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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    donm527, I largely agree. They had to get it out when they did.

    But that puts us back at the central mystery that I hope is unraveled one day:

    Why wasn't using the GPU and adding OpenGL support for developers considered at the earliest, most conceptual stages?
    Because the WebOS UI is Palm's preferred "treatment". They want developers to use that first, then use lower level stuff if WebOS won't cut it. I thought that was pretty clear reading between the lines when they first talked about the SDK.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I would think it's a given that features are throttled back on devices. Sometimes, it's for strategic reasons. Sometimes, it's for performance reasons. Sometimes, it's for carrier reasons. Sometimes, the company just doesn't think it's important enough to support at that time.

    But I agree that the newest interfaces from HTC, Palm, and even the MotoBLUR thingy make Apple's "Go to home screen and tap THIS icon. Ok, go back and tap THIS icon." homescreen look old.
    I think the two bolded sentences would answer most of the "why did they do it this way" questions for you.

    I understand that you're not satisfied with that answer, which is the reason this may not be the device for you. If it comes closest to actually being the device for you, then you should relax and enjoy what it does. When something better comes, that's closer to what you want, then jump.

    I've really never understood the "I've bought it, but it's not what I want, so I'll complain and trash it" stuff. If anything is that dissatisfying, why not take it back?
  3. gbp
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    #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post

    The 3GS is the hardware piece that completes the puzzle. Previous iPhones were not engineered to support third party apps well, if at all. It's a struggle to get some of my games living within 20-30MB free memory available on the older devices, and doing it requires a careful dance to work with memory notifications and gracefully deallocate if one of the background apps demands it. Those limits are gone on the 3GS, and we have significantly better performance and graphics capabilities. The 3GS is the iPhone that finally realizes the full potential of the platform and it's third party developers in a world driven by apps.

    From that standpoint, I see the Pre, with hardware that's nearly as capable, being saddled by an OS that is not very well optimized and not as sophisticated as it could be. The Pre has iPhone 3GS level hardware but the OS is crippling it to a point that it's not even reaching iPhone OS 1.0 levels of capability and performance. And the SDK is too limited for developers to really do any great work.
    So you are mad at PALM , I guess you cannot port your games over to WebOS because the SDK is so cheap that it cannot support graphics and is generally sluggish ?

    Other than the games thing , what else you think WebOS is lacking compared to iPhone OS. ?
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    #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    Your post history here reveals that you find that reference obnoxious when it's applied to your love of Apple, but not when someone here, on the Palm forum, expresses a postitive opinion about Palm or one of its products.

    Your slip is showing.
    When did product appreciation become monogamous? I carry both an iPhone and a Pre because while both are great, NEITHER fit my expectations as a standalone device. But when combined like Voltron then they do everything I need.

    And since you're making this personal then let me point out what makes your opinions so useless. Sure, I may rub people the wrong way on Pre and Apple boards for being critical of both devices, but at least my opinions are based on actual usage. But what about you? You waste time spreading hate about a product that you have no desire on ever owning and slamming strangers for making decisions that fits their lives rather than yours.

    Picking the product that fits your life doesn't make you a sheep. It makes you a smart consumer.

    (BTW. Yes, I am embarrassed for getting taking GMoney's bait)
    Last edited by Urkel; 10/14/2009 at 01:35 PM.
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    #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by rkkeller View Post
    When purchasing a device I research and buy on what it can do "now" not what I hope it can do "eventually"...

    I liked the Pre from day one but it would have made no sense for me to have bought it on release only to complain about what it cant do that I already knew it couldn't.
    Whereas I was exactly the opposite

    I came from using a HTC Mogul with Windows Mobile 6.1 and was searching for any newer and innovative platform and coming from a mostly linux background the Pre seemed like the easy choice. I bought the device as soon as I could afford it knowing very well that webOS is a brand new platform and will suffer some 'growing pains' and that it probably won't even reach it's full potential on this device.

    However despite it's limitations I've been loving it. I think webOS really has a way to shine but I think it needs to open itself into a more client/server model for app development, it can't compete with low level software available for symbian and iphone with using simply javascript, we need to find that right balance point between using javascript to display the information, video, images, interactivity to the user while still having backend workhorse applications or the OS as a whole may be stifled in development (in my opinion, it's just how I've observed things so far and am hardly a good enough developer to take anything I say with more then a grain of salt).
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    I don't like sheep on any platform, in fact I probably spend as much time tangling with Apple sheep as Palm sheep (and that's saying something). The problem with people blindly accepting products/technology is that they never demand better or know better.
    ...
    I think what you are writing off as "sheep" are actually people who have wants and needs for a device that are simply different from yours.

