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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by dallashigh View Post
    Look nobody is going to argue that webOS can "beat" the others right now. It does have potential. Nobody is arguing that people should buy the Pre or Pixi based on its potential. The point is that the App Catalog is growing almost daily and the updates to both the OS and the SDK are coming regularly. webOS will catch up and will be able to "compete" in the future.

    If you are looking at app count and app capabilities, then you already know where the various platforms stand and there is no point in arguing.

    Yes webOS is "disappointing" in some way to just about everyone. There are things I wish it could do that it just can't do right now. But I know those features are coming. That's good enough for me. If it's not good enough for you, there are plenty of other platforms out there and I sincerely hope you find the right one for you.

    webOS does have features that are unique to it. The card system and notifications are pretty much unbeaten.

    Like I said, it all comes down to opinion and there is no point arguing about it because there's no right answer.
    Very well said. I'm not totally against the Pre. I've owned one since day 1 and its been ok for me. I just get frustrated with all of the excuses made for it in these forums. Times are different. There is much more competition.

    While I understand what you are saying the big picture is installed user base. Right now that is dominated by RIM, Apple and Android (Google). Palm's userbase or marketshare is under 2% and I don't see the strategy to improve that. What that tells me is that the app catalog won't be anywhere near the other 3 anytime soon and that is depressing. I really don't see how WebOS will survive. The Pre has been disappointing and in this competitive environment we need more than blank promises to increase market share.

    I have yet to hear a strategy to make me feel better about this big picture scenario. Maybe a Pre2 with a 3.8 inch AMOLED screen 16gb internal memory, multitouch (obviously), WebOS 2.0, 5mp camera w/auto focus, vid recording, msg forwarding, better more sturdy build quality would convince me. I haven't heard of such a thing but that would at least make the platform competitive. As it is right now...the Pre is out of its league.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmagic01 View Post
    No your right it's that isn't from Palm's mouth, that said we don't hear much from Palm's mouth. But is is the phanbois saying it. The people who which palm can do nothing wrong and they are fighting some sort of nerd tech battle. I never get that. whether it's apple hate or whatever. There is surely more competition now.
    This is such a straw man, and really it's annoying. Nobody that I know of is saying that Palm should be or will be successful given the competition it's facing, or that the market will freeze and give Palm a chance to catch up (!). What some such as myself are saying is that Palm is moving as fast as they can, and the existence of competition doesn't magically change how quickly Palm can advance the platform.

    Palm has certainly made bad decisions--they'd never be in this position if they'd made better ones, and that goes back a number of years. But, the Pre is a damn good smartphone even in comparison to Android and the iPhone, albeit with flaws (some serious, some not), and is really a pretty remarkable achievement for a company that was on the brink of bankruptcy less than a year ago.

    And at the same time, Palm is arguably advancing more quickly than did the iPhone and Android did in their own development. Consider: Palm has a decent if not spectacular app store within the first five months where Apple didn't have one of any significance (or at all) for over a year. Palm has produced a number of major and minor updates that have fixed some significant issues and added some nice functionality in a very short period of time. And the Pre and WebOS lead the industry in some key features such as multitasking, information integration, notifications, and blending a physical keyboard with a multitouch OS.

    The point that some of us are making (if I can speak for some others) is that it's fruitless and, in fact, unfair to attack Palm because they're not moving "fast enough," as if the mere fact that the iPhone and Android have been on the market longer can somehow accelerate what Palm is capable of doing. After less than six months on the market, the Pre is being held to a standard that it has taken Apple over two years to attain and Adroid well over a year. And, in some respects, Palm has actually surpassed both.

