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  1. #21  
    I never said that palm was supposed to move as fast as apple/google but that they can not which in my opinion (MY OPINION) will lead to their downfall unless of course they find a way to pick up the pace.

    Honestly I think is palm was open with consumers and let them know in advance what was to come and an estimated time frame it would generate a buzz and some excitement (ONCE AGAIN JUST MY OPINION)
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    It's a business thing.
    "Business"? What's "business"? You mean there's some kind of thing that contributes to how these things called "companies" make their decisions? I thought they just kind of did whatever they wanted, and if it's not what we wanted them to do, then they're just idiots? No?

    (There, that's me being snarky.)
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  3. Smolira's Avatar
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    #23  
    I've wondered why some of the people stay on this board complaining all the time. While criticism is valid and can improve the product, I have had enough of the "Pre and WebOS" suck posts myself. I stayed at a hotel for a conference last week. It was a dump. Guess what? I won't go back, but I don't spend my time complaining about it and making 20 posts a day why it sucked. If you don't like the Pre or WebOS, leave. It's a simple thing to do.
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomh1102 View Post
    I never said that palm was supposed to move as fast as apple/google but that they can not which in my opinion (MY OPINION) will lead to their downfall unless of course they find a way to pick up the pace.

    Honestly I think is palm was open with consumers and let them know in advance what was to come and an estimated time frame it would generate a buzz and some excitement (ONCE AGAIN JUST MY OPINION)
    Can't disagree with the first part. As I've said many times (it seems), Palm might very well fail. But that's not really a meaningful point of discussion, unless you're just into discussing business theory.

    As far as being open with customers and potential customers (I hate the whole idea of "consumers"; we're _all_ fricking consumers, as well as being producers, at least one would hope), that's a double-edged sword. Things are bad enough when Palm's being held responsible for things they _haven't_ promised. I can only imagine how bad things would be if they actually started promising things.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Smolira View Post
    I've wondered why some of the people stay on this board complaining all the time. While criticism is valid and can improve the product, I have had enough of the "Pre and WebOS" suck posts myself. I stayed at a hotel for a conference last week. It was a dump. Guess what? I won't go back, but I don't spend my time complaining about it and making 20 posts a day why it sucked. If you don't like the Pre or WebOS, leave. It's a simple thing to do.
    It's pithy compared to my posts, but I like it...
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Clipse View Post
    superior winmo
    Oxymoron.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Smolira View Post
    I've wondered why some of the people stay on this board complaining all the time. While criticism is valid and can improve the product, I have had enough of the "Pre and WebOS" suck posts myself. I stayed at a hotel for a conference last week. It was a dump. Guess what? I won't go back, but I don't spend my time complaining about it and making 20 posts a day why it sucked. If you don't like the Pre or WebOS, leave. It's a simple thing to do.
    This would make a lot more sense if people weren't locked into two-year contracts with pretty expensive costs associated with early termination.

    Your hotel analogy doesn't apply.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by awesomepatrol View Post
    This would make a lot more sense if people weren't locked into two-year contracts with pretty expensive costs associated with early termination.

    Your hotel analogy doesn't apply.
    And you think that complaining here is going to change things? I suppose you might, in which case perhaps you'd agree that constructive critiscm and not mindless complaints and uninformed business analyses would be more effective?
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by awesomepatrol View Post
    The point is that the direction that Palm appears to be heading is not conducive to successful competition with Android or the iphone going forward. The crippled SDK is the best example. That's not a matter of not having enough time or resources, etc. It was a deliberate decision, albeit an extraordinarily puzzling one.
    See, now, I just don't understand that position. On what are you basing the notion that it was a "deliberate decision" on Palm's part to "cripple" the SDK? Why are you so certain that extending the SDK isn't a matter of time and resources? If not, what's it a matter of? Whim?
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    See, now, I just don't understand that position. On what are you basing the notion that it was a "deliberate decision" on Palm's part to "cripple" the SDK? Why are you so certain that extending the SDK isn't a matter of time and resources? If not, what's it a matter of? Whim?
    Because a full-blown SDK is obviously out there -- apps like Classic are written native and Palm has plainly used it to develop its own applications.

    Look, people are here having a discussion about where they see the platform going and how it stacks up versus everything else out there. I'm sorry if people saying less than glowing things about Palm really ruins your day. Fortunately for you, there is a really easy solution to this one: just don't read the posts.
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by awesomepatrol View Post
    Because a full-blown SDK is obviously out there -- apps like Classic are written native and Palm has plainly used it to develop its own applications.

