance right now, and if they can implement this beast, it will be a HUGE win for Palm and its customers.
    Developer of:

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    Discuss my apps in my developer forum
  15. johnflo88's Avatar
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    #15  
    x2, i finally got it and no more daydreaming with my pre!
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    Much of what Derek wrote is fact, and objective. Disagree with it if you will but it's a mistake to call it wrong. In addition, there is way too much Palm allegiance showing through here. I especially take issue with this statement:

    "They will have a core group of quality developers putting out great apps."

    Wishful thinking. Until Palm creates a real SDK, there will not be great apps or a core group of quality developers. If you think otherwise, then you're in for a world of disappointment. One only need look at the current app abominations to see what I mean.
    Unfortunately, "great" apps, and "quality" developers aren't matters of fact, they're matters of opinion. I think that's the "core area" where you find disagreement.
  17. #17  
    If If If If...........wait wait wait wait..............in 3 months, in 3 more months, in 3 more months........................................................................

    Man I give you guys credit you refuse to give up!!!!!!

    I honestly do not think the build quality of these phones are good enough to hold out till then, plus everybody will be due for an upgrade by then.

    I would be looking more towards the pre 2 at this point!
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    apparently you guys did not read all the comments to the article because an overwhelming amount of people agreed with Derek.

    kind of funny isn't it hp haven't me and you been arguing about all of these points for 2 days now......lmao
    What in the world does other people's comments have to do with anything? Don't you get it, you can't argue that someone is wrong in their opinion. If 99 people out of 100 do not like the Pre, and 1 person does, it doesn't mean that person is wrong, it only means he likes it.

    I really think you need to find a lover or something. I'm beginning to feel like I'm being stalked here. You complain about being quoted, act as if you're being "fought" with, yet you keep calling me by name. If you can't play the game, don't get in the ring...
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    If If If If...........wait wait wait wait..............in 3 months, in 3 more months, in 3 more months........................................................................

    Man I give you guys credit you refuse to give up!!!!!!

    I honestly do not think the build quality of these phones are good enough to hold out till then, plus everybody will be due for an upgrade by then.

    I would be looking more towards the pre 2 at this point!
    Bye then. Most of us aren't sticking around out of the charity of our hearts, but because it works for our needs, while at the same time having a ton of potential for the future.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    ...
    What if HP jumps me for bad talking his palm, I currently have no way to film it.
    What in the world makes you think I'd want to "jump you" and do anything that's "film" worthy? You boys are just a little strange...
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