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  1.    #1  
    Just for kicks, I did a quick search and found Gizmodo's review of the original iPhone, dated 7/2007. Some interesting clips:

    [Updated 4:37PM 7/11/07] Greetings irrational ******* and Apple haters! Ten days and 12,000 ~13,500 words later, our stone-cold look at what it means to own an iPhone is done. Before we get to the in depth hands-on, here's the verdict I'd give any good friend: Wait to buy the iPhone.

    Wait for What?
    Look, I'm not saying wait for version 2.0. You don't need new hardware to love the phone; version 1.1 should do it. Wait until Apple updates the software. That was a hard to write, since I'm thumbing through my own iPhone like a teenager with his first Playboy. This is what the phone of the future will look like, and Steve Jobs and Apple should be proud. iPhone of 2010 aside, this model must be judged on what it is today. Like every other journalist will tell you, its multitouch UI, browser and iPod are all pants-worthy. But as the honeymoon sets, I find myself left with a phone that could be more functional. I could make comparisons to high-end Nokia or Helio phones that have endless lists of wonderful features like GPS, YouTube video uploading and more. But only a ******bag would tackle the iPhone for lacking esoteric tricks; things that belong on a Wish List for v2.0. That's not what I'm talking about.[Emphasis added.]
    Here's some more:

    So what's your main problem with the iPhone?
    The real elephant in the room is the fact that I just spent $600 on my iPhone and it can't do some crucial functions that even $50 handsets can. I'm talking about MMS. Video recording. Custom ringtones. Mass storage. Fully functioning Bluetooth with stereo audio streaming. Voice dialing when you're using a car kit. Sending contact info to other people. Instant friggin' messenging. Sending an SMS to more than one recipient at a time.
    Some points:

    1. I don't post this to imply that Palm should get a pass from the market because the Pre and WebOS are new. They won't, and they shouldn't. As I've said elsewhere, Palm might very well fail, meaning they might go out of business or get bought out (and gutted). I really hope not, and I don't think they will, but it's certainly possible.

    2. Although the Pre doesn't have nearly the functionality at this point that I'd love to see, it's really sounding pretty good compared to the original iPhone. And the 3G, if one were to take a look at its release. Meaning that as a brand-new device, with a brand-new OS, the Pre is as good as the second-generation iPhone was at its release a year ago.

    Since it's not entirely legal, moral, or technically possible for Palm to simply steal the guts of someone else's platform, I'd say they've done okay in terms of developing an original, brand-new platform with some innovations of their own (multitasking, notifications, Synergy). Doing so isn't easy for companies with the size and finances of Apple and Google (or Microsoft); it certainly can't be easy for a company of Palm's size that was (is?) on the brink of bankruptcy.

    3. For anyone who wants to attack #2 because "it doesn't matter, the market doesn't care that Palm has had less time, they'll judge the Pre for what it does NOW!!!", please refer to #1.

    4. I find it fascinating that we're seeing the same arguments here on Precentral about the Pre and WebOS as were being conducted around the iPhone back in 2007. And the 3G in 2008, for that matter--because of course a year later and in its version 2.0, the iPhone still had no MMS, no video recording, etc.

    5. Ultimately, I think my point in posting this is: if you want functionality that the Pre doesn't have, by all means, buy something that does. And I understand the frustration--many folks, including myself, were waiting since January for the Pre to be released, and it's a bit of a letdown that the device isn't performing as we'd hoped some months afterward.

    But, and here's the crux: maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to cut Palm some slack. That is, amongst ourselves. We could recognize that Palm is moving as fast as they can, and while it's good and constructive to identify, mention, and discuss deficiencies with an eye to seeing them fixed, it's not so much to post ridiculous assertions along the lines that Palm should simply make things happen NOW!!!! when it's clearly true that they simply can't. And, even worse, to make such posts for no apparent reason.

    I guess I just don't expect Palm to get blood from a stone, because it's simply impossible. Because I understand this, I don't see any point in demanding that they do so, and saying that they suck as a company because they're not. The minute I come to the conclusion that Palm isn't going to succeed and that the Pre isn't a good long-term investment, I'll move on to another platform--sadly, because I really like Palm's vision for the Pre and still hope that they'll accomplish it.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  2. #2  
    Excellent post!

