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  1. awrnsmn's Avatar
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    #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    * Actually- That was a woman (at the drive-thru).
    Ok ...... continue ....
    And also....the fact of that suit was that McDonalds had documented that the coffee machines were defective in over heating the coffee. Instead of fixing it, they ignored it. That coffee caused 3rd degree burns so severe, that woman had to have several skin grafts. That my friend is no doubt a serious injury and IS McDonalds fault. You can say well it's coffee you knows it's going to be hot......that was rediculous on McDonalds part and should have never happened to the women. At best, she should of just had 1st degree burns and had to change her cloths. I for one will never ridicule her for her suit, after KNOWING the full story and hearing how bad it actually burned her.
  2. #122  
    From my perspective as a 13-year Palm user (Pilot 1000/Professional upgrade, Palm III, Palm IIIxe, Tungsten C, [awful]LifeDrive, [amazing]T|X, and now Pre), those who complain about the "need" for patching are way off-base. A few thoughts:

    1. Patching does not void any warranties, nor is it illegal. Unlike Apple's approach with the iPhone, Palm chose from the start to base webOS on an open framework, incorporating the open-source Linux and other open-source components, encouraging and supporting development even while the SDK was largely restricted, and all-but-openly acknowledging and approving of the patch process (see Chuq Von Rospach's recent tweet the other day).

    2. While I recognize that there aren't that many carryovers in staff, the company's philosophy about encouraging outside innovation hearkens back to the early PalmOS days, when tweaks and "patches" first implemented by third parties (through structures like Daggerware's wonderful Hackmaster) were later incorporated into PalmOS as a whole (drop-down menus being just one example).

    3. I do think (and have said publicly) that Palm was probably forced to release the Pre and webOS a bit prematurely, both by its own promise to get the device out by "first half 2009," and by Apple's impending release of the iPhone 3G S, and that the OS in particular was probably only 90-95% "baked." I also agree that there is still some more optimization to be done, especially with the PIM apps, but between the EAS implementation of 1.1 and the other update releases before and since, webOS has already come a huge way since June.

    4. The best part about patches, though, is that with them, I've got a Pre that works best for me, rather than being forced to change my habits to match the device. I want more icons on the launcher, although my eyes and fingers can handle 4x5 icons but not 5x5; I've got that. I worry about accidentally deleting important e-mails; I have a patch to add a confirmation. I use WiFi frequently and need to know at a glance to which SSID I'm connected; my launcher now has that information. At the same time, I care little about turning off roaming, so I've skipped that patch, and I found the hangup-by-closing-slider made me drop too many calls accidentally, so I uninstalled that patch after trying it. The point is, just like every laptop I buy ends up with essentially the same software and UI mix that fits my needs, I'm thrilled that my Pre can do so as well.

    Ultimately, particularly as webOS matures, there are few if any patches that will be necessary for all users, just as many of the common hacks in Hackmaster became obsolete as PalmOS matured. Even today, I can't point to many that are must haves for the non-techie Pre or Pixi user (other than perhaps those that fix the app installation limit, a clear problem Palm has yet to fix). Happily, though, I can install and use those that are must-haves for me. Your mileage will (and darn it, should!) vary. {Jonathan}
    Prof. Jonathan I. Ezor
    Writer, PreCentral
    Past Palm Real Reviewer
    @webOSquire on Twitter
  3. Riebs's Avatar
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    #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I personally hate patching, I prefer stock everything because I don't want problems and expect stuff to work. But as things stand with the Pre, some patches are unavoidable.

    I notice a certain hypocrisy from those who seem determined to deflect any blame from Palm.

    When someone complains about broken or missing functionality, people tell them to install patches and stop complaining. Still, when others complain about bugs without an apparent cause, people first accuse them of patching.

