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  1. #81  
    The build quality to me has seemed pretty solid. I have had several drops, but only onto carpeted areas. The OP states the car only has a 2 inch drop, but if the phone fell off the seat, I'm guessing it fell closer to 2 feet. I feel that kind of fall onto concrete, or pavement, could damage just about any device depending how it lands.

    Anyhow, good luck with a replacement, and hopefully you can get one as solid as the Pre I have!
  2.    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I agree, that should be reasonable. However; to expect that they replace it with another model is not. Sorry, all of the other various defects doen't get to combine with "I dropped it" (in my opinion) to warrant a different device.

    If I dropped a Pre (or any phone) from a small height and it malfunctioned, I would hope that the carrier would replace it (especially with TEP, and with no deductable). I would not expect them to give me a new model, even if it was my 10th replacement. Dropping (or any other abuse) is a whole 'nother category from defect.
    Sprint has a list, called the Warranty Exchange List. That list contains phones that they can change you out to. It is absolutely not wrong to expect to get a different phone, the Touch Pro for example has one of the largest exchange lists, you can swap it for almost anything they sell, including the Touch Pro 2. The only reason I can't get a different phone is because the list for the Pre only has 2 phones on it, a new Pre, and a Prefurb. I just got back from Sprint, spoke with the store manager, and he's actually trying to set things right. He showed me the Exchange List, also showed me the warehouse has no new Pre's in stock, only refurbs, but he gave me his card, which also has his cell, and told me to call him once a week until they have new Pre's in the warehouse, and he'll order me a brand new one, regardless of whether the Prefurb they ordered today is bad or not.
  3.    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I'm not sure that I agree about the build quality issue. Folks on a forum like this tend to be pickier, plus there is definitely something of a "mod attitude" on such things ("Hey, mine wobbles a little too, I'm going back to Sprint"...)

    Personally, if I had to take 3 phones back in three months, I'd probably be asking for another model (I had two Centros with cracked screens, and asked if I could go back to a Treo 755p), unless I was really happy with general use of the phone. Personally, were I to start having issues like that with the Pre, I'd probably put up with several (I didn't like the Centro...).

    That said, asking for and expecting are different things...
    The build quality is definitely an issue, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be someone in the Sprint store every time I went in to have their Pre replaced under warranty. They are getting replaced like crazy. I think I've been more than patient, I've also been more than forgiving for oreo effect, blotchy screen, etc, I've gone up to bat for the Pre more than enough, but enough is enough. I don't think there is anything wrong with drawing the line at 5(well, 6 now) phones.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    The build quality is definitely an issue, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be someone in the Sprint store every time I went in to have their Pre replaced under warranty. They are getting replaced like crazy. I think I've been more than patient, I've also been more than forgiving for oreo effect, blotchy screen, etc, I've gone up to bat for the Pre more than enough, but enough is enough. I don't think there is anything wrong with drawing the line at 5(well, 6 now) phones.
    I understand your frustration completely; however, you are still talking anectdotal information. The only place I see reports of multiple returns are forums like this; and typically, the returns are one user, different problems.

    I can understand why you're convinced there's a build problem. I've got the same device I bought on June 6 - I hope you can understand why I'm not convinced...

    Regardless; I'm glad they're going to get you a new Pre. I had understood that a Pre was not going to be acceptable regardless.
  5.    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I understand your frustration completely; however, you are still talking anectdotal information. The only place I see reports of multiple returns are forums like this; and typically, the returns are one user, different problems.

    I can understand why you're convinced there's a build problem. I've got the same device I bought on June 6 - I hope you can understand why I'm not convinced...

    Regardless; I'm glad they're going to get you a new Pre. I had understood that a Pre was not going to be acceptable regardless.
    I can flip the new Pre and get a phone I actually want.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    I can flip the new Pre and get a phone I actually want.
    Sounds like a plan.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I'm not sure that I agree about the build quality issue. Folks on a forum like this tend to be pickier, plus there is definitely something of a "mod attitude" on such things ("Hey, mine wobbles a little too, I'm going back to Sprint"...)

    ...
    As someone who has had to replace his Pre far more times even than the OP I really resent this attitude that if people have problems with their Pre then it's because they're being "picky." I am a tech nut and I buy lots of toys and I rarely have to exchange them. I have had probably 10+ different cell phones over 15 years or so before I bought the Pre and I never had to exchange any of them (not even the super crappy Treo 700p). I have bought 2 phones since the Pre (a Centro and a Hero) and I haven't had to exchange either of those phones.

