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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Can you just debate like a normal person instead of redefining and substituting my words? I have no idea what all this quoting and conjecturing about my thought process is supposed to explain.
    I didn't redefine your words, nor did I substitute anything.

    The overwhelming response you're getting on this thread is that yeah, it was worth it. I can understand why you don't think so. Palm hasn't "met your needs" (your own words, no substitution there). Meeting your needs probably wasn't one of Palms goals.
  2.    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I didn't redefine your words, nor did I substitute anything.

    The overwhelming response you're getting on this thread is that yeah, it was worth it. I can understand why you don't think so. Palm hasn't "met your needs" (your own words, no substitution there). Meeting your needs probably wasn't one of Palms goals.
    It was their stated goal. Remember, a phone for busy people, the fat middle between the iPhone and the Blackberry. Now, when I hear busy, I see a schedule in a calendar, not busy fingers playing Air Hockey. Maybe I misunderstood.

    How was it worth it to you specifically?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Based on what?
    Based on the fact that Palm pre has failed to impress the masses of smart phone consumers. Based on the 1400 palm pre complaints thread. Based on an app catalog with nothing worth downloading, based on the fact that the app catalog even with the trash that's in it is growing slower then it's biggest rivals was at this stage. Based on the fact that developer's have publically decided to stop developing for webos until palm "get's it's act together", based on a stock price that has fallen 40% in two weeks. Based on a calender app that can't function as many business users need it. Based on the inability to get out an sdk that gives access to the stuff developers need to make the stuff consumers really want. Based on my the fact that i've never seen another person since launch with a pre and it's not like i don't live near a **** load of people with cell phones, since it's lost all it's buzz to other phones, since even the palmcast podcast has people in it with multiple phones that would rather use a different phone. Since even the precentral forum is full of people mad at palm for it's inability to deliver basic functions in the phone they got on old phones. Nice OS but with a bunch of issues that need to be fixed. And crappy execution by Palm.
  4. dint56's Avatar
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    #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    We are now almost 5 months after launch. The Pre is bug ridden, the SDK is limited, not only technically, but also in what Palm lets developers use. The app catalog is mostly filled with trivial apps. By any objective criteria both have disappointed.
    Rant mode on :

    First off, people, these is a new phone, an extremely high end phone. I've had WinMo phones, Palm Phones, and various other type of smartphones.When the the Treos came out, they had issues. When the WinMo phones came out, they had issues. When Android phones came out they had issues. When the Iphone came out it had issues. Even up to now those type of phones have issues.

    A simple search in Google, or Youtube will reveal a lot. Do the Following, type "Iphone Issues" you will see the new and old phones had issues. Why is it that everyone thinks that the products are flawless. Especially Iphone users. let's look at a Wiki Article for Iphone - look for "iPhone OS version history" Iphone version 1.0 - 1.1.5, Second version 2.0 - 2.2.1, Third Version 3.0 - 3.1.2 - For all you dreamers of a perfect phone out of the box is nearly impossible. Even the point upgrades on the Iphones were major releases. Oh and lets not forget, Does everyone forget when Iphone launched at the beginning they could not even activate them because uhm.. they required that one little program called ITUNES!

    Let's see out of the Box a pre could do MMS, and Iphone... they just started. Out of the Box, we can change batteries, Iphone cannot. To get your battery replace you send off the phone, your central communication tool, just to change a battery??

    I personally got the phone in September, I love it, it has issues but not anything that causes me to say THIS IS TERRIBLE. I knew it's a completely new O/S and that it would be fixed.

    People these phones are complicated machines not toys.

    I love my pre, and cant wait for WebOS updates. Palm has shown they are dedicated and want to improve it. One thing would be if the OS updates were taking a long time, but they are not. 5 months for the amount of updates that Palm has done is amazing! Look at Iphone revisions and they have come out almost monthly when the phone came out with their OS upgrades, I think it' took them a few tries until they did not have to do any updates for a few months.

