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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmagic01 View Post
    not my expectations. that's the market. if the Pre was such a success why is there even a debate?
    ...
    Guess there's not much point in trying to debate with a person that doesn't know the difference between facts and personal opinion.
  2. fredc1's Avatar
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    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Palm has been absent post-launch, the most critical time to fix issues. Instead they are on a world tour trying to acquire more customers and let the existing ones patch stuff on their own.
    You have lost almost all of any credibility you might have had with this statement. While some of your comments in the past might have been on point, alleging that they have been absent is laughable. And I believe that only a very small minority of users have felt the need to patch their phones.
  3. fredc1's Avatar
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    #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    What large updates? We are five months post-launch, the calendar is unusable, phone app fails to receive calls and memory issues are daily. I'm tired of listing everything that has been discussed over and over.

    When does Palm fix something? Lets look at the EAS fixes in 1.2 and 1.2.1. The fix was pushed after a weekend, because it gave Palm bad "Enterprise" headlines. In contrast, even though that fix left people forced to enter their pin codes every few minutes into their phone, there hasn't been any fix yet. What's the difference? The pin-lock issue doesn't register as an "Enterprise" problem, only a usability one, so it can wait along with the rest of the annoyances.
    I use the calendar quite a lot..and I find it quite usable, and I have never failed to receive a call that I can remember, and I don't seem to have any memory issues.

    So they have build issues quality problems that results in thousands of perple getting quite good phones, and a small number of users getting phones with problems...

    And I am one of the folks that has to enter a PIN every few minutes...it isn't a big problem for me to enter those 4 digits as I unlock it. Do I wish it didn't lock for 20 minutes instead of 3...sure, but it isn't something to wring my hands over and whine about incessantly.
  4. fredc1's Avatar
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    #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    The pin lock issue is enough to keep me from using Exchange. This is Exchange support "on paper", not something usable.

    Would you use Exchange if you had to unlock your device every 3 minutes? I'd rather carry another device instead or do without.
    Like I said...I enter a PIN every few minutes...takes like 2 seconds....not a big deal to me..
  5. #145  
    no phone will capture as many users as apple did in that short of time. why? because apple just isnt going for "a market" of ppl, they are also going after all the obsessed apple fan***s that will buy anything apple. (and before i get flamed on here by an apple lover let me say this - i know someone who bought an iphone when it first came out because "its a phone made by apple, everything ive used by apple is good so obviously this is going to be a good phone" (he lives and breathes by his macbook pro)

    so the point im trying to make is that apple has a pretty big fanbase who will jump onboard anything they make. yes, palm and other companies have their fanbases, but usually not as big and willing to use any product they come out with right away because of the brandname. Apple has been big in the news these past few years. palm on the otherhand has been seen as putting out the pre as a last ditch effort from going under.
    hmm - company whos big and has tons of resources to maintain their product?
    or company going under who needs their product like a prayer to save them?

    which sounds more appealing??
    and let me end this saying that i love the pre. ive used treos in the past and even my friends palm pilot haha. i am part of the palm fanbase willing to try their product out.

    many ppl however arent willing to do this. which is why i wasnt surprised at palms "sub-million" numbers in sales.

    point of post = companies are goign to have a hard time competing with apple until another big company comes out on top.


    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I understand.

    Reading through Delicious Morsel's post about halting development for webOS (not sure if this is still the case), it's striking to think what Apple has forced on everyone. There's this whole ridiculous bureaucracy of app review and approval. I'm trying to imagine what Palm must be going through trying to rationalize to itself why this is all of a sudden necessary. It seems that Dion and Ben are bringing some fresh perspectives so it's something to be hopeful about. Blindly emulating Apple won't work.
    I agree 100%. its hard to beat the king of the hill when they have a giant fort stationed up there (their apple/itunes ecosystem and developer support)


    Let me end with this. i honestly believe that there should be no "top dog". all this does is create a monopolistic product. we need competition to spur growth and inovation.
  6.    #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by fredc1 View Post
    You have lost almost all of any credibility you might have had with this statement. While some of your comments in the past might have been on point, alleging that they have been absent is laughable. And I believe that only a very small minority of users have felt the need to patch their phones.
    Strong words. Back it up with specifics. The biggest problems with the phone have not been addressed since launch: calendar performance and cumbersome UI, phone responsiveness and memory issues (too many cards). Actually, I suspect memory issues are the hidden cause for the phone failing to launch.