    You can't have it both ways. If you believe patching is a legitimate substitute for Palm's shortcomings, then accept the complications it creates. There is nothing glorious about patching. Only Palm can and should do the right thing and fix the problems.
    Your premise is ENTIRELY wrong! The people that support patching are not the ones who will call you out if you complain about a patch not working. They are the ones who will try to help you. It is the non-patchers who will give you hard time. There is NO hypocrisy here. They are two completely different groups of users.
    My Evolution
    Palm Pilot
    Palm V
    Clie N760C
    Treo 650
    Centro
    Pre
  4.    #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan I Ezor View Post
    From my perspective as a 13-year Palm user (Pilot 1000/Professional upgrade, Palm III, Palm IIIxe, Tungsten C, [awful]LifeDrive, [amazing]T|X, and now Pre), those who complain about the "need" for patching are way off-base. A few thoughts:
    Before we go into it, why are you putting quotation marks around "need"? Because that's not what I said, you are twisting my words. I only said that patches are not a substitute for Palm fixing problems. There is of course some reasonable baseline and it can be debated, but I'm talking here about an attitude that seeks to deflect blame from Palm by both telling people to patch instead of asking for an official fix, and to blame people for patching when they come here to troubleshoot problems that may well be Palm's fault.

    2. While I recognize that there aren't that many carryovers in staff, the company's philosophy about encouraging outside innovation hearkens back to the early PalmOS days, when tweaks and "patches" first implemented by third parties (through structures like Daggerware's wonderful Hackmaster) were later incorporated into PalmOS as a whole (drop-down menus being just one example).
    There is nothing innovative about patching to fix bugs. I can see the value in some of the hacks that Butler used to provide, but I'm talking about bug fixing through patching by users.

    3. I do think (and have said publicly) that Palm was probably forced to release the Pre and webOS a bit prematurely, both by its own promise to get the device out by "first half 2009," and by Apple's impending release of the iPhone 3G S, and that the OS in particular was probably only 90-95% "baked." I also agree that there is still some more optimization to be done, especially with the PIM apps, but between the EAS implementation of 1.1 and the other update releases before and since, webOS has already come a huge way since June.
    Why is it that EAS issues get fixed quickly? Because EAS problems generate bad "Enterprise" press for Palm. Notice that the way Palm fixed EAS in 1.2.1 was only to the extent that they could claim that it works. But they left people forced to unlock their screen every minute. That was left in there until 1.3.1, because this is a usability problem that won't get covered. Palm can check off "EAS support", even if the way it's implemented is intolerable to users. Go to Palm's support forum and see people's reaction following 1.2.1. In the end Palm is only shooting itself in the foot with those half-baked fixes.

    4. The best part about patches, though, is that with them, I've got a Pre that works best for me, rather than being forced to change my habits to match the device. I want more icons on the launcher, although my eyes and fingers can handle 4x5 icons but not 5x5; I've got that. I worry about accidentally deleting important e-mails; I have a patch to add a confirmation. I use WiFi frequently and need to know at a glance to which SSID I'm connected; my launcher now has that information. At the same time, I care little about turning off roaming, so I've skipped that patch, and I found the hangup-by-closing-slider made me drop too many calls accidentally, so I uninstalled that patch after trying it. The point is, just like every laptop I buy ends up with essentially the same software and UI mix that fits my needs, I'm thrilled that my Pre can do so as well.

    Ultimately, particularly as webOS matures, there are few if any patches that will be necessary for all users, just as many of the common hacks in Hackmaster became obsolete as PalmOS matured. Even today, I can't point to many that are must haves for the non-techie Pre or Pixi user (other than perhaps those that fix the app installation limit, a clear problem Palm has yet to fix). Happily, though, I can install and use those that are must-haves for me. Your mileage will (and darn it, should!) vary. {Jonathan}
    I have one patch installed. It lets the Music app save the current location for tracks tagged as "Books". From launch, I've waited for the Music app to allow me to continue playback for audio books, which are long tracks. It's impractical to leave the Music app all day just so I can resume playback on a particular audio book track. So I waited, and then in 1.2 Palm announced that they fixed the problem. But the fix was again half-baked. Someone at Palm decided to support a few common audio book tags, except the ones I was using. Why? Only God knows. I wasn't waiting for them to implement some obscure codec. It's just a freaking ID3 tag, that's readily available in iTunes. So I patched the Music app to also recognize "Books". That's the extend of patching on my phone, fixing bizarre omissions by Palm.

    Others can patch and make the device "theirs", whatever that means. Never meant anything to me. I just want a device that works. I'm not demanding advanced 3D graphics and or GPU drivers. I'm just asking for common sense functionality and Palm keeps dropping the ball with breaking stuff or leaving stuff out arbitrarily. It's just maddening.

