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  1. mk9027866's Avatar
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    #61  
    My Latest email from pandora:

    Two separate issues Michael

    We believe that a recent OS update has adversely affected the audio quality for Pandora on the Palm Pre - especially when using Bluetooth ehadsets, but also on wired headsets. We're working with Palm to see if we can get a resolution. In the meantime make sure you have selected the higher quality audio selection under Settings/Preferences in the Pandora application.

    With that setting we provide the highest bit-rate/codec combination that we can over that device. It's as good as regular Pandora on the web, 64k AAC+, but not the 192k MP3 available to PandoraOne subscribers over the web on a PC or a Mac. We don't have plans to go higher than 64k to mobile devices at this time.

    ___________________

    If even Pandora is saying there is a quality issue, why are people saying it still sounds fine? I know it will never sound as good as a CD but I used it everyday and it sounded great anyways. It really doesn't sound as good anymore.
  2. mk9027866's Avatar
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbird34608 View Post
    I emailed pandora and they sent me a link:

    http://pandora.debug.s3.amazonaws.co...ull-64kbps.mp4

    and asked me if it sounded bad. I told them yes. Lossy encoding schemes (.mp3, .mp4) may never sound as good as CDs, but they can definately be good enough. In my opinion, anything under 128kbps is good for only spoken content (Audio books, talk radio) and not music. It appears that the stream is at 64kbps. I have a hard time assigning 64kbps .mp4 to "High Quality". The compression artifacts are horrendous; especially in the higher frequencies. I hope this changes, but I have a feeling one of the reasons I got my pre is now unusable.
    I just took a pair of headphones and listened to your clip that you posted and it sounded O.K. It sounded like Pandora did before this mess. Then I connected the headphones to my Pre and ran Pandora. It doesn't even compare, it is TERRIBLE. The quality from the Pre is not the same as that clip.
  3. Daemon's Avatar
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    #63  
    So here's a question for ya. What happens if you browse
    to this thread with your Pre, and click on the .mp4 link above
    and let it stream? How does that sound?

    For whatever it's worth, on my Pre there's no difference between
    the sound quality of that .mp4 streamed directly and normal Pandora,
    and playing that .mp4 on my computer.

    ian
  4. dgcamero's Avatar
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       #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbird34608 View Post
    I emailed pandora and they sent me a link:



    and asked me if it sounded bad. I told them yes. Lossy encoding schemes (.mp3, .mp4) may never sound as good as CDs, but they can definately be good enough. In my opinion, anything under 128kbps is good for only spoken content (Audio books, talk radio) and not music. It appears that the stream is at 64kbps. I have a hard time assigning 64kbps .mp4 to "High Quality". The compression artifacts are horrendous; especially in the higher frequencies. I hope this changes, but I have a feeling one of the reasons I got my pre is now unusable.
    Thanks blackbird...

    My Pandora used to sound considerably better than the song you linked. It's now just trash. Possibly slightly worse than the linked song...
  5. #65  
    It was mentioned several posts above, and is unrelated to sound quality, but has anyone noticed that you can no longer pause/play with the headphones button? Also, you can no longer tap the buttons on the notification on the lock screen to pause/play/skip.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  6. Daemon's Avatar
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    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    It was mentioned several posts above, and is unrelated to sound quality, but has anyone noticed that you can no longer pause/play with the headphones button? Also, you can no longer tap the buttons on the notification on the lock screen to pause/play/skip.
    Yes, it's a known bug. Saw it mentioned in one of the front page
    articles when 1.3.1 first came out.

    ian
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    Yes, it's a known bug. Saw it mentioned in one of the front page
    articles when 1.3.1 first came out.

    ian
    I wonder why no one is complaining about it. Perhaps they are little used features, but I use both of these a LOT with the music player and was disappointed to see Pandora lost the functionality when I fired it up recently.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  8. #68  
    So I did some digging into the Pandora source. It appears that there are actually three different sound quality settings: High, Medium, Low. If you are connected via WIFI it plays the "High Quality" stream. If you are on a Cell network AND you have the high quality option selected in the preferences menu it plays "Medium Quality". If you are on a cell network and do not have the high quality option selected in the preferences menu it plays "Low Quality". I looked at the source of version 1.0.0. You can see this in:
    com.palm.pandora\app\core\model\track.jsjsjs
    It is possible to trick pandora into thinking that you are on a WIFI network even if you are on a cell network. When you do this, the quality is darn near what is used to be.