    Quote Originally Posted by fredc1 View Post
    I use the calendar quite a lot..and I find it quite usable, and I have never failed to receive a call that I can remember, and I don't seem to have any memory issues.
    That's not specific enough. I've taken great care in all my posts on this topic over the last few months to detail when and how the calendar fails. If I haven't done this on this thread it's because I can't repeat full page posts every time it comes up for discussion, and every time with a different and new person who jumps in to deny what I'm saying.

    The calendar has a few problems which, individually, seem trivial. But combined make the calendar unusable in a business setting.

    What's special about a business setting is the need to coordinate input with other people present. That is, you cannot enter and modify events at your leisure, but rather in keeping with someone else's pace. You are coordinating a new meeting or a change to an existing one and you have to keep moving while remaining responsive to other people. You need to be able to preview your time slots on particular days, find a series of events for that particular topic, person, or location. Enter the event quickly and accurately so you can move to the next one being discussed, and so on.

    Due to very sluggish performance and clumsy UI, it's not possible to keep up.

    It's not possible to search for your next meeting with a person when they bring it up for discussion and browsing day by day to look for it is excruciatingly slow and not something you can reasonably expect other people to understand and wait for.

    The homebrew QuickEvent and Agenda are helpful only in theory. In reality they are not a substitute for a working and well integrated calendar. Agenda cannot look far enough and quickly enough for me to search it; and without looking at the target day for a meeting, entering an event in QuickEvent is a crapshoot. Then there is the common situation of simply not being able to launch them due to "too many cards" errors in the most inopportune moments.

    If you're happy with the calendar I'm forced to conclude that your usage is very simple, and done on your terms and not in the context of coordinating meetings with other people. Or maybe you simply use your computer for that, and use the Pre for reference only. Maybe you write the meeting details in a memo and later enter it into the calendar at your pace. But you can't be doing this in real time, not possible.

    And let me say this: I've discussed this with people at Palm. They know it sucks, all the way to the top. Literally.

    So they have build issues quality problems that results in thousands of perple getting quite good phones, and a small number of users getting phones with problems...
    I'm on my 6th. All were replaced due to significant problems and I'm tempted to replace my current one due to a screen hot spot but I'm tired of going through this and don't want to take chances. That does give me a negative perspective on the issue and it's entirely legitimate. We don't know the numbers, but I can say that this is the first phone I've ever had to return, not to mention multiple times, and the first I've seen so many complain about mentioning the same issues. All in all, I think I'm very fair in my criticism of Palm, and I've noted in other threads and posts the positives about the Pre, some of which are significant.

    And I am one of the folks that has to enter a PIN every few minutes...it isn't a big problem for me to enter those 4 digits as I unlock it. Do I wish it didn't lock for 20 minutes instead of 3...sure, but it isn't something to wring my hands over and whine about incessantly.
    In reality, most people would still want to keep the screen timeout to the factory default of 1 minute, which is there to save power. And for many people, password complexity is determined by their IT department, and can be a chore to enter. I take it that you increased it to 3 minutes, which is the current maximum. You are one of the people who don't mind leaving the screen on for 3 minutes so you don't get locked out, and you don't mind unlocking numerous times a day. That's admirable of you, but it's very poor usability for a device meant to be used on the go. It's a deficiency that you're determined to live with, that doesn't make it acceptable.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    ...
    The calendar has a few problems which, individually, seem trivial. But combined make the calendar unusable in a business setting.