    I understand that in your world Palm is perfect and you feel the need to blame anyone except them for the shortcomings in their products but at this point I believe there is a plethora of evidence (anecdotal or not) to suggest that the real world is different than yours.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl View Post
    As someone who has had to replace his Pre far more times even than the OP I really resent this attitude that if people have problems with their Pre then it's because they're being "picky." I am a tech nut and I buy lots of toys and I rarely have to exchange them. I have had probably 10+ different cell phones over 15 years or so before I bought the Pre and I never had to exchange any of them (not even the super crappy Treo 700p). I have bought 2 phones since the Pre (a Centro and a Hero) and I haven't had to exchange either of those phones.

    I understand that in your world Palm is perfect and you feel the need to blame anyone except them for the shortcomings in their products but at this point I believe there is a plethora of evidence (anecdotal or not) to suggest that the real world is different than yours.
    Sorry bub, but you've taken a generality and applied it personally. I never said, nor implied that you, or any individual is being too picky. However, I do not accept that the sample on this forum is a valid sample, for the reason I stated.

    As far as your asinine idiotic self-serving statement about my view of Palm's "perfection" and my "blaming" anyone - if your ability to read and comprehend resembles the care you gave the Pre then yeah, I can understand your problems.
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    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I understand your frustration completely; however, you are still talking anectdotal information. The only place I see reports of multiple returns are forums like this; and typically, the returns are one user, different problems.

    I can understand why you're convinced there's a build problem. I've got the same device I bought on June 6 - I hope you can understand why I'm not convinced...

    Regardless; I'm glad they're going to get you a new Pre. I had understood that a Pre was not going to be acceptable regardless.
    Yes, but that is what makes a survey, samples taken from real world users. I think (again my opinion) that issues here spill into the outside users away from precentral. I would believe that the same build issues myself and others here have and do still have also are happening to "non-Precentral users". While I agree that we on this site as a whole may be a little more critical than others, but it would make sence that this is a wide product flaw and not isolated to Precentral users. I still am hoping that Palm pulls it together and makes it a product that we all can be proud of. It is just going to take longer than myself and others are willing to wait. With that said, I will keep my Pre and when it starts meeting MY needs, I will return to it.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by awrnsmn View Post
    Yes, but that is what makes a survey, samples taken from real world users. I think (again my opinion) that issues here spill into the outside users away from precentral. I would believe that the same build issues myself and others here have and do still have also are happening to "non-Precentral users". While I agree that we on this site as a whole may be a little more critical than others, but it would make sence that this is a wide product flaw and not isolated to Precentral users. I still am hoping that Palm pulls it together and makes it a product that we all can be proud of. It is just going to take longer than myself and others are willing to wait. With that said, I will keep my Pre and when it starts meeting MY needs, I will return to it.
    I've only seen a couple "outside" polls about Pre return rates, and though dated, they both clearly indicated that the return rate for the Pre was on par with the return rate for other smartphones.

    I've also noticed that in spite of the purported high return rate, third parties continue to rate the Pre high on their list of high-desire devices. I don't see that happening if there were extraordinarily high return rates.

    I also strongly suspect that anyone that owns a Pre has their "view" of the return rate skewed by their experience (whether good or bad). Thus, I tend to believe it's no worse than others, because I (and the dozen or so others I know from outside the forum that have Pres) haven't had any problem. I'm sure if I was on my 6th one, I'd share your view.

    Without empirical data, we're all just guessing...
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    ...Folks on a forum like this tend to be pickier...
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Sorry bub, but you've taken a generality and applied it personally. I never said, nor implied that you, or any individual is being too picky. ...
    LOL. You're the same as the guy who makes a general derogatory statement about members of an ethnic group and then tries to hide behind the fact that he didn't use anyone's name as if that makes it OK. It's the same twisted logic. You can say all you want that you never implied that a particular individual is being too picky but that's exactly what you're doing when you post an opinion like yours opinion in response to the posters on this thread. I think you need to look up the definition of "imply." But if you're going to spout an opinion like that you should at least have the guts to apply it directly to whomever you're talking about instead of using that lame I-never-actually-said-I-was-talking-about-you-or-anyone-in-particular cop out.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl View Post
    ..
    You can say all you want that you never implied that a particular individual is being too picky but that's exactly what you're doing when you post an opinion like yours opinion in response to the posters on this thread. I think you need to look up the definition of "imply." But if you're going to spout an opinion like that you should at least have the guts to apply it directly to whomever you're talking about instead of using that lame I-never-actually-said-I-was-talking-about-you-or-anyone-in-particular cop out.
    Excepte you're wrong. That's why I used a quote. The person I quoted was say that from what he read on here there were build qualities. Thus, it's not incorrect to generalize.