    I see no value in coming to a forum dedicated to the Pre and attacking Palm for not moving as fast as one arbitrarily wishes they would move. If you don't like the Pre, then move on with your life and by all means, get a device that does what you want it to do. What's the point in coming here and venting?
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Here's my biggest tipoff as to Palm Pre sales not being at a million:

    No announcement. Whatever the terms of their Sprint deal were, there is no incentive to keep sales figures a secret now. In fact, I'm certain that the market and their investors would love to know where actual Pre sales stand.
    Sorry, that's not a tipoff of any kind. You have determined, almost from the start, that a non-announcement means poor sales. Your determination doesn't make it a fact.
    I'd be willing to bet that by the time Palm announces over 1m sold, they will have long since passed that point.

    In other words, thinking they "should" do something don't make it so.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by V1cK dB View Post
    Not only do people compare the Pre to the iphone from today...but they compare it to the Droid, Hero, HD2, etc...etc. The market is drastically different from when the iPhone was going through its growing pains. No competition back then so they got away with it. The funny thing is I don't think Palm is the one rationalizing the current situation with this absurd argument....its WebOS *******.
    Exactly. People are comparing it to the smartphone market today.

    And still buying it.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by dallashigh View Post
    ...
    That's good enough for me. If it's not good enough for you, there are plenty of other platforms out there and I sincerely hope you find the right one for you.
    ...
    Not only is it good enough for you, it's good enough for a lot of people. That's what folks that start some of this nonsense talk don't understand. Palm wasn't trying to beat the iPhone (they said so), they were trying to capture enough of the market to survive.

    That's exactly what they did. That's not good enough for some folks on here. Fine, there are lots of other devices out there, and more coming.

    However it's good enough for a lot of us, and the promise of things "yet to come" is not only "good enough", it's exciting.

    For those that don't share that, that's fine. There are lots of other platforms out there. Have at 'em.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    ...
    I see no value in coming to a forum dedicated to the Pre and attacking Palm for not moving as fast as one arbitrarily wishes they would move. If you don't like the Pre, then move on with your life and by all means, get a device that does what you want it to do. What's the point in coming here and venting?
    The whole post was well put, but that summarizes it very well.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Not only is it good enough for you, it's good enough for a lot of people. That's what folks that start some of this nonsense talk don't understand. Palm wasn't trying to beat the iPhone (they said so), they were trying to capture enough of the market to survive.

    That's exactly what they did. That's not good enough for some folks on here. Fine, there are lots of other devices out there, and more coming.

    However it's good enough for a lot of us, and the promise of things "yet to come" is not only "good enough", it's exciting.

    For those that don't share that, that's fine. There are lots of other platforms out there. Have at 'em.
    While I agree Palm isn't trying to take the iPhone head on so what? Palm is holding on...barely. Have you seen their stock lately? People won't invest in this company if there is no strategy for growth. Profitable growth. Right now RIM, Apple and Google have much better plans for growth so investors invest in those technologies..more customers buy their product and more developers develop for those platforms. Simple as that. You can continue to be happy with good enough. Hopefully investors are right there with you otherwise Palm will flop.

    As for all of you giving people advise and telling people to go to other platforms. Not very smart and I'm sure both Palm and Sprint whom you support so much do not appreciate being so short with concerned existing customers or potential customers who have legitimate concerns, complaints..whatever. This isn't a nonprofit effort by Sprint and Palm This isn't a hobby. Its a business. Telling people to go find another forum or phone to buy isn't exactly a great business plan. Neither is making excuses for underperformance and believe me...this is underperformance.

    As for me...I'll take your advice. I'm moving on to the Droid on Friday and giving the Pre to my wife. This is NOT good enough for me.

    Edit: That have at em' mentality is what is so concerning about this whole thing. As if we are in a position of power or strength. As if Palm is in such health. Comical.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    And at the same time, Palm is arguably advancing more quickly than did the iPhone and Android did in their own development. Consider: Palm has a decent if not spectacular app store within the first five months where Apple didn't have one of any significance (or at all) for over a year. Palm has produced a number of major and minor updates that have fixed some significant issues and added some nice functionality in a very short period of time. And the Pre and WebOS lead the industry in some key features such as multitasking, information integration, notifications, and blending a physical keyboard with a multitouch OS.
    Unfortunately, that App Store metric is misleading. The point is once both Apple and Android actually BEGAN app stores, they were WAY ahead of where Palm is now at the five month period. Their SDKs were way ahead of where Palm's is now.