    What's special about a business setting is the need to coordinate input with other people present. That is, you cannot enter and modify events at your leisure, but rather in keeping with someone else's pace. You are coordinating a new meeting or a change to an existing one and you have to keep moving while remaining responsive to other people. You need to be able to preview your time slots on particular days, find a series of events for that particular topic, person, or location. Enter the event quickly and accurately so you can move to the next one being discussed, and so on.
    ...
    See, that's where you lose your credibility. That may be your business use for the calendar. There are literally millions of others that use a PDA celendar for business use, and the description above doesn't match everyone elses.

    BTW, the "particular topic" is really a stretch. "Topics" are typicaly very user specific. While my topic may be "server issues" when I meet with Dell, Dell's would be "Client issues".

    You continue to create very narrow uses, and declare that if they don't meet your narrowly defined use, it's a failure for all.

    Just ain't so...
  8. UF15's Avatar
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    #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    See, that's where you lose your credibility. That may be your business use for the calendar. There are literally millions of others that use a PDA celendar for business use, and the description above doesn't match everyone elses.

    BTW, the "particular topic" is really a stretch. "Topics" are typicaly very user specific. While my topic may be "server issues" when I meet with Dell, Dell's would be "Client issues".

    You continue to create very narrow uses, and declare that if they don't meet your narrowly defined use, it's a failure for all.

    Just ain't so...

    I actually agree with him. I also don't think he claimed it is a failure for all, as he went out of his way to say that he acknowledges that for some people, it works well. But he also mentions that their needs are much simpler than his. Based on what he said, I don't think his needs are unreasonable or his usage atypical. I think a great percentage of users need to use the calendar in the same way. No, universally, everybody doesn't need that, but a lot of people do.

    Where your "it's not me, it's you" argument sort of loses some water is that it isn't really that hard to make a usable calendar. Apple did it for iPhone, Google did it with Android, and, hell, Palm had been doing it for a decade before the Pre. This isn't a matter of getting the Pre to run Crysis at 60fps, it is to get a simple date calendar to function instantly and without hiccups.

    To this day there hasn't really been an increase in performance, nor even an attempt from Palm to address that. I know their resources are tapped, but, to me, that doesn't speak well to the future of the platform. And while I don't think they have abandoned these existing issues, I also don't feel like they completely care about a major issue that affects many (yes, not all) of their users. You can't bill the Pre as the phone for busy people and then ignore busy people's needs.

    I find your defense of Palm, against any accusations, to be unreasonable. Palm has done a decent job and should be cut some slack for doing so much, with so little, in such a small amount of times. But they aren't doing everything perfect, they are far from that. They could be doing a better job, even with their resources, at addressing existing issues with current apps. Instead they are spending time launching a Pixi that has no market, hacking iTunes and building browser-based development environments that will only create the most limited apps. I disagree with this strategy completely. You don't, and that is fine, but it seems like you believe everything they do is right.

    I realize you will also probably turn this into a long, winded debate about my thoughts and other semantics. You will also insist that at some point I lose all credibility because I made some sort of claim. So before we do that, I will just say, "You're right. You win."
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    I actually agree with him. I also don't think he claimed it is a failure for all, as he went out of his way to say that he acknowledges that for some people, it works well. But he also mentions that their needs are much simpler than his. Based on what he said, I don't think his needs are unreasonable or his usage atypical. I think a great percentage of users need to use the calendar in the same way. No, universally, everybody doesn't need that, but a lot of people do.
    Acutally, this is what he said:

    The calendar has a few problems which, individually, seem trivial. But combined make the calendar unusable in a business setting.
    and
    If you're happy with the calendar I'm forced to conclude that your usage is very simple, and done on your terms and not in the context of coordinating meetings with other people. Or maybe you simply use your computer for that, and use the Pre for reference only. Maybe you write the meeting details in a memo and later enter it into the calendar at your pace. But you can't be doing this in real time, not possible.
    That's a little more ... harsh... than your interpretation