    Look, people are here having a discussion about where they see the platform going and how it stacks up versus everything else out there. I'm sorry if people saying less than glowing things about Palm really ruins your day. Fortunately for you, there is a really easy solution to this one: just don't read the posts.
    I'm all for reasonable and constructive criticsm. I and others have stated that many times. At the same time, in many cases I'm not even trying to defend Palm, but rather am simply responding to what I see as unreasonable and uninformed posts that are negative in an over-the-top way for no apparent reason. The claim that Palm is deliberately withholding access to the SDK (for some nefarious or for no reason) is an example.

    Regarding the SDK, Palm working hand-in-hand with one developer on one application is not the same as opening things up to thousands of developers. Of course.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by awesomepatrol View Post
    You're missing the point entirely. It's not about whether Palm moves more quickly than Google or Apple (although it's worth noting that in a little bit more than a year, Android has undergone several major, major revisions).

    The point is that the direction that Palm appears to be heading is not conducive to successful competition with Android or the iphone going forward. The crippled SDK is the best example. That's not a matter of not having enough time or resources, etc. It was a deliberate decision, albeit an extraordinarily puzzling one.

    If Palm is happy to play third fiddle to Android and Apple, I guess that's fine. It remains to be seen whether the emerging market will be large enough to accommodate all of those players. But it's certainly disappointing for those of us who were hoping for more ambitious development. The Pre itself (hardware, etc) has enormous potential that Palm appears content to leave wholly untapped. That's a shame.
    You realize that Palm has said, almost from the day the announced the Pre, that they believe there is room in the market for several players, clearly indicating that they didn't intend to try to unseat the iPhone (or other players). Frankly, I think a more reasonable target would be Blackberry, and even at that, only a portion of their market.
    But Palm has said their target is new users in the market.
  13. Kedar's Avatar
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    #33  
    I feel like we're in a different realm though.
    I like the phone and all, but I wonder if it can compete with newer Android phones.

    I wonder if it will ever get the Iphone status... or will the droid steal that.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedar View Post
    I feel like we're in a different realm though.
    I like the phone and all, but I wonder if it can compete with newer Android phones.

    I wonder if it will ever get the Iphone status... or will the droid steal that.
    I tried the G1, and then the HTC Hero before picking the Pre. And I've been a iPhone user for 2 years, 2G to 3G to 3GS.
    And I still think the Pre has a bright future. Of course it's not going to be easy. Who knows what Apple will come up with next. But I don't see Android as much of a problem, I really disliked the software, and HTC hardware sucks. The touchscreens are horrible. Sometimes had to tap the same button several times for it to register the tap.

    Another big problem for Palm would be if Apple starts partnering with some other carrier. Because the iPhone's biggest flaw is AT&T

    Just my opinion
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    You realize that Palm has said, almost from the day the announced the Pre, that they believe there is room in the market for several players, clearly indicating that they didn't intend to try to unseat the iPhone (or other players). Frankly, I think a more reasonable target would be Blackberry, and even at that, only a portion of their market.
    But Palm has said their target is new users in the market.
    As I read your post and re-read the post you're responding to, I had a duh! moment. That is, I'm certain that, yes, Palm would be more than happy to "play third fiddle to Android and Apple." Ecstatic, in fact. The smartphone market is growing very rapidly, and so third place will mean millions of units sold over the next few years--and I'm guessing that's more than enough to create and maintain a viable applications ecosystem.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by awesomepatrol View Post
    This would make a lot more sense if people weren't locked into two-year contracts with pretty expensive costs associated with early termination.

    Your hotel analogy doesn't apply.
    To be fair, any of the Sprint plans associated with the Pre qualify the user for the 1 year upgrade, rather than forcing them to wait on a 2 year. You still have to stick with Sprint, but knowing what you getting into with a provider should be part of making the decision.

    That said, if I didn't see the usability (or lack of same) with a device such as the Pre within 30 days, I'd need the rest of the year to fully explore what it could do.
  17. s219's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    I both agree with you and disagree (?)... The iPhone did have the same "issues" (i.e., it had limitations, quirks, and bugs), and Apple does have more resources. However, I wouldn't say that Apple really moved any more quickly. After all, the iPhone 3G, a year later, didn't resolve all of the issues with iPhone 1.0. It didn't add MMS, it didn't add cut and paste, it didn't add video recording, etc., etc. It wasn't until the 3GS that those features were added, and the 3GS still does notifications horribly and doesn't meaningfully multitask. In 2009.