    I will end in this, I am not a Robot, I am not a Fruit lover, I am a person who likes my Pre. I waited patiently for the Pre and am glad I did. I love open platforms, and I think personally people will catch on to the Pre. With Homebrew apps, with webos internals, and Palm, I think all issues will get resolved. Let's have this discussion in a year... not within 5 months of a NEW O/S launch. Everyone forgets, this is an NEW O/S not a new Phone.

    Ranting mode OFF , I am now distressed (is that a word? )
  5. #105  
    This is copied from a post i did in the Cross-Platform Chat.

    Absent any other competition and sticking with sprint (for the next year or two), i'd get a Palm Pre because and in no particular order:

    1. Cards multitasking.
    2. Notifications
    3. Integrated synergy i prefer.
    4. Form factor. Easy to use real kb. Great size screen. Looks sharp.
    5. Easy as pie patches & homebrew. Mytether makes it a mifi.
    6. Frequent updates. Having the OS & the hardware will become an even greater benefit for palm users as time goes on and android devices fragment further.
    7. This forum. Home of homebrew and very helpful. Weekly podcasts.
    8. Promise of flash, docs to go, etc. As well as sideloading. Wait til api's to the mic get put in. Callrec? The sdk will improve.
    9. Touchstone in car can be nice, Pre integrates well with BT stereos
    10. Browser is superior. UI is just much better.
    I've been as critical as anyone with Palm, but i'd still honestly choose Palm if Sprint was my chosen carrier. It's really not much of a contest. I really do believe Palm has a product worth selling right now but just needs to do a better job advertising its benefits. As we all know, there's also much much room for improvement as well. The Pre has a great processor to last awhile as it gets more utilized.

    Nowhere did i list the current app catalog. It's there to be there. To say Palm has one. It's in beta. If you find something you like (there's a few there would be a must for me), consider it a bonus.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmagic01 View Post
    Based on the fact that Palm pre has failed to impress the masses of smart phone consumers. Based on the 1400 palm pre complaints thread. Based on an app catalog with nothing worth downloading, based on the fact that the app catalog even with the trash that's in it is growing slower then it's biggest rivals was at this stage. Based on the fact that developer's have publically decided to stop developing for webos until palm "get's it's act together", based on a stock price that has fallen 40% in two weeks. Based on a calender app that can't function as many business users need it. Based on the inability to get out an sdk that gives access to the stuff developers need to make the stuff consumers really want. Based on my the fact that i've never seen another person since launch with a pre and it's not like i don't live near a **** load of people with cell phones, since it's lost all it's buzz to other phones, since even the palmcast podcast has people in it with multiple phones that would rather use a different phone. Since even the precentral forum is full of people mad at palm for it's inability to deliver basic functions in the phone they got on old phones. Nice OS but with a bunch of issues that need to be fixed. And crappy execution by Palm.
    Ahhh, now I understand. So, in short, based on your expectations (Palm never said they wanted to "impress the mass of smart phone users", factually incorrect statements, and your impressions of what you think others wanted.

    OK, I'll grant you, based on that, they failed.

    Would you care to see some links to all of those folks on here who have said how pleased they are with it, or is your mind made up and you don't want facts interfering.
  7. RafRol's Avatar
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    #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    You're confusing between Palm's mission to investors and to consumers. Two opposite crowds.
    Visor/Sprint Springboard Expansion Module > Visor Platinum > Tungsten E > Centro (work) > Palm Pre
  8. fredc1's Avatar
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    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmagic01 View Post
    Based on the fact that Palm pre has failed to impress the masses of smart phone consumers. Based on the 1400 palm pre complaints thread. Based on an app catalog with nothing worth downloading, based on the fact that the app catalog even with the trash that's in it is growing slower then it's biggest rivals was at this stage. Based on the fact that developer's have publically decided to stop developing for webos until palm "get's it's act together", based on a stock price that has fallen 40% in two weeks. Based on a calender app that can't function as many business users need it. Based on the inability to get out an sdk that gives access to the stuff developers need to make the stuff consumers really want. Based on my the fact that i've never seen another person since launch with a pre and it's not like i don't live near a **** load of people with cell phones, since it's lost all it's buzz to other phones, since even the palmcast podcast has people in it with multiple phones that would rather use a different phone. Since even the precentral forum is full of people mad at palm for it's inability to deliver basic functions in the phone they got on old phones. Nice OS but with a bunch of issues that need to be fixed. And crappy execution by Palm.
    Most of what you have stated is either your own opinion, grossly exagerated, anecdotal, irrelevant, or just plain silly.