    The fact is he quizzed me in detail over several posts about my use. Either he decided I'm lying (which he didn't indicate), or he's ignoring the conclusion that he claimed to have reached, that I must be a "power user" that can do it; in which case his claims above are false.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    Where your "it's not me, it's you" argument sort of loses some water is that it isn't really that hard to make a usable calendar. Apple did it for iPhone, Google did it with Android, and, hell, Palm had been doing it for a decade before the Pre. This isn't a matter of getting the Pre to run Crysis at 60fps, it is to get a simple date calendar to function instantly and without hiccups.
    Actually, that's not my arguement at all. I've said that it works for me, and it works for many others. That completely counters the argument that the calendar is "unusable in a business setting"; which is the argument he has made, and continues to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    I find your defense of Palm, against any accusations, to be unreasonable. Palm has done a decent job and should be cut some slack for doing so much, with so little, in such a small amount of times. But they aren't doing everything perfect, they are far from that. They could be doing a better job, even with their resources, at addressing existing issues with current apps. Instead they are spending time launching a Pixi that has no market, hacking iTunes and building browser-based development environments that will only create the most limited apps. I disagree with this strategy completely. You don't, and that is fine, but it seems like you believe everything they do is right.
    Far from it. "Right", means different things to different folks. I do believe they have done an excellent job in recovering a company that just about everyone has written off; however, I realize (and I'm sure they do as well), that this device is not for everyone. That's fine with me. However, just because someone can't use it their business needs does not mean that my business needs are "very simple".

    The fact is that I seldom used my original Palm devices (and Handera, and Sony) as true PDA tools, until I discovered DateBK. Even then, my "participation" was lukewarm at best; because all of that "entering of data" didn't suit my real need - getting that data of the PDA and into the system that I used primarily - my corporate system. Only when those tools became available did I really begin using it seriously. That use evolved over a number of years not weeks.

    Do I expect more of Palm now? Not really, because Palm didn't accomplish those needs for me. Intellisync, Pimlico, Novell, and Nokia did, but they all did it the Palm.

    Quote Originally Posted by UF15 View Post
    I realize you will also probably turn this into a long, winded debate about my thoughts and other semantics. You will also insist that at some point I lose all credibility because I made some sort of claim. So before we do that, I will just say, "You're right. You win."
    Funny you say that, I think in all the time I've been on this forum (six years), the post a few lines up was the first time I've used a claima bout "credibility"; but hey, if it suits your needs to trivialize the thoughts of others, have at it.

    Your thoughts are your own; however, I do notice the tendency of folks that come on here and bash the Pre to then trivialize the opinions of others. No, my calendar needs aren't "simple", just because I use the device. No, I don't believe that Palm or the Pre are "perfect" just because I happen to like the device better than other things that are out there.

    So, you are free to your own thoughts. You are even free to discuss them openly here. However, just because I (or someone else) chooses to disagree with you, doesn't make that less (or even more) than you.
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    ...
    And let me say this: I've discussed this with people at Palm. They know it sucks, all the way to the top. Literally.
    ...
    Now I'm really confused. If you've discussed it with Palm, "all the way to the top", why are you coming on a forum to discuss it again?

    I mean, I've seen others say that Palm reads these forums, and they hope to get Palm's attention; but if you've already discussed it directly with them, what's the purpose? How could you go higher than the "top"?

    Is this an effort to drum up support to get others to discuss it with Palm?
    Possibly by repeating the same thing ad nauseum you think they'll pay more attention than they have now?

    Seriously, if I had spoke to the "top" of a company about something that I believe as passionately as you appear to, and they didn't either give me a good answer as to why, or a good prediction as to when, I'd be dropping them as a company.
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by natureboy View Post
    I think Palm has made bad decisions, but I'm not sure that even a perfectly played strategy would have worked. A few stray observations:

    Numerous people have made suggestions about how Palm could alter their strategy, so I'll add a few things that I'm sure others have probably mentioned at some point:

    --Leak, leak, leak. If there are good things cooking with webos, selectively leak tidbits. Focus on generating excitement for webos 2.0 as a gamechanger (this strategy is easier if 2.0*is* actually a gamechanger, of course).
    --tweak the hardware. Part of the appeal of the Droid is it's killer hardware looks. A sexy metal Pre--particularly if introduced coincident with the launch on a new carrier-- can be hyped as a new version...even though it isn't really...
    --"cash for clunker" the Pixi. Blowout opening sales by spending some of the newly raised capital on making the Pixi $39 out the door, but only for the first week (or some such limited time). Or make it free. At this point, getting more webos units into consumer hands to make app development attractive (and this would occur independent of the quality of the SDK).
    --related to above, license webos. The closed apple type strategy made sense out of the gate. If it had caught on it would have been great for palm and for consumers who got a unified hardware/software solution. That strategy does not appear to be working. The ultimate goal would be to squeeze out some of Windows mobile's share and halt Android's advance.