    But I still want my...
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  3. Leke's Avatar
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    #3  
    Sounds like the Pre now
  4. #4  
    Yes....how wonderful that webOS was made to target iPhoneOS 1.0
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Leke View Post
    Sounds like the Pre now
    Um, er, well: in essence, that was my point. Kind of.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  6.    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Yes....how wonderful that webOS was made to target iPhoneOS 1.0
    I have to ask, and I know my post was longish, but did you actually read it?

    First, seriously, WebOS is far more advanced than was the iPhone 1.0. That's clearly true, and it seems silly--and interestingly pointless--to argue otherwise. In fact, WebOS has more capabilities in some areas than did the iPhone 2.0/3G. It even does some things that isn't even yet a gleam in the eye of iPhone 3.0/3GS.

    Second, you kind of just proved the point of my post. You're being snarky for no apparent purpose that I can see.

    In the end, I really have to wonder. If you have such a negative opinion of WebOS, then why are you here? I mean, for real: what's your point? If you hate cats (or dogs, or ponies, or whatever), do you go to forums dedicated to them and tell everyone how much?
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  7. #7  
    I'm quite serious. It really does seem like webOS was targeted to compete with a 2 year old iPhone. Sure we have some multi tasking and homebrew support but beyond that. The lack of MMS thing was more of a AT&T issue.

    Given that the iPhone was launch over 2 years ago I would expect webOS to be much much farther along when it was released.
  8. Leke's Avatar
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    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I'm quite serious. It really does seem like webOS was targeted to compete with a 2 year old iPhone. Sure we have some multi tasking and homebrew support but beyond that. The lack of MMS thing was more of a AT&T issue.

    Given that the iPhone was launch over 2 years ago I would expect webOS to be much much farther along when it was released.
    I completly agree. You've had several other platforms as examples, and the lack of video recording, voice memo, LED notifications and a multitude of what I personally believe are "basic" functions are missing from the Pre.

    If not for hombrew trust me Pre would be a total sham....
  9. #9  
    I think this is a great indicator that Palm is doing good and will do much better, and improve webOS a lot:
    (go to palm.com , on the footer click on careers, and search)
    (sorry cant post links yet)

    They're hiring tons of Engineers
  10. Leke's Avatar
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by freezefire View Post
    I think this is a great indicator that Palm is doing good and will do much better, and improve webOS a lot:
    (go to palm.com , on the footer click on careers, and search)
    (sorry cant post links yet)

    They're hiring tons of Engineers
    So it's NOW they're hiring engineers?
  11. #11  
    Wynand, your comparison just doesn't hold water.

    The original iPhone was not MEANT to do what the Pre does. It was built above all other things to leverage the huge share of iPod owners who were already part of iTunes and the Apple ecosystem to act as a foundation for Apple's entry into phones.

    So obviously it wouldn't have "synergy" or "multitasking" because these weren't even relatively useful concepts for Apple in January 2007. The Pre having these things in 2009 at launch is meaningless as far as compare and contrast. Apple MEANT to have a great media playing and syncing app on the device. They did. They MEANT to have the best mobile web browsing experience, and they still do two years later.

    You've made the point in this thread and elsewhere today that Palm is likely doing all they can, and I just can't agree with that. They continue to make decisions that I think are handicapping WebOS as a platform and the Pre as a successful flagship device.

    Cardfan's pointed this out well, but I can't stress what a bad idea I think the Pixi is. The concept of it as a candybar WebOS phone is just dandy, and it's great that the OS can translate to multiple form factors. But making it slower, less capable, and cheaper is a HORRIBLE idea. The Pre price is already dropping steadily due to market pressures, and it will soon reside in Centro-esque pricing territory ANYWAY. So why try to undercut it with a new device that is less profitable, stuck on the same carrier that is launching two flagship Android phones and turning their attention elsewhere, and will make the baseline WebOS spec for apps to be a hobbled Pre (which is what the Pixi is, essentially). Oh, and did I mention they're splitting the market between a wiFi-equipped device and WiFi-less one?