    And, as is typical for you, you decide to turn it personal. The little claim of racism is pretty much capper. Shame too, if you're arguments were genuine, you would be able to do so without the personal attacks.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Sorry bub, but you've taken a generality and applied it personally. I never said, nor implied that you, or any individual is being too picky.
    Do you understand what you're saying here?

    1. "Folks on a forum like this tend to be pickier"
    2. "I never said, nor implied that you, or any individual is being too picky".

    Or in logical form, where A is a forum member and B is someone who's too picky:
    1. Some A are B.
    2. No B.

    This is a contradiction.

    And: "Sorry bub, but you've taken a generality and applied it personally". As if generalizations are not meant to pick out individuals, and clipcarl is committing an error.

    Your zeal for winning an argument is taking you to some very interesting places.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    Though to be fair, it's difficult to extrapolate the data from a small group of people in these forums having hardware issues to suggest wider trends...
    small polls may not be super accurate and do not have to be taken as that... but they are not completely off at times and can also be helpful and at least offer insight that their 'might' be an issue if the numbers are consistent over time. sometime over a longer period of time you find out they are pretty accurate.

    small number of people maybe in this forum but look at it also that they also represent all different areas around the country so not an isolated issue.

    look at many other posts of various topics and the frequency of them saying this is my 2nd, or 3rd phone... on other forums, look at how often you see that kind of frquency. really, in other forums and other vendors i do not see that kind of frequency unless they do have an issue.

    look at other issues that were not made into polls or surveys but where posted and noted by other people with high frequency and you see there was genuine issue... LOST CONTACTS... and then you hear about the servers, random shutoffs leading to bad batteries, cracked screens.

    Look at the Oreo effect that this forum has names and made famous... not an exhangeable issue now i guess because we know it is not a defect but just a character flaw .

    this forum and even small polls can be useful and can show potential problems and overtime even shown to be proven correct. heck, it's only been 6 months too. lets see after a 2 year contract period what the final verdict. maybe we need a more recent survey/poll then and keep checking
  15. #95  
    lately been seeing posts of people saying touchscreen dead with some frequency six months out... have to see over few more months. just an observation.

    and also... in those surveys too it shows people with no exchanges... 60+% last i saw... so it does show the MAJORITY of people have had no exhanges so no hardware issues and not surprising to see people say they have no problems. The people with exchanges are still a minority but the argument is if it is higher than normal.

    i have witnessed issues outside this forum first hand through coworker that i factor in too... coworker with a pre and he likes his 2nd one but brand new days old, his first had screen discoloration on bottom of screen... something i have seen many times on this forum.

    time will tell. palm took care of the battery fit issue but surprised they didnt fix the oreo... maybe bad design cause, even though its new, my co worker has a Droid and that slider will not wiggle and doesnt look like it ever will.
    Last edited by donm527; 11/21/2009 at 06:37 AM.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Do you understand what you're saying here?

    1. "Folks on a forum like this tend to be pickier"
    2. "I never said, nor implied that you, or any individual is being too picky".

    Or in logical form, where A is a forum member and B is someone who's too picky:
    1. Some A are B.
    2. No B.

    This is a contradiction.

    And: "Sorry bub, but you've taken a generality and applied it personally". As if generalizations are not meant to pick out individuals, and clipcarl is committing an error.

    Your zeal for winning an argument is taking you to some very interesting places.
    Wrong formula.

    What I said is some A are B. When talking to a given A, there is no assertion that the particular A is a B, because only some A are B.

    What ClipCarl extrapolated was "you said some A are B, I'm an A, therefore you're making claims about me in particular"

    With the premise "Some A are B", concluding "I'm A, therefore I must be B" is incorrect.

    Let me put it another way for you, real life.