    I think a big difference is that when the iPhone came out in 2007, with warts and all, it redefined the idea of a smart phone. There was no "baseline" to really compare the iPhone against because it raised the bar, and literally has become the bar. If the Pre were released in 2007, it would likely have had the same effect. But in 2009, it's going to be compared to the "bar" that is currently the iPhone 3GS. Palm doesn't automatically get a pass just because it's a first generation device and other first generation devices (including iPhone) also had growing pains. It's going up against a third generation trendsetter and a second generation Android that is getting pretty good.

    If Apple re-released the iPhone 1.0 right now with the 1.0 OS, I am pretty sure people would rip it apart too. The bar has moved.

    When competing in a hot and rapidly changing market, you at least have to keep up with the competition. That means entering the market with a mature device that can compare legitimately with competitors from the get-go. If you want to make waves, you have to leapfrog the state of the art. In contrast, I think Palm is just barely keeping its head above the water and has yet to reach the mature point.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    I think a big difference is that when the iPhone came out in 2007, with warts and all, it redefined the idea of a smart phone. There was no "baseline" to really compare the iPhone against because it raised the bar, and literally has become the bar. If the Pre were released in 2007, it would likely have had the same effect. But in 2009, it's going to be compared to the "bar" that is currently the iPhone 3GS. Palm doesn't automatically get a pass just because it's a first generation device and other first generation devices (including iPhone) also had growing pains. It's going up against a third generation trendsetter and a second generation Android that is getting pretty good.

    If Apple re-released the iPhone 1.0 right now with the 1.0 OS, I am pretty sure people would rip it apart too. The bar has moved.

    When competing in a hot and rapidly changing market, you at least have to keep up with the competition. That means entering the market with a mature device that can compare legitimately with competitors from the get-go. If you want to make waves, you have to leapfrog the state of the art. In contrast, I think Palm is just barely keeping its head above the water and has yet to reach the mature point.
    Sorry, I disagree that the original iPhone "raised the bar" for smartphones. It did in some very specific areas (browser), but not so much in others (phone, PIM, apps). Those standards had already been set, largely by Palm.

    I'd agree that Apple changed the bar, but not raised it. They did not "keep up" with competition at all. Their "new phone" sucked compared to what was out there. However, it introduced something new (a very good established media platform combined with a phone).

    Is that much different from what Palm is trying to do, introduce something new combined with some tried and true features?
  19. s219's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Sorry, I disagree that the original iPhone "raised the bar" for smartphones. It did in some very specific areas (browser), but not so much in others (phone, PIM, apps). Those standards had already been set, largely by Palm.

    I'd agree that Apple changed the bar, but not raised it. They did not "keep up" with competition at all. Their "new phone" sucked compared to what was out there. However, it introduced something new (a very good established media platform combined with a phone).

    Is that much different from what Palm is trying to do, introduce something new combined with some tried and true features?

    The iPhone definitely did not keep up with competing devices of the time -- to even suggest "keeping up" would have been competitive is like saying Henry Ford should have just given customers faster horses. Frankly, I thought all smart phones sucked prior to the iPhone -- it was the first device to come along and make me think it was really a capable pocket computer that happened to make phone calls. And that was exactly what many customers were looking for. The ease of use and elegance of the interface was a welcome departure from WinMo and other crap that was dominating smart phones at the time. I had a Treo for work, and I could immediately see that it was a dinosaur, despite having many specific features that the iPhone didn't (and still doesn't).

    I remember having lunch with some coworkers about a year ago when some discussion about sales figures came up. About 4 people at the table got out their smart phones, pulled out the stylus, and started slowly/painfully pecking away. I picked up the iPhone, launched an app, spoke the phrase "tell me about 2006 sales of xyz" and had the answer in seconds. That level of simplicity and effectiveness sums it up for me. There are many other examples like that where the iPhone killed existing devices of the time.

    We can argue about the minutiae of the devices, but it's far easier to focus on impact and success. I don't think there's any argument against the success and impact of the iPhone. WebOS introduces some great new ideas, but it's simply not on track to have a big impact or success in this post-2007 iPhone-enlightened world. I think it is a huge deal that Palm has basically acknowledged their older devices are in the past, but they have not defined a new category like the iPhone did. They merely dipped a couple toes into the pool that the iPhone established.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    ...
    I think it is a huge deal that Palm has basically acknowledged their older devices are in the past, but they have not defined a new category like the iPhone did. They merely dipped a couple toes into the pool that the iPhone established.
    Are you really suggesting that iPhone (with the original iPhone) did something more than add a phone to the iTouch?

    They basically "dipped a couple toes into the pool" that Palm and RIM created. There was no "plan" (which is why they didn't have an App Store or an SDK for a year).

    The Pre may not be a radical departure, but it is a departure from the iPhone model. Would you like me to count the ways?
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