    Did you see the Android 2.0 SDK announcement today or iPhone 3.0's announcement in March? These things excite people and build brand loyalty and excitement because they are moving FORWARD with their platforms and steadily adding more capable hardware and features. It's hard to get similarly excited for WebOS's future, because:

    1) Palm says almost nothing for what their vision and goals for the next 2-3 months are software-wise. Apple and Google announced new OS features MONTHS before either release was ready to ship.
    2) Whatever comes down the pike will have to run on the Pixi and be able to use its hardware.

    There's a LOT more - from making better hardware decisions to building and maintaining hype for upcoming OS features to giving up on iTunes sync - that Palm could be doing, and they're not.
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Wynand, your comparison just doesn't hold water.

    The original iPhone was not MEANT to do what the Pre does. It was built above all other things to leverage the huge share of iPod owners who were already part of iTunes and the Apple ecosystem to act as a foundation for Apple's entry into phones.

    So obviously it wouldn't have "synergy" or "multitasking" because these weren't even relatively useful concepts for Apple in January 2007. The Pre having these things in 2009 at launch is meaningless as far as compare and contrast. Apple MEANT to have a great media playing and syncing app on the device. They did. They MEANT to have the best mobile web browsing experience, and they still do two years later.

    You've made the point in this thread and elsewhere today that Palm is likely doing all they can, and I just can't agree with that. They continue to make decisions that I think are handicapping WebOS as a platform and the Pre as a successful flagship device.

    Cardfan's pointed this out well, but I can't stress what a bad idea I think the Pixi is. The concept of it as a candybar WebOS phone is just dandy, and it's great that the OS can translate to multiple form factors. But making it slower, less capable, and cheaper is a HORRIBLE idea. The Pre price is already dropping steadily due to market pressures, and it will soon reside in Centro-esque pricing territory ANYWAY. So why try to undercut it with a new device that is less profitable, stuck on the same carrier that is launching two flagship Android phones and turning their attention elsewhere, and will make the baseline WebOS spec for apps to be a hobbled Pre (which is what the Pixi is, essentially). Oh, and did I mention they're splitting the market between a wiFi-equipped device and WiFi-less one?

    Did you see the Android 2.0 SDK announcement today or iPhone 3.0's announcement in March? These things excite people and build brand loyalty and excitement because they are moving FORWARD with their platforms and steadily adding more capable hardware and features. It's hard to get similarly excited for WebOS's future, because:

    1) Palm says almost nothing for what their vision and goals for the next 2-3 months are software-wise. Apple and Google announced new OS features MONTHS before either release was ready to ship.
    2) Whatever comes down the pike will have to run on the Pixi and be able to use its hardware.

    There's a LOT more - from making better hardware decisions to building and maintaining hype for upcoming OS features to giving up on iTunes sync - that Palm could be doing, and they're not.
    All of which leaves me wondering: if you feel that Palm and the WebOS platform are such failures, then what's your point in participating at Precentral? I'm not questioning your "right" to do so, but rather your motivation. I know that I participate because I like my Pre, find it useful (albeit, not perfect) and want to contribute to moving the platform forward. If I didn't feel any of these things, then I know I'd have far better things to do.

    And I should note: I don't agree with all of your assessment, but I recognize that some is a little subjective (which is to say, your facts aren't any worse than mine, and so you could certainly come to a different conclusion on some points). While I believe that Palm is doing everything they can to move the platform forward, that doesn't mean I believe they're infallible. I simply recognize that they're a company of a certain size with a certain amount of resources available to them, and I try to be realistic about what that means.

    But I will say this: you did a nice job of differentiating Apple's intentions from Palm's. Yes, it makes sense that Apple's objectives with the iPhone were different from Palm's with the Pre, and the same goes for Google with Android. What you haven't done is justified why Palm's approach is worse than either, or why Palm could be capable of miraculously accelerating development simply because Apple and Google have already been on the market for some time.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post

    You've made the point in this thread and elsewhere today that Palm is likely doing all they can, and I just can't agree with that. They continue to make decisions that I think are handicapping WebOS as a platform and the Pre as a successful flagship device.
    +100.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I'm quite serious. It really does seem like webOS was targeted to compete with a 2 year old iPhone. Sure we have some multi tasking and homebrew support but beyond that. The lack of MMS thing was more of a AT&T issue.