    On this forum, there was much discussion about poor reception at home, and the fact that Sprint was giving away Airave's (and the service) to some folks who had problems

    That generated a flurry of folks claiming to have problems. Some of those folks were suddenly being picky about the ir perceived problems, some were just out and out scamming Sprint, and some were having legitimate problems.

    Me saying the above statement does not say that everyone was scamming, or that any particular individual was scamming. It only says that the there is a higher concentration of folks on this forum reporting problems, because of the herd effect.

    Finally, don't know where you learned logic, but your summarization of what I said is simply incorrect.

    It is a correct generalization to say that women typically make less than men. That does not say that any one particular woman makes less than I; but that doesn't detract from the generalization.

    I do think your zeal to attack me personally is a little... disconcerting. Are you that angry with everyone that simply disagrees with you?
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Wrong formula.

    What I said is some A are B. When talking to a given A, there is no assertion that the particular A is a B, because only some A are B.

    What ClipCarl extrapolated was "you said some A are B, I'm an A, therefore you're making claims about me in particular"

    With the premise "Some A are B", concluding "I'm A, therefore I must be B" is incorrect.
    Again:

    1. "Folks on a forum like this tend to be pickier"
    2. "I never said, nor implied that you, or any individual is being too picky".

    In statement 2, you exclude any individual, not just clipcarl. So here you're saying that members on this forum tend to be pickier, and clipcarl protests, so you turn around and say that you're not applying this to him or any individual. Well then, there must be someone you would apply this to, but you say there isn't.

    I'm also on my 6th Pre. Is it because I'm too picky?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Again:

    1. "Folks on a forum like this tend to be pickier"
    2. "I never said, nor implied that you, or any individual is being too picky".

    In statement 2, you exclude any individual, not just clipcarl. So here you're saying that members on this forum tend to be pickier, and clipcarl protests, so you turn around and say that you're not applying this to him or any individual. Well then, there must be someone you would apply this to, but you say there isn't.

    I'm also on my 6th Pre. Is it because I'm too picky?
    Sorry you misinterpreted. I naver said "no individual" I said "any", as in any particular individual. Here's another example. There are murderers in Texas. That state ment is true, but I'm not talking about any particular person, including myself.

    I thinl, as a group, we are pikier on this device. I cannot extroplate that to any individual though, without knowing more about them, including you.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Sorry Elysian, I have to disagree with you this time. At first, I was prepared to totally ignore the post, then I saw it was from you, and thought "Oh no, he got another badly built Pre" and decided to take a look. When I saw you dropped it, then my thought was "Well, at least this time it's not Palm's fault".
    agreed.
  20. #100  
    Many people have spoken about the number of times that they have had their pres replaced, countered by a number of people who state that they are still using their originals. We really cannot make any solid, broad conclusions based on any of the data that one may collect on a forum such as this, as many people, likely the majority, choosing to engage in discourse here may either be 1. looking to enhance the device (enthusiasts), or 2. seeking help online regarding a pertinent, albeit negative device issue. There also has been some discussion as to whether or not the community here is "pickier" than the general smart-phone community.

    THUUUUUUUS, we really don't know, and I think other posters have pointed this out before, but again, we really don't know how many people who have pres have had to return them due to "poor build quality" as the numbers aren't available to us. The amount of posts here swaying in one direction or another gives us no accurate picture, as the cohort, for those who are familiar with empirical, peer-reviewed scientific inquiry, is not randomized, uniform, controlled for confounds, nor is there is a standardized methodological approach in place, (i.e. just how far of a drop constitutes abuse, if there is a length at all from which a device may fall at all without enduring abuse, what method of data collection would be used: double-blind survey study? how is the pre user cohort at large randomized and represented appropriately, etc.) As for the precentral community members perhaps being "pickier" than others who own the pre and aren't engaged in forum discussion, another completely different study (double-blind?) would need to be conducted, again with controlled conditions.

    Really what I'm reiterating, is that our pre community here is much too niche-y and small when one attempts a comparison to the pre community at large not engaged in forum discussion and PERHAPS not experiencing "poor build quality" issues. A step toward making some sort of semblance of a salient hypothesis and/or research question would come with the release of statistics from Palm and Sprint, but that just isn't happening.
    Last edited by djcoronel; 11/21/2009 at 06:46 AM.
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