    As for Pre and WebOS industry "leads", I can tell you that HTC snatched the Synergy crown with Hero, and Android 2.0 looks to keep it firmly locked barring some amazing new development from Palm.

    The point that some of us are making (if I can speak for some others) is that it's fruitless and, in fact, unfair to attack Palm because they're not moving "fast enough," as if the mere fact that the iPhone and Android have been on the market longer can somehow accelerate what Palm is capable of doing. After less than six months on the market, the Pre is being held to a standard that it has taken Apple over two years to attain and Adroid well over a year. And, in some respects, Palm has actually surpassed both.
    My critiques don't have much to do with the speed at which Palm is moving. They are consciously making decision after decision that seems to make their lot worse.

    The Pixi. Hyping no new features for WebOS updates. Saying nothing about their vision for 2010. Continuing to "fix" iTunes sync when they are unable to control it.

    It is very much within Palm's power to make decisions that some of us would deem wiser, and, especially since we dropped $199 on this device, we're going to say so as often as the urge strikes us.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by V1cK dB View Post
    While I agree Palm isn't trying to take the iPhone head on so what? Palm is holding on...barely. Have you seen their stock lately? People won't invest in this company if there is no strategy for growth. Profitable growth. Right now RIM, Apple and Google have much better plans for growth so investors invest in those technologies..more customers buy their product and more developers develop for those platforms. Simple as that. You can continue to be happy with good enough. Hopefully investors are right there with you otherwise Palm will flop.

    As for all of you giving people advise and telling people to go to other platforms. Not very smart and I'm sure both Palm and Sprint whom you support so much do not appreciate being so short with concerned existing customers or potential customers who have legitimate concerns, complaints..whatever. This isn't a nonprofit effort by Sprint and Palm This isn't a hobby. Its a business. Telling people to go find another forum or phone to buy isn't exactly a great business plan. Neither is making excuses for underperformance and believe me...this is underperformance.

    As for me...I'll take your advice. I'm moving on to the Droid on Friday and giving the Pre to my wife. This is NOT good enough for me.

    Edit: That have at em' mentality is what is so concerning about this whole thing. As if we are in a position of power or strength. As if Palm is in such health. Comical.
    Well, now, see, I'll say it again. Nobody is knocking anyone for voicing _legitimate_ concerns and _legitimate_ complaints. Saying that anyone's being short with such folks is a straw man--you know, an unstated argument that you set up just so you can knock it down.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Unfortunately, that App Store metric is misleading. The point is once both Apple and Android actually BEGAN app stores, they were WAY ahead of where Palm is now at the five month period. Their SDKs were way ahead of where Palm's is now.

    As for Pre and WebOS industry "leads", I can tell you that HTC snatched the Synergy crown with Hero, and Android 2.0 looks to keep it firmly locked barring some amazing new development from Palm.

    My critiques don't have much to do with the speed at which Palm is moving. They are consciously making decision after decision that seems to make their lot worse.

    The Pixi. Hyping no new features for WebOS updates. Saying nothing about their vision for 2010. Continuing to "fix" iTunes sync when they are unable to control it.

    It is very much within Palm's power to make decisions that some of us would deem wiser, and, especially since we dropped $199 on this device, we're going to say so as often as the urge strikes us.
    Well, if you're saying that Palm's not far enough along with the SDK and the App Catalog, then you are saying it's alot to do with speed. And I submit that at least in Apple's case, it was much later before they offered an SDK at all, let alone one that was fully capable.