    If anyone is interested in the details of making this work let me know. If anyone has an older version of pandora I'd be curious to see what changed. I suspect that having the high-quality button selected in prefs. actually gave you high quality and not medium quality like it does now.

    Just my 2 cents.
  9. Daemon's Avatar
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    #69  
    I have a backup from a month ago, just before 1.3.1 and that
    piece of code is the same in Pandora, which means if if that behavior
    is new, they did not introduce it in 1.3.1 itself.

    ian
  10. djmcgee's Avatar
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    #70  
    Remember that the update for Pandora (1.0.0) came out before 1.3.1. The button was broken on the Pandora update and many thought the WebOS update (1.3.1) would fix it. Pandora claimed a change in the API but apparently 1.3.1 did not fix it. The same could be with the quality "selector".

    Mine still sounds the same btw.
  11. Daemon's Avatar
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    #71  
    Yes I remember. I'm just weary of *everything* being blamed on 1.3.1
    when many are really app problems. It's even in the subject of this thread.
    *If* this medium quality thing is what people are hearing, then it has nothing
    to do with 1.3.1 itself.

    And yes, there was an API change in 1.3.1 that fixed a long time bug
    in Pandora (and all other streaming audio apps). If you paused
    a stream, it would start spinning and burn about 300mA of current
    (over 25%/hr drain). After 1.3.1, a paused stream uses no juice.

    ian
    Last edited by Daemon; 12/09/2009 at 10:13 PM.
  12. mk9027866's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbird34608 View Post
    So I did some digging into the Pandora source. It appears that there are actually three different sound quality settings: High, Medium, Low. If you are connected via WIFI it plays the "High Quality" stream. If you are on a Cell network AND you have the high quality option selected in the preferences menu it plays "Medium Quality". If you are on a cell network and do not have the high quality option selected in the preferences menu it plays "Low Quality". I looked at the source of version 1.0.0. You can see this in:
    com.palm.pandora\app\core\model\track.jsjsjs
    It is possible to trick pandora into thinking that you are on a WIFI network even if you are on a cell network. When you do this, the quality is darn near what is used to be.

    If anyone is interested in the details of making this work let me know. If anyone has an older version of pandora I'd be curious to see what changed. I suspect that having the high-quality button selected in prefs. actually gave you high quality and not medium quality like it does now.

    Just my 2 cents.
    I would love to do this mod or patch that you found. What do I have to do?

    Edit:

    I just ran out to my car where I always listen to Pandora and did this little test. I loaded Pandora with EV and listened and it was pretty terrible. Then I switched to WIFI and reloaded Pandora and Viola! it was just as good as it was before. It sounded much better! BTW, for the people saying that they don't hear a difference, it could be the stereo that you are listening on. On my computer speakers which is a pretty nice Logitech set, I don't hear a difference, but in my car where I have a great stereo I do. The truth is, the difference isn't that huge, but its definitely there.
    Last edited by mk9027866; 12/09/2009 at 07:11 PM.
  13. #73  
    Make the following changes to the following files inside /var/usr/palm/applications/com.palm.pandora/app/core/

    app_globals.jsjsjs $Line$ $37$ $change$ $to$
    this.networkType = AppGlobals.NETWORK_WIFI;

    device_services.jsjsjs $Line$ $106$ $change$ $to$
    AppGlobals.networkType = AppGlobals.NETWORK_WIFI;

    device_services_depreciated.jsjsjs $Line$ $106$ $change$ $to$
    AppGlobals.networkType = AppGlobals.NETWORK_WIFI;

    This would probably work by making only the first 2 changes, perhaps even by only making the second change. I have not tested it like that though.