    Lets have a look at the latest 1.3.1 update. Palm now again tied system alert volume with the ringtone. Why? Audio controls on a mobile device are very important. Palm itself shows off the physical mute button on the Pre. How can they put a mute button and at the same time not let the users control the volume of alerts? My whole office can hear the freaking ding dong, even when my headset is plugged in. Every email I get at night: super loud ding dong right next to my bed. What were they thinking? Has anyone even tested this before signing off on the release? I would love to know how on earth this was judged acceptable by any reasonable person.

    These, along with the calendar omissions demonstrate Palm's ersatz design. It's as if a completely new team stepped into Palm, looked at the old devices and said, okay, this and that look like cool features and we can talk about them in demos, lets put it on the Pre to show it's similar to the old device; and yet they fail to understand the foundation of these features. That a compressed day view is about efficiency, not about cool animations that bog down the calendar and that letting the user control audio lets the device be discrete in a business setting. I could go on.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  5. #125  
    I like how you have to turn the ringer volume all the way down before dialing a phone number so that everybody in a 100 yard radius does not have to listen to you, god forbid you have to call one of those touchtone based 1- 800 #'s.

    Ohh, and make sure you do not forget to turn your ringer volume back up when you are done or you may miss a important phone call, and with no led notification may not notice till an hour or 2 later.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan I Ezor View Post
    ...
    Your mileage will (and darn it, should!) vary. {Jonathan}
    Absolutely well-put!!! BTW, old-age must be creeping up on me; I had completely forgotten about HackMaster. You're right, it was a "must have" for early Palm users, and so much of those hacks became part of the OS.

    For those of you that are/were not familiar, here's an excerpt (followed by a link):

    The PalmOS is really nice, but there are some things that can only be done by supplementing or bypassing it entirely.
    ...
    It utilizes an open standard for separately-downloadable "Hack" files, and provides the means of managing them. It performs the dirty work of installing and uninstalling the patches, and even maintains a proper chain of Hacks that try to patch the same trap. It allows you to install and uninstall them in any order, instantly, without restarting (ask your desktop computer to do that!). Plus, it records your currently active set of extensions, and gives you the option of automatically reinstalling them after a soft reset.


    Sound familiar to any of you WebOS users?

    Here's the link for those interested: DaggerWare's HackMaster
  7. gwyneth's Avatar
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    #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    I like how you have to turn the ringer volume all the way down before dialing a phone number so that everybody in a 100 yard radius does not have to listen to you, god forbid you have to call one of those touchtone based 1- 800 #'s.

    Ohh, and make sure you do not forget to turn your ringer volume back up when you are done or you may miss a important phone call, and with no led notification may not notice till an hour or 2 later.
    LOL... Omg... You are just too much, I probably busted my gut laughing reading this! So well said, LOL

    As I said earlier on... I guess reflecting the thoughts of many other people...
    1. Do we love our Pre? Yes!
    2. Do we wish our Pre could be even better than it is? Of course!
    3. Is that why some of us hack the heck out of the phone? You bet ya! Thereby "personalizing" the phone to become uniquely ours.
    4. Is that cool and are we thankful WebOS is open source? Yes!
    5. Do we think Palm could have done better? Yup!
    6. Why? Because if we can hack the phone to become better than of course the maker of the phone, thus Palm, should have been able to do better.
    7. Is that whining when we express our opinions? No. We are merely stating our thoughts.
    8. In the end, knowing that WebOS is just a growing baby, do we love our Pre? YES!
    9. So does that mean that we are thankful that Palm created WebOS and the Pre, be it premature or long over due? YES!
    10. Last but not least... Again do we think Palm could and should do better with their updates? Yes, AND they should make the updates compatible with ALL the hacks... Because to some people, including me... The Pre out of the box IS a good phone... BUT it is the hacks that make it an AWESOME phone.