    Regarding the Pixi, I see nothing wrong with offering a lower-priced device that will appeal to a wide range of potential buyers. We'll see how it does, but in and of itself it doesn't seem like a terrible decision. And, developing and producing a higher-end device might very well be difficult for Palm in their current financial condition. Again, we'll see.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "hyping new features for WebOS updates," unless you mean hinting about future capabilities. To me, that's a recipe for disaster. Could Palm give more of a roadmap? Perhaps, but then again if Palm gave a roadmap and then didn't deliver one small aspect of it they'd be pilloried.

    The whole iTunes thing has already been asked and answered by Palm. The minute it becomes a time sink for them, they'll drop it. In the meantime, legitimate 3rd party solutions already exist (e.g., DoubleTwist), and so Palm has no reason to spend the resources on their own alternative. Would they benefit from nudging people toward those options? Perhaps, but again, their failure to do so is hardly egregious.

    As far as your having spent $199 on a device and thus having urges, well, sure, I suppose for some people that's entirely understandable.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
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    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Okay, lets ask further: why hasn't the Pre been a success so far? Is it a lack of quality or of apps?

    Let me preface this statement with this: I was a long time verizon customer who could not wait to leave ONCE I VERIFIED Sprint had a solid network.


    Now let me answer your question: Sprint SPrint Sprint Sprint Sprint.

    It's that simple, Sprints name aint the best in the business, and it will take a long time for it to improve. Reality and perception are two different things.

    Having had sprint for 5 months now. Traveled to all the east coast places I traveled with Veriizon for 8 years, I can say I love the network (well maybe I wouldn't without free roaming but with it I love it).

    However, when I mention Sprint people get this tMobile look on there face.

    Sprint has a very good network, not as good as verizons, but so far I have service everywhere I had with verizon (might be 1X roam but still service and fast enough vs no signal), and ironically, last weekend I was camping in NH, my friend with a native Verizon phone was stuck on a crap 0-1 bar EVDO signal. I had 5 bars of1X. I listened to the baseball game streaming nice and smooth while he couldn't use his phone for anything.

    So I think the Sprint name sucks, but Sprint is getting the job done for me, and most importantly it is doing it for 1/3 the cost of verizon ($120 for 3 everything lines with corporate discounts vs. $120 for 2 non data plans on verizon). That is almost $1000 savings per year for me, shame other people are concerned with the phone cost only.
  12. s219's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    What we have here are unrealistic expectations. To Sivan and anyone else complaining that Palm's rollout of it's App Catalog has thus far been inadequate, let me point something out:


    Do you see that big, blue, Beta banner? Yep, you've guessed it, that app catalog and the surrounding infrastructure is still in it's infancy and in the early access phase for developers, with the full-blown release slated for December.

    Folks have been far too dismissive and critical towards Palm in terms of this rollout and it's associated missteps far too early on in this process than rational thought should allow.