    While there are a few apps that I'd like to have - Slingplayer, Voice and Call Recorder, Video Recorder, and a few bugs I could do without, I use my Pre constantly as a business/personal smartphone for phone/conference calls, email, calendar, synching to Google, and Exchange and it seems to handle almost everything well THAT I NEED IT TO DO. And apps/features like Pandora, SprintNAV, Bluetooth Audio, camera have performed well beyond my original expectations.The phone's build has been rock solid since 6/6/09 and I certainly don't baby it. Battery usually lasts me all day without a charge.

    My daughter and son thinks their's are great too.

    And so I expect that Palm will continue to make it better over time and I am patient enough to allow them that time before I would consider moving on. It's been noted as one of the best products of 2009 by several noted pundits/reviewers, and by hundreds of users right here on this forum, so they must be doing something right.

    That you and some others get so distraught and upset because it is not as close to perfect FOR YOU as you want it to be, that's too bad. You have every right to complain and state your PERSONAL reasons for your dissapointments, but you can't deny that others are quite content, and many are extremely happy, with the Pre right now. Your feelings and experiences are atypical. None of your semi-baseless arguments, half truths, or condescending statements are going to change that a bit.
  9.    #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by RafRol View Post
    I love emoticon speak
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  10.    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by fredc1 View Post
    And so I expect that Palm will continue to make it better over time and I am patient enough to allow them that time before I would consider moving on. It's been noted as one of the best products of 2009 by several noted pundits/reviewers, and by hundreds of users right here on this forum, so they must be doing something right.
    It was noted as one of the best product by people who don't use it daily. And I agree that conceptually, it's very impressive. Unfortunately the implementation of the concept is a different story.

    That you and some others get so distraught and upset because it is not as close to perfect FOR YOU as you want it to be, that's too bad. You have every right to complain and state your PERSONAL reasons for your dissapointments, but you can't deny that others are quite content, and many are extremely happy, with the Pre right now. Your feelings and experiences are atypical. None of your semi-baseless arguments, half truths, or condescending statements are going to change that a bit.
    But no one is asking for perfection. Just something that works well, and given the total cost of ownership, we are right to expect it. This is a high end phone that's also a continuation of a lineage with certain characteristics. Palm threw away a lot of traditional and useful functionality without justification. It wants to use the brand name of a business friendly device to market a dumbed down consumer device instead. That's misleading.

    We are on PreCentral, a forum of Palm enthusiasts. To criticize Palm here is already going against the grain and the polls posted are hardly reliable. The real polls are in the market for smartphones, and we know the numbers are not encouraging. Why is this so? Some blame the carrier, others blame advertising. These are all external factors that Palm has limited control over. In contrast, it is in full control over the quality of product it ships.

    I understand that you are waiting patiently before deciding to move on. That doesn't sound like an endorsement for the Pre.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmagic01 View Post
    Based on the fact that Palm pre has failed to impress the masses of smart phone consumers.
    Fallacy Defined:
    In logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning in argumentation. By accident or design, fallacies may exploit emotional triggers in the listener or interlocutor (e.g. appeal to emotion), or take advantage of social relationships between people (e.g. argument from authority). Fallacious arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure the logical argument, making fallacies more difficult to diagnose. Also, the components of the fallacy may be spread out over separate arguments.

    Let me rephrase: Based on the fact that forum threads tend to be posted about issues not praises.

    As an example:
    Of the million purchases made each day, very few people will go back to the store and mention that they are happy with their purchase.
    Just call me Berd.
  12. fredc1's Avatar
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    #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    It was noted as one of the best product by people who don't use it daily. And I agree that conceptually, it's very impressive. Unfortunately the implementation of the concept is a different story.