    Anyway, my (long) two cents. I have no idea whether any of these suggestions could ignite the consumer fire that Palm needs. Here's hoping they find something that will.

    your ending points kinda make sense. if only it were that easy....
    Last edited by cnote1287; 11/06/2009 at 04:13 PM.
  12.    #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Now I'm really confused. If you've discussed it with Palm, "all the way to the top", why are you coming on a forum to discuss it again?

    I mean, I've seen others say that Palm reads these forums, and they hope to get Palm's attention; but if you've already discussed it directly with them, what's the purpose? How could you go higher than the "top"?

    Is this an effort to drum up support to get others to discuss it with Palm?
    Possibly by repeating the same thing ad nauseum you think they'll pay more attention than they have now?

    Seriously, if I had spoke to the "top" of a company about something that I believe as passionately as you appear to, and they didn't either give me a good answer as to why, or a good prediction as to when, I'd be dropping them as a company.
    I'm sorry you're confused, maybe it's your fixation on semantics? You can read my original post again where I ask if the premature SDK and app catalog were worth it given the Pre's unfinished state. I'll be here to repeat the question again if you're still confused.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I'm sorry you're confused, maybe it's your fixation on semantics? You can read my original post again where I ask if the premature SDK and app catalog were worth it given the Pre's unfinished state. I'll be here to repeat the question again if you're still confused.
    yes they were worth it, timely appropriat and sufficiant for most users, and to keep the company alive.

    it is a win.
  14.    #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by windzilla View Post
    yes they were worth it, timely appropriat and sufficiant for most users, and to keep the company alive.

    it is a win.
    Palm is still alive despite the SDK and app catalog. I argue that it could spend its resources much more productively on finishing the OS before making development on it public. The first impression of a laggy and buggy OS will be hard to overcome.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I'm sorry you're confused, maybe it's your fixation on semantics? You can read my original post again where I ask if the premature SDK and app catalog were worth it given the Pre's unfinished state. I'll be here to repeat the question again if you're still confused.
    Nah, that didn't confuse me. However, this (just like many other posts you're involved in) leads back to your dissatisfaction with the calendar. That's what's confusing. If you've discussed it with "the top" at Palm, why keep doing so here?
  16.    #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Nah, that didn't confuse me. However, this (just like many other posts you're involved in) leads back to your dissatisfaction with the calendar. That's what's confusing. If you've discussed it with "the top" at Palm, why keep doing so here?
    More quoting and paraphrasing...I find it dishonest, really. Why don't you just use your own words, provide your opinions and arguments? I'm here to debate your points, not alternative meanings of mine.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    More quoting and paraphrasing...I find it dishonest, really. Why don't you just use your own words, provide your opinions and arguments? I'm here to debate your points, not alternative meanings of mine.
    You find quoting dishonest? Interesting...

    I have provided my opinions, you just don't seem to like them.

    I'll ask again (and here's a warning, I'm likely to quote you...) why do you persist in the same complaint here, when you've already made that complaint to the top at Palm?
  18.    #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You find quoting dishonest? Interesting...

    I have provided my opinions, you just don't seem to like them.

    I'll ask again (and here's a warning, I'm likely to quote you...) why do you persist in the same complaint here, when you've already made that complaint to the top at Palm?
    Try again.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Try again.
    So, don't be bothered when others come to their own conclusions, when you decide to avoid direct questions.
  20.    #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    So, don't be bothered when others come to their own conclusions, when you decide to avoid direct questions.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
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