    Yes, it's nice that Palm put a hot rod graphics chip in it; but it's not of primary importance to me, because I don't play serious games on my phone. As a matter of fact, I don't really play games on my PC.

    That's not to say that's what the other Pre owners want, but it's what I wanted. I looked long and hard at the iPhone before I decided on a Pre. I didn't choose the Pre over iPhone because I'm a "sheep", I chose it because the iPhone, with it's nice graphics chip, and it's 40-50,000 apps (at the time) didn't suit what I was looking for in a smartphone. As a matter of fact, I had already decided to buy a BlackBerry to replace my Treo, because it suited my needs at the time.

    Your post talked about how the "sheep" mentality nearly drove Apple to bankruptcy. I agree about that in general (though I don't agree that it was some great masterminded genuis that pulled them back; sorry, but I personally believe that the idea of adding phone capabilities to the iTouch was more of a fluke success than anything else, but I digress); however, that comparison doesn't really apply to the Pre.

    It was because Palm broke away from what the "sheep" wanted that they didn't go bankrupt. Even now, a big chunk of the complaints about the Pre are because it's not doing what the Treo did from former Treo owners that, for some reason, expected Palm to rewrite everything Treo to the Pre.

    I think it would have been a mistake for Palm to try to duplicate the iPhone, and that's essentially what you are saying they should have done. They would have failed miserably.

    Instead, they came up with a device whose two biggest "claims to faim" were Synergy, and new innovative user interface. To have immediately (or even quickly) released a more powerfule SDK would have undermined the consistency of the user interface, and I think that would have hindered them in the long run.

    The best example I can think of to show what I'm talking about is Adobe products on Windows machines (Adobe Pagemaker, Illustrator, Photoshop, etc). These products are great, but I have trouble with them. Primarily because I'm a Windows desktop user, and these programs basically ignore the Windows APIs for their user interface. I find them cumbersome to use and that frustrates me. The only reason I bother using them at all is because the employers have had continue to pay for me to have them.

    I can't say I'm 100% sure I'm right, but I stronly suspect this consistency in UI is part of the reason that Palm is not rushing a more robust SDK out. I think they want to get as much out of the what they've got as they can.

    However, the biggest thrust of this is that I believe your assessment of why people are willing to "wait" on Palm is far from the mark. Far from being sheep or simply cheerleaders, some of us see the strides they are making, and believe them to be positive.

    For those that don't, I think most of us have no real problems if they decide to go to another device. And I agree, that doing so will show Palm that they messed up by marketing to people like me, instead of to people like you.
  7.    #127  
    what are the chances that palm is already working on a successor to the pre considering apple is working on theres among other companies. Is there a possibility that palm wont make the pre use all of its capabilities. I just hope we wont be left in the dark with just a few insignificant updates every once in a while rather than something big.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    When did product appreciation become monogamous? I carry both an iPhone and a Pre because NEITHER fit my expectations as a standalone device, but combined they do the job just fine.

    And since you're making this personal then let me point out what makes your opinions so useless. Sure, I may rub people the wrong way on Pre and Apple boards for being critical of both devices, but at least my opinions are based on actual usage. But what about you? You waste time spreading hate about a product that you have no desire on ever owning and slamming strangers for making decisions that fits their lives rather than yours.

    Picking the product that fits your life doesn't make you a sheep. It makes you a smart consumer.
    Spreading hate? Am I on an iPhone forum? If sheep doesn't apply to you, why you so worried about it?

    If you feel my opinions are useless, there's an ignore button right in front of you.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by gregcolon3 View Post
    what are the chances that palm is already working on a successor to the pre considering apple is working on theres among other companies. Is there a possibility that palm wont make the pre use all of its capabilities. I just hope we wont be left in the dark with just a few insignificant updates every once in a while rather than something big.
    There's little doubt in my mind that Palm is working on a successor at the hardware level. I also suspect that about the time the Pixi was finished, the majority of the hardware team was reassigned to just such a project. (Side note, I don't know why, but it seems that some folks around here think that every employee resource at Palm has the ability to shift from hardware design to OS development to application programming at some corporate head's whim, but I digress).

    I think what we'll see is new hardware that still uses the same WebOS SDK, along with lower level stuff that is accessed by newer versions of the SDK. I suspect that's what the OS group is really concentrating on. As that type of support firms up, new/updated hardware will be less of an issue.

    Think of at as Windows having library support for new pieces of hardware coming out. Once WebOS is better fleshed out, new devices won't require a rewrite, just the WebOS equivalent of new DLLs.