    But no one is asking for perfection. Just something that works well, and given the total cost of ownership, we are right to expect it. This is a high end phone that's also a continuation of a lineage with certain characteristics. Palm threw away a lot of traditional and useful functionality without justification. It wants to use the brand name of a business friendly device to market a dumbed down consumer device instead. That's misleading.

    We are on PreCentral, a forum of Palm enthusiasts. To criticize Palm here is already going against the grain and the polls posted are hardly reliable. The real polls are in the market for smartphones, and we know the numbers are not encouraging. Why is this so? Some blame the carrier, others blame advertising. These are all external factors that Palm has limited control over. In contrast, it is in full control over the quality of product it ships.

    I understand that you are waiting patiently before deciding to move on. That doesn't sound like an endorsement for the Pre.
    Here you go again taking great liberties with your arguments. I didn't say anyone was asking for perfection..I said "...not as close to perfect...". And I understand the lineage quite well thank you, having had Palm OS products continously for more than 10 years. And I don't feel mislead at all, if you did, then state that's your opinion, but it's not an objective fact that everyone has been mislead.

    And again, just because it doesn't work well for you, that doesn't mean that it can't work well for thousands of others. Overall, It works well enough for me...fantastic in a few areas, good in most others, and with a few bugs and minor annoyances in some.

    You know the numbers are not encouraging to whom? You? Investors? Did Palm say the numbers are not encouraging?

    And why would you use my statement I would wait patiently before "considering" (you conveniently left that out) deciding to move on as my endorsement, and not this part of what I said:

    "...I use my Pre constantly as a business/personal smartphone for phone/conference calls, email, calendar, synching to Google, and Exchange and it seems to handle almost everything well THAT I NEED IT TO DO. And apps/features like Pandora, SprintNAV, Bluetooth Audio, camera have performed well beyond my original expectations.The phone's build has been rock solid since 6/6/09 and I certainly don't baby it. Battery usually lasts me all day without a charge.

    My daughter and son thinks their's are great too."

    The above seems to be a nice endorsement. And notice that I admit that it "almost" handles everything and that it does have some bugs and annoyances. I'm not so much a Palm apologist as I am just someone with a bit more understanding how difficult it must be to develop, market, and improve the Pre with the very limited resources they have had. I have no reason to beleive right now that they are not trying their best to succeed and to make my Pre experience bettter. If they try and fail, or it seems to me that they have given up, I'll move on to whatever phone is the next best option...without posting my goodbyes here.
  13. pico23's Avatar
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    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Cutting because of space, not that the rest of it is not relevant, it is.

    As for the rest, if the network is something that's holding them back, then the fact that it's coming out on new networks is a good thing. It might also even be true that the existing excitement among Sprint users (including those that jumped from other networks) has helped generate some excitement about it on other networks.

    I'll also point out that many of the "experts" on here were already talking about all of the things Palm was doing wrong when Verizon announced their intention to carry it. Maybe the other phone providers know something about the Pre that the "experts" on here don't...

    I agree with you, but, IF Palm had only had a 3 month exclusivity they could have come out with the Pre before these Android devices on Verizon.

    I'm not one of those people that think Android is going to be the next great phone platform. And I have reasons, none of which are because I am a fanperson. I do think it is important to have control of the hardware and software to put out a winning product, and Android is the next WinMo.

    Anyway, Palm did lose a big window, but I think it is early enough to recover.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by pico23 View Post
    I agree with you, but, IF Palm had only had a 3 month exclusivity they could have come out with the Pre before these Android devices on Verizon.

    I'm not one of those people that think Android is going to be the next great phone platform. And I have reasons, none of which are because I am a fanperson. I do think it is important to have control of the hardware and software to put out a winning product, and Android is the next WinMo.

    Anyway, Palm did lose a big window, but I think it is early enough to recover.
    I don't think we're disagreeing on principle, but possibly on facts. I don't think Palm had the window you're talking about. I think they made the deal with Sprint, because that was the deal that Sprint was offering.