    There will always be two types of users of technology, both should accept and respect each other. The power users and the happy to use anything as is out of the box users. To make WebOS big and successful in ANY phone Palm should not only accommodate but embrace both by making the updates compatible. The hacks would be not needed at all had they been available already as options in the phone. The system for sure is capable of handling it otherwise the hacks would not work.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by deleonj1225 View Post
    it's gotten hyundai to the point where Toyota sees them as a threat. because it's growing and creating better cars by following the same path as Toyota...and no I don't own a Hyundai..
    I do own a Hyundia and I love it!
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by gwyneth View Post
    ...
    3. Is that why some of us hack the heck out of the phone? You bet ya! ...
    Sarah P baby!! Is that you?? Hey, I'm going to be at your book signing on the 4th of next month!!! Seeya then!!!
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by gwyneth View Post
    ...
    To make WebOS big and successful in ANY phone Palm should not only accommodate but embrace both by making the updates compatible. The hacks would be not needed at all had they been available already as options in the phone. The system for sure is capable of handling it otherwise the hacks would not work.
    Actually, as much I liked the "you bet ya", I disagree here.

    First, we cannot assume the hacks that are done are not creating a problem. Many of them are actually utilizing programming that Palm put in, then remarked out. They pulled it for a reason. Do we know the reason? Nope. Might be causing a problem, might just be unfinished. Might even be something someone thought would be cool to do, but hasn't "gotten permission" from the project manager (you might think that's crazy, but believe me... ask around about the flight similator in Excel).

    Secondly, the amount of programming required to maintain the hacks would likely be more work than the update itself. as it is, the update basicaly rewrites all of the javascript, html, css, graphic files, etc. To maintain that compatibility, the program would have to first check for file differences, then try to copy the differences over (in the cases of scripts, html, jss) or backup the change graphic file, and then move it back.

    Way too much for an update to try to do...

    I like the current system we have. I think possibly Palm could improve some on the backups they maintain (as I think is evidenced by the messaging problems those that applied the hack have had), but the "revert back, then update" I think is good.
  11. #131  
    To bad there's not a patch to prevent people from whining so much.
  12.    #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by nytemyst View Post
    To bad there's not a patch to prevent people from whining so much.
    Why do you call it whining? Do you think the situation is better than described?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  13. tejoe's Avatar
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    #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Why do you call it whining? Do you think the situation is better than described?
    i agree its not whining but as stated before this is more of a modding friendly community so there is going to be opposition to the opposition of normalcy.
    Complaining about patching on precentral is like complaining about bikes at a biker bar you may be completely right, but do think most are going to agree with you.
    You have a god given right to complain to palm and they have a god given right not to give a horses *** about you.
    They have a formula and it works for them and it has made a dedicated community whether you like it or not people like patching there phones.
    I agree that the average joe isn't one of them but the average joe wouldn't visit precentral long enough to understand modding in the first place.
    So coming to a an enlightenment forum like precentral is not speaking to ur choir so please don't feel sour when this church boos at you.
    I don't say this to start an argument just stating the obvious
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by tejoe View Post
    i agree its not whining but as stated before this is more of a modding friendly community so there is going to be opposition to the opposition of normalcy.
    Complaining about patching on precentral is like complaining about bikes at a biker bar you may be completely right, but do think most are going to agree with you.
    You have a god given right to complain to palm and they have a god given right not to give a horses *** about you.
    They have a formula and it works for them and it has made a dedicated community whether you like it or not people like patching there phones.
    I agree that the average joe isn't one of them but the average joe wouldn't visit precentral long enough to understand modding in the first place.
    So coming to a an enlightenment forum like precentral is not speaking to ur choir so please don't feel sour when this church boos at you.
    I don't say this to start an argument just stating the obvious
    I think this is a common misconception which leads to a lot of bickering on this site!!!!!

    I have looked all over this site and it does not say anywhere that it is geared towards the molding community.

    This is all I see:

    The #1 palm pre discussion forum on the net!
    (its at the top of the page next to the photo of the pre)

    I feel that the word discussion can relate to an infinite amount of discussions which would include both whining and modding

    therefore maybe the modders should stick to their threads, and the people with complaints can stick to their threads.

    In the end all that matters to precentral is the # of guests at the bottom of the page should anybody want that changed you should write a letter to precentral don't come on here and "whine" about it or go find a forum dedicated strictly to modding.

    Not arguing either just making a point
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    I think this is a common misconception which leads to a lot of bickering on this site!!!!!

    I have looked all over this site and it does not say anywhere that it is geared towards the molding community.
    I think your comment is a common misconception from those that specifically stick to a certain side of certain discussions in this forum. The average user (even in the smart phone community) does not spend their time on dedicated forums, picking apart various aspects of the phone.