    Given that the iPhone was launch over 2 years ago I would expect webOS to be much much farther along when it was released.
    Except that WebOS does many things the the iPhone that was launched over 2 years ago did not do (and some that it still does not do).

    Ready to 'fess up to being at least a little "snarky", or would you like a list?
  15. #15  
    I think the biggest difference here is that although at the same stage in its life teh iphone had similar issues, but the difference is that apple had all of the financial resources available to quickly move the phone along where as it has been stated time and time again that palms lack of resources is what is holding them up.

    pair this with the flood of similar phones hitting the market and palms lack of communication as to what is to come and when spells trouble.
  16. Clipse's Avatar
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    #16  
    This isn't any perspective since the pre is competing against phones that can do all those "basic" features. The iphone wasn't competing with other phones. It was revolutionary and apple has a dedicated market of f@n boys and the best advertising work of any company. The question is does palm have the time to make WebOs into a much better os? The next coming months the pre is facing superior winmo and android phones.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    ...
    But I will say this: you did a nice job of differentiating Apple's intentions from Palm's. Yes, it makes sense that Apple's objectives with the iPhone were different from Palm's with the Pre, and the same goes for Google with Android. What you haven't done is justified why Palm's approach is worse than either, or why Palm could be capable of miraculously accelerating development simply because Apple and Google have already been on the market for some time.
    Also, I think it's worth noting that these perceived "failures" on Palm's part may be reflective of:
    • His lack of understanding of what Palm's goals are with WebOS and the Pre
    • A totally different goal by Palm than either Apple's goals with the iPhone, or Google's goals with the Android (which you alluded to).

    I think the "AntiPres" confuse their desire for Palm with Palm's desire for Palm.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Leke View Post
    So it's NOW they're hiring engineers?
    No, it's now that they're hiring more engineers. It's a business thing. You start making more money, selling more of your new product, you start hiring more people.

    I think it probably also indicates that there are likely more devices running WebOS coming down the pike.
  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    I think the biggest difference here is that although at the same stage in its life teh iphone had similar issues, but the difference is that apple had all of the financial resources available to quickly move the phone along where as it has been stated time and time again that palms lack of resources is what is holding them up.

    pair this with the flood of similar phones hitting the market and palms lack of communication as to what is to come and when spells trouble.
    I both agree with you and disagree (?)... The iPhone did have the same "issues" (i.e., it had limitations, quirks, and bugs), and Apple does have more resources. However, I wouldn't say that Apple really moved any more quickly. After all, the iPhone 3G, a year later, didn't resolve all of the issues with iPhone 1.0. It didn't add MMS, it didn't add cut and paste, it didn't add video recording, etc., etc. It wasn't until the 3GS that those features were added, and the 3GS still does notifications horribly and doesn't meaningfully multitask. In 2009.

    Of course, somehow, Palm is supposed to move more quickly than both Apple and Google, even though they have less than 5% of those companies' resources and personnel. Perhaps they're supposed to have just copied, wholesale, what Apple and Google have done so far? I think there might be laws against that sort of thing...
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Of course, somehow, Palm is supposed to move more quickly than both Apple and Google, even though they have less than 5% of those companies' resources and personnel. Perhaps they're supposed to have just copied, wholesale, what Apple and Google have done so far? I think there might be laws against that sort of thing...
    You're missing the point entirely. It's not about whether Palm moves more quickly than Google or Apple (although it's worth noting that in a little bit more than a year, Android has undergone several major, major revisions).

    The point is that the direction that Palm appears to be heading is not conducive to successful competition with Android or the iphone going forward. The crippled SDK is the best example. That's not a matter of not having enough time or resources, etc. It was a deliberate decision, albeit an extraordinarily puzzling one.

    If Palm is happy to play third fiddle to Android and Apple, I guess that's fine. It remains to be seen whether the emerging market will be large enough to accommodate all of those players. But it's certainly disappointing for those of us who were hoping for more ambitious development. The Pre itself (hardware, etc) has enormous potential that Palm appears content to leave wholly untapped. That's a shame.
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