    I dont know how to make patch files. It would be cool if someone wanted to add this to Preware's list of patches and call it "Force High Quality in Pandora" or something.
  14. mk9027866's Avatar
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    #74  
    Whats the best way to pull the files off, edit them, and put them back?

    Thanks

    Mike


    BTW I'm going to post this info in the patch forums and hope for the best!

    Thanks Again!
  15. Daemon's Avatar
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    #75  
    Wouldn't it be easier to edit line 177 of app/core/model/track.jsjsjs
    (the first file you mentioned) and change
    this.qualityMap = this.audioUrlMap.mediumQuality;
    to
    this.qualityMap = this.audioUrlMap.highQuality;

    ian
  16. #76  
    Daemon, I tried that first but did not seem to work as well. I made the changes you list and also played with the bitrates listed at the bottom of that file, but to no avail. Other people who are more familiar with javascript could probably get it to work, but I just made the changes I listed and everything worked.

    Im not sure if pandora phones home with what type of connection it has and there is a server response to that. You probably saw in there that pandora sends a device ID to its servers. I wonder if that were changed to whatever pandora.com sends as its ID, it would be possible to get the same quality as on the desktop.

    mk9027866, I use the terminal program from preware to copy it over to the media folder (which you can see from your computer when in USB mode)

    To get it out of the hidden partition:
    cp -r /var/usr/palm/applications/com.palm.pandora/ /media/internal/

    grab the files in USB mode and edit them, then repeat the above command in terminal swapping the directory paths.
    Last edited by blackbird34608; 12/11/2009 at 06:44 AM.
  17. #77  
    I think, as mk's email mentions above, that there are some serious sound issues in 1.3.1. I have problems using hibiki or broadcast radio on shoutcast streams as well. Worse when using bluetooth to the car's head unit. This needs to be addressed quickly. This is one of the main things I use my phone for, and I invested in a car stereo for the bluetooth streaming.
  18. mk9027866's Avatar
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbird34608 View Post
    Daemon, I tried that first but did not seem to work as well. I made the changes you list and also played with the bitrates listed at the bottom of that file, but to no avail. Other people who are more familiar with javascript could probably get it to work, but I just made the changes I listed and everything worked.

    Im not sure if pandora phones home with what type of connection it has and there is a server response to that. You probably saw in there that pandora sends a device ID to its servers. I wonder if that were changed to whatever pandora.com sends as its ID, it would be possible to get the same quality as on the desktop.

    mk9027866, I use the terminal program from preware to copy it over to the media folder (which you can see from your computer when in USB mode)

    To get it out of the hidden partition:
    cp -r /var/usr/palm/applications/com.palm.pandora/ /media/internal/

    grab the files in USB mode and edit them, then repeat the above command in terminal swapping the directory paths.
    I just wanted to report back that I applied your fix and it worked perfectly! Thank you again. I also want to tell everyone that I compared with another Pre side by side and the quality decrease is 100 percent due to the Pandora upgrade and not webos 1.3.1. His Pre was running 0.9.12 Pandora and the quality was great, just as good as mine was after the fix. After I applied my fix you could not tell the difference.
  19. Daemon's Avatar
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    #79  
    I fetched copy of Pandora 0.9.11 from a full backup I made in July, and I've just gotten
    through comparing all the new and modified files between old and
    new version using a good file difference viewer called tkdiff.
    It might surprise you to learn that none of the quality settings in the code have
    been touched between old version and new. Not a one. Nothing
    in track.jsjsjs, $app_globals$.$js$ $or$ $device_services$.$js$ $having$ $to$ $do$ $with$
    low/medium/high quality or networkType has been modified. There are no
    other files related to these vars.