    Even those that choose not to or don't have any desire to mod/patch/etc. their pre, if the are active on this forum, for the most part they have a more fundamental understanding of what that patching does/is and the possible side effects than the average user. Some of the folks in this thread that don't like patches or won't apply them for various reasons have a better understanding of the process than some of those that do patch (or buy a jailbroken phone, etc from other manufacturers).

    These forums, nor the majority of members on it that spend a decent amount of time here are average users. We expect more, complain more, and analyze more than the actual average user, regardless of patchers or non-patchers.


    This is still the best phone for me and for even the vast majority of the over critical/analytical community here that is why we all come here and continue to come here. There are some trolls (for me those are mostly the "I am done with palm/pre/web os" threads). In general the ones that continue to post (and OWN a webOS device) are here because at some level this phone actually fits their needs and desires.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSkoolVWLover View Post
    I think your comment is a common misconception from those that specifically stick to a certain side of certain discussions in this forum. The average user (even in the smart phone community) does not spend their time on dedicated forums, picking apart various aspects of the phone.

    Even those that choose not to or don't have any desire to mod/patch/etc. their pre, if the are active on this forum, for the most part they have a more fundamental understanding of what that patching does/is and the possible side effects than the average user. Some of the folks in this thread that don't like patches or won't apply them for various reasons have a better understanding of the process than some of those that do patch (or buy a jailbroken phone, etc from other manufacturers).

    These forums, nor the majority of members on it that spend a decent amount of time here are average users. We expect more, complain more, and analyze more than the actual average user, regardless of patchers or non-patchers.


    This is still the best phone for me and for even the vast majority of the over critical/analytical community here that is why we all come here and continue to come here. There are some trolls (for me those are mostly the "I am done with palm/pre/web os" threads). In general the ones that continue to post (and OWN a webOS device) are here because at some level this phone actually fits their needs and desires.
    not exactly sure what this has to do with my post???
    I agree with you I think people partake in posts that they can relate to and anybody who partakes in a post out side of what relates to them are trolling. trolling goes both ways a troll is a troll no matter what side he is on!!!!!

    The only point my post made was that this sight is not dedicated only to modders but to palm pre owners of all kinds and for anybody to think that there is only one topic you are allowed to discuss on here is absurd, that is why there is 20 different sub-categorys to post in.

    A discussion forum is a place to have a discussion about a certain topic this particular forum is about the palm pre and any thing involved with it.

    dis-cus-sion
    FUNCTION-noun
    1) consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
    2) a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing

    ***I did not see anything about modding in the definition of discussion***
    not trying to be rude here simply just making a point
  17. #137  
    The best thing about patches is that they are now available for both the Pre and the Pixi, using Preware

    http://install.preware.org

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  18.    #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by tejoe View Post
    i agree its not whining but as stated before this is more of a modding friendly community so there is going to be opposition to the opposition of normalcy.
    Complaining about patching on precentral is like complaining about bikes at a biker bar you may be completely right, but do think most are going to agree with you.
    You have a god given right to complain to palm and they have a god given right not to give a horses *** about you.
    They have a formula and it works for them and it has made a dedicated community whether you like it or not people like patching there phones.
    I agree that the average joe isn't one of them but the average joe wouldn't visit precentral long enough to understand modding in the first place.
    So coming to a an enlightenment forum like precentral is not speaking to ur choir so please don't feel sour when this church boos at you.
    I don't say this to start an argument just stating the obvious
    You misunderstand what this thread is about. I have nothing to say or complain about what people do with their devices.

    I pointed out that patches are not a substitute to involvement by Palm, as is commonly argued here, and this is most obvious when people post about problems and are suspected to patching, again exempting Palm and the product from fault.

    Go ahead and patch. Truly, it's none of my concern. I added a couple of small patches to Preware myself.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  19. punzada's Avatar
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    #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    The best thing about patches is that they are now available for both the Pre and the Pixi, using Preware

    http://install.preware.org

    -- Rod
    "smooth" :P
  20. #140  
    After reading almost every post in this threat I've decided...

    The Pre is becoming more trouble than it's worth... and so is this forum.

    Face it, people... this phone is in the back of the class until Palm gets serious about making it do stuff that almost every other smartphone on the market already can.
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