    In other words, I don't think the choice was between a 3 month deal and a 6 month deal. I think the choice was between (whatever deal they took) and no deal at all.
  15.    #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by fredc1 View Post
    I have no reason to beleive right now that they are not trying their best to succeed and to make my Pre experience bettter.
    Palm has been absent post-launch, the most critical time to fix issues. Instead they are on a world tour trying to acquire more customers and let the existing ones patch stuff on their own.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Palm has been absent post-launch, the most critical time to fix issues. Instead they are on a world tour trying to acquire more customers and let the existing ones patch stuff on their own.
    Seriously? You call the amount of updates we've had already (with more to come) as being absent?

    Name one other platform that has had so many large updates so quickly.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmagic01 View Post
    Based on the fact that Palm pre has failed to impress the masses of smart phone consumers. Based on the 1400 palm pre complaints thread. Based on an app catalog with nothing worth downloading, based on the fact that the app catalog even with the trash that's in it is growing slower then it's biggest rivals was at this stage. Based on the fact that developer's have publically decided to stop developing for webos until palm "get's it's act together", based on a stock price that has fallen 40% in two weeks. Based on a calender app that can't function as many business users need it. Based on the inability to get out an sdk that gives access to the stuff developers need to make the stuff consumers really want. Based on my the fact that i've never seen another person since launch with a pre and it's not like i don't live near a **** load of people with cell phones, since it's lost all it's buzz to other phones, since even the palmcast podcast has people in it with multiple phones that would rather use a different phone. Since even the precentral forum is full of people mad at palm for it's inability to deliver basic functions in the phone they got on old phones. Nice OS but with a bunch of issues that need to be fixed. And crappy execution by Palm.
    pretty much sums it up.... sorry Palm
    (\__/)
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  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Palm has been absent post-launch, the most critical time to fix issues. Instead they are on a world tour trying to acquire more customers and let the existing ones patch stuff on their own.
    absent, no that is untrue, they have fixed time critical things, and there have been a half dozen updates.

    as for aquire more customers, that is true, they are pushing hard to sell their device.

    a fact of capitalism is, they have to compete with other phones. therefore i would conclude that palm must continue to update the pre so that they can do that effectively.

    The poster who this is a response to is correct IMHO, palm has a vested interest in keeping the pre updated and users happy.

    the fact that they embrace the homebrew community is GOOD.

    also, as far as new things they are doing, that Ares sounds exciting.

    though with everything ever that has been promised to me, from palm, apple, the president, my "friend" who borrowed 50 bucks from me in middle school so he could buy killer instinct for SNES and said he would pay me back, I will believe it when i see it.

    sure, i have been burned before, but i will tell you what, I am more likely to see continued updates from palm, than 50 bucks from Mike, thats for sure.

    i take it on past history of giving big ole "large" updates that do things like make the appcatalog pay, provide copy/paste in browser, extend microsoft exchange support, provide an update to the ENTIRE mojo framework....

    theres plenty more, i'm not gonna list them, but you can read them here
    http://kb.palm.com/wps/portal/kb/na/.../50607_en.html
    Last edited by windzilla; 11/05/2009 at 09:54 PM.
    There are four lights.
  19.    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Seriously? You call the amount of updates we've had already (with more to come) as being absent?

    Name one other platform that has had so many large updates so quickly.
    What large updates? We are five months post-launch, the calendar is unusable, phone app fails to receive calls and memory issues are daily. I'm tired of listing everything that has been discussed over and over.

    When does Palm fix something? Lets look at the EAS fixes in 1.2 and 1.2.1. The fix was pushed after a weekend, because it gave Palm bad "Enterprise" headlines. In contrast, even though that fix left people forced to enter their pin codes every few minutes into their phone, there hasn't been any fix yet. What's the difference? The pin-lock issue doesn't register as an "Enterprise" problem, only a usability one, so it can wait along with the rest of the annoyances.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Palm has been absent post-launch, the most critical time to fix issues. Instead they are on a world tour trying to acquire more customers and let the existing ones patch stuff on their own.
    This is becoming laughable. Yeah, you must be right. They pulled all those engineers and set them to work in the PRPRPR $department$.

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