    Baloney. The very first iPhone games, developed with the beta SDK before the App Store even debuted, were leagues better than anything you can see in Palm's catalog now and in the foreseeable future. Beta or not, the Mojo SDK is just too primitive and basic for developers to do any decent work. There are no excuses for this.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    Baloney. The very first iPhone games, developed with the beta SDK before the App Store even debuted, were leagues better than anything you can see in Palm's catalog now and in the foreseeable future. Beta or not, the Mojo SDK is just too primitive and basic for developers to do any decent work. There are no excuses for this.
    And when, exactly, where these games released? Relative to the iPhone's release?
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    This is such a straw man, and really it's annoying. Nobody that I know of is saying that Palm should be or will be successful given the competition it's facing, or that the market will freeze and give Palm a chance to catch up (!). What some such as myself are saying is that Palm is moving as fast as they can, and the existence of competition doesn't magically change how quickly Palm can advance the platform.
    And nobody argured that anyone said "the market would freeze"
    People keep saying we should excuse Palm's failings and it's lack of delivering apps because years ago Apple didn't have an app store when the iphone launched. I didn't mention a word about people claiming the market would freeze. And that Palm is moving as fast as they can is just another excuse for why they can't get their act together. I don't care that they are trying their hardest. Good for them. Doesn't help me. It's not fruitless or unfair to attack palm. This is business in. They can deliver the product that impresses masses of consumers or they'll fail. Right now they are failing. And what's the point of coming here? Well the guy asked a question. And it's a free country. I'm free to comment. And telling people to move on solves nothing. if you don't like the discussion you can move on to a different thread. The problem is a lot of people don't want to discuss reality and only want to have palm sunshine spread on them. They want someone to say Palm is doing everything right. Palm is great. They just want their own palm version of head buried in the sand Iphone phanboism. Even the Palmcast podcast brings up these issues and they basically run Precentral. So i don't see how the opinions expressed in this thread are anything but legit issues. And the Palm won't get their act together by people continuing to say, "hey you're doing fine." They aren't.
    Last edited by blackmagic01; 11/02/2009 at 10:35 PM.
  15. s219's Avatar
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    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Well, if you're saying that Palm's not far enough along with the SDK and the App Catalog, then you are saying it's alot to do with speed. And I submit that at least in Apple's case, it was much later before they offered an SDK at all, let alone one that was fully capable.
    What you and most people don't realize is that Apple was using their SDK internally for the first iPhone in 2007. It was part of their existing Xcode developer tools that were originally used for Mac OS X. It had advanced technologies for sound, graphics, etc... in that initial version. Stuff webOS lacks 5 months later and probably will for a while (if it even shows up).

    You can try to make all sorts of comparisons to progress on other platforms in a time warp, to try and position webOS in a favorable light. But it's a lot simpler if you look at the fundamentals. Like SDK capability. App sophistication. And so on. The evidence is pretty plain.
  16. s219's Avatar
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    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    And when, exactly, where these games released? Relative to the iPhone's release?
    Stuff started showing up at the WWDC that pre-dated the official release. If you dig up the keynote video, you'll see demos of some excellent games using OpenGL, OpenAL, etc. Apple was trotting these big name developers on stage left and right.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Well, if you're saying that Palm's not far enough along with the SDK and the App Catalog, then you are saying it's alot to do with speed. And I submit that at least in Apple's case, it was much later before they offered an SDK at all, let alone one that was fully capable.
    Dude, if zero point is the first day the app store is available, then NO, iPhone was not "much later". It took Apple later to get to zero point, but WHO CARES? It was stratospheric growth from there. Palm had an App Store on day one. Wow. The beta SDK and 300 apps are totally worth them being able to say they started their app catalog sooner. Hmmm...bragging rights or a well-developed and diverse catalog with constant exponential growth...which to choose....

    Regarding the Pixi, I see nothing wrong with offering a lower-priced device that will appeal to a wide range of potential buyers. We'll see how it does, but in and of itself it doesn't seem like a terrible decision. And, developing and producing a higher-end device might very well be difficult for Palm in their current financial condition. Again, we'll see.
    Well, the Centro sees something wrong with it. Palm got that little puppy out to every carrier and sold lots of units to...barely stay afloat long enough to rush out the Pre. If the Pixi is going to be part deux of that, what's the point? It's counterproductive. The market the Centro thrived in had little-to-NO capable smartphones floating around $99. The market the Pixi will release in will have the Droid Eris, numerous Blackberries, the iPhone 3G, and who knows what else in the coming months.

    You know what else is at that price point? The Pre on Amazon!

    I'm not sure what you mean by "hyping new features for WebOS updates," unless you mean hinting about future capabilities. To me, that's a recipe for disaster. Could Palm give more of a roadmap? Perhaps, but then again if Palm gave a roadmap and then didn't deliver one small aspect of it they'd be pilloried.
    Recipe for disaster? Have you noticed that Apple explicitly spelled out what their next OS this year had...THREE months before it shipped? Or that Android talks future releases constantly?