    networkType defaults to CELL at startup, and is changed when the network
    type switches between cell or wifi, and the pandora client side logic to
    set the qualityUrlMap is the same as it always been. I was thinking that maybe the
    Pandora media server is serving up a different quality URL map based on some other
    information sent to the server that it didn't used to send before 1.0.0, but if that were
    the case then the hacks above wouldn't change anything They only change the
    networkType, not the later usage of the qualityUrlMap, so if the map maxed
    out with a medium quality setting, you'd never get higher. For the hacks to to work,
    the map must still have all of low/medium/high quality settings, and since nothing else
    in the code has changed that determines which map entry to choose... ...

    I need to figure out a quick hack to display the bitrate somewhere on the main track screen
    and then compare old and new versions. Bitrate is fairly integral to the normal display,
    as it actually determines the track length (in seconds) by dividing the content length (in
    bytes) by the bitrate (in bytes/sec).

    ian
    Last edited by Daemon; 12/11/2009 at 11:05 PM.
  20. Daemon's Avatar
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    #80  
    I think the difference is all in your heads and I can prove it.

    I just hacked my otherwise unmodified Pandora v1.0.0 to display the
    app selected bitrate value just after the time remaining (actually ends up on
    the next line and pushes the progress bar up a bit)
    With Wifi on and high quality setting on it shows 64 kbps.
    If I turn off Wifi and leave audio quality high, it also shows 64 kbps.
    If I turn off Wifi and turn off "higher audio quality" it drops to 32 kbps.

    I set the quality back to high then made the 3 changes specified above
    in app_globals.jsjsjs, $device_service$.$js$ $and$ $device_service_deprecated$.$js$
    and restarted Pandora and guess what the bitrate is now?
    You guessed it, still 64kbps.

    This is consistent with what the Pandora support rep told someone else
    here, that they don't stream higher than 64kbps to any mobile device.

    The fact that the hack doesn't change anything at all between
    medium and high quality is also consistent with what I found in the
    code and described above. The quality bitrate map comes from the
    Pandora media server and it appears to contain only the values 32 (low),
    64 (med) and 64 (high) so whether you're on Wifi, or just fooling into
    believing it's on Wifi it chooses the exact same bitrate. I know the
    bitrate value I'm displaying is accurate because I'm grabbing it from the
    same place that the stock code fetches it to calculate the track length
    from the content length sent by the media server. If this bitrate value
    were wrong, then the displayed track length would also be wrong.

    If someone really believes they've gotten it to stream at at 128 kbit/s,
    I can give you the 3 lines of code I added (one to each of 3 files)
    which will display the bitrate as I did. I'd love to see someone prove me wrong.
    There is *one* possibility left although I don't know how it
    would happen. The Wifi versus Cell hack above does cause it to
    *always* believe it's on Wifi even if you're both on cell and set to low quality.
    So if for some reason someone is otherwise stuck on the low
    quality setting, then this hack will force it to the same as high or
    wifi (64kbps instead of 32kbps). If this were the case, then my bitrate
    display hack would show 32kbps for every possible combination,
    until you did the wifi hack, then it would show 64kbps for everything.

    BTW, on a general audio quality note, I noticed that when I'm streaming
    while charging through the USB port, that I get some background
    noise (hiss, and occasional crackles and clicks), caused by a ground
    loop between charging and audio circuits. I hear it mostly when it's
    between tracks or paused. If I pull the charger plug out, the noise goes away.

    edit - Attached screen captures show bitrate and audioUrl for
    Wifi on
    Wifi off - high quality
    Wifi off - low quality

    Next, I'll try replacing my v1.0.0 with v0.9.11 add the bitrate display hack
    and see if there's any difference. I expect none.

    ian
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Daemon; 12/12/2009 at 01:39 AM.
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