    If Palm is more than three months away from some major upgrades to WebOS, they have bigger problems than hype.

    The whole iTunes thing has already been asked and answered by Palm. The minute it becomes a time sink for them, they'll drop it.
    Who cares how much time they spend on it? Their preferred media sync solution is the equivalent of leeching Wi-Fi from your next door neighbor.

    In the meantime, legitimate 3rd party solutions already exist (e.g., DoubleTwist), and so Palm has no reason to spend the resources on their own alternative. Would they benefit from nudging people toward those options? Perhaps, but again, their failure to do so is hardly egregious.
    No, only the outright promoting of iTunes sync, an option THEY CANNOT CONTROL, would be considered egregious.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by V1cK dB View Post
    While I agree Palm isn't trying to take the iPhone head on so what? Palm is holding on...barely. Have you seen their stock lately? People won't invest in this company if there is no strategy for growth. Profitable growth. Right now RIM, Apple and Google have much better plans for growth so investors invest in those technologies..more customers buy their product and more developers develop for those platforms. Simple as that. You can continue to be happy with good enough. Hopefully investors are right there with you otherwise Palm will flop.

    As for all of you giving people advise and telling people to go to other platforms. Not very smart and I'm sure both Palm and Sprint whom you support so much do not appreciate being so short with concerned existing customers or potential customers who have legitimate concerns, complaints..whatever. This isn't a nonprofit effort by Sprint and Palm This isn't a hobby. Its a business. Telling people to go find another forum or phone to buy isn't exactly a great business plan. Neither is making excuses for underperformance and believe me...this is underperformance.
    ...
    I really don't think Palm is overly concerned about it. The number of Pre owners that read this website is small, the number that would jump ship because of me saying their constant complaints aren't warranted, and if they really like another device better they should be it is probably an equally small fraction.

    As far as the forum goes, Yeah, I think it would be better off with more "How do I do this" questions (and answers) and fewer of "The phone I like is better, and if any of you disagree with me, your fanfolk" posts.

    But, if Palm really has a problem with me voicing my opinion about such matters, they can let me know. There are other phones out there you know
  19. #79  
    Okay, some of you are complaining about the poor state of the App Catalog right now, and I've already said I agree with you there, there's a lot of crap with a few gems in there. I also agree that Palm needs to finish more of their APIs. At the same time, to release with zero third-party apps on day 1 would've been suicide in 2009.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by pico23 View Post
    Let me preface this statement with this: I was a long time verizon customer who could not wait to leave ONCE I VERIFIED Sprint had a solid network.


    Now let me answer your question: Sprint SPrint Sprint Sprint Sprint.
    ...
    Cutting because of space, not that the rest of it is not relevant, it is.

    Many of those that critcize Palm about their choice of Sprint probably don't know the "behind the scenes" details (I don't either, but I can guess...)

    Look at the situation, a failing company had what they thought would be a company saving device. But they already had providers that were dropping their devices left and right, and virtually everyone had written them off.

    I can picture them approacing Sprint (possibly even after having approached the others) and saying "Look, we have this device that we think is going to be hot", and Sprint saying "Yes, but only if we get an exclusive for xxx months".

    Did it happen that way? I don't know, but probably. If so, did Palm make the right decision? You tell me - which is better, on carrier that's trying rebuild their reputation comitting to xxx months, or all the carrier's saying "Thanks, but no thanks".

    As for the rest, if the network is something that's holding them back, then the fact that it's coming out on new networks is a good thing. It might also even be true that the existing excitement among Sprint users (including those that jumped from other networks) has helped generate some excitement about it on other networks.

    I'll also point out that many of the "experts" on here were already talking about all of the things Palm was doing wrong when Verizon announced their intention to carry it. Maybe the other phone providers know something about the Pre that the "experts" on here don't...
    Last edited by hparsons; 11/02/2009 at 11:12 PM.

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