    BTW, I don't think the possiblity of working on such devices really has anything to do with what Apple is doing. I think it would have more to do with seeing what nearly happened to Palm because of trying to ride the same basice OS and device design too long.
  10. #130  
    I think it would have been a mistake for Palm to try to duplicate the iPhone, and that's essentially what you are saying they should have done. They would have failed miserably.
    I don't think its avoidable. Many think Palm positioned this as an iphone killer. The media would have you believe it. Palm never did although they did seem to follow up certain apple events with their own announcements and have poked at itunes to create a hyped up perception of a war between palm and Apple.

    IMO, Palm should take it to Apple. If its PRPRPR $they$'$re$ $wanting$ $then$ $take$ $the$ $gloves$ $off$ $and$ $start$ $punching$. $Make$ $some$ $commercials$ $that$ $directly$ $makes$ $Apple$ $look$ $foolish$ $in$ $comparisons$. $Verizon$ $did$ $a$ $great$ $one$ $aimed$ $at$ $AT$&$amp$;$T$.

    Palm has strengths to highlight in such commercials that Apple doesn't such as multitasking, notifications, UI navigation, etc..certainly enough to make some funny jabs at them that not only finally shows off the Pre but directly shows how its better than the iphone.

    The value of Apple putting down Microsoft in its commercials has paid off. A Mac's library of software compared to windows is like the Pre's app catalog to Apple's app store. Apple's gaming can't compare to what windows offers yet apple is still throwing out commercials aimed directly at MS.
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    #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by rkkeller View Post
    The Pre could catch up easily in terms of sound "quality" apps IMO.
    That's the problem though, it really can't. There are several critical limitations in the SDK that will prevent those types of apps. It's not a matter of catchup, or attention from developers, or market growth, or other outside factors. The SDK is lacking some of the technologies and capabilities that make the good iPhone apps what they are. I get customer requests for my apps on Pre several times a week, and it's frustrating to explain to customers (who I would be thrilled to support) that it's not possible right now and may not ever be. I could change gears and do more basic web apps, but people are not asking for that.
  12. s219's Avatar
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    #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    Like I said, Apple has tested multitasking... they decided for whatever reason they couldnt do it. Rumor is that they are going to enable the FM radio on the phones now and have an app that will run in the background... so they are getting in it slowly.
    They already have multi-tasking of 6-7 core apps, including the iPod app, so the new FM capability is not really a big deal. I imagine it may even fold into the iPod app.
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    #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    That's the problem though, it really can't. There are several critical limitations in the SDK that will prevent those types of apps. It's not a matter of catchup, or attention from developers, or market growth, or other outside factors. The SDK is lacking some of the technologies and capabilities that make the good iPhone apps what they are. I get customer requests for my apps on Pre several times a week, and it's frustrating to explain to customers (who I would be thrilled to support) that it's not possible right now and may not ever be. I could change gears and do more basic web apps, but people are not asking for that.
    What are some examples of apps (besides games) that you can create on the iPhone, but cannot on the Pre? (Or I guess what specifically in terms of capability is lacking with the Web OS SDK vs the iPhone SDK?)
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    #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think the sheep here are trying to stifle progress or innovation, I just get tired of hearing 1000 different doomsday predictions per day and all of the experts who, no matter what Palm does, say that they should've done something else. Regardless of how you spin it, you're willing to give Apple time and the benefit of the doubt on most anything while not even acknowledging that Palm is working to improve the platform.

    And this Palm, not Apple. Apple has mindshare and mind control while Palm is a company that can be put out of business by a crappy reputation earned by some BS poll on a website. I don't agree that we're working with a Chevette, (or that any GM product should be the target), but the fact that you don't believe they're not working to make it better is just not reality.

    I hope I am not coming across as doomsday, because my real intent is to drive the platform forward, and for it to become better.

    I have no doubt Palm is working to improve the platform, but I think it's obvious they are sinking a lot of strained resources into 1.1,1.2, app catalog, etc. It's a pity they can't allocate that manpower and effort into 2.X. Yes, the 2.X effort is surely underway, but significant resources are still being put into 1.X right now.
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    #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Yes, it's nice that Palm put a hot rod graphics chip in it; but it's not of primary importance to me, because I don't play serious games on my phone.
    Yes, but you would benefit from a better user experience, less power use, better battery life, etc. There are a whole cascade of benefits from graphics acceleration even if you never play a single game. This is the reason other companies use graphics acceleration and OpenGL in their OS from ground zero. More and more modern OSes are based on this concept.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    I hope I am not coming across as doomsday, because my real intent is to drive the platform forward, and for it to become better.
    I don't doubt that. I think you make great points on the development side and I have learned a lot from your postings.
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    #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    So you are mad at PALM , I guess you cannot port your games over to WebOS because the SDK is so cheap that it cannot support graphics and is generally sluggish ?

    Other than the games thing , what else you think WebOS is lacking compared to iPhone OS. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ev01 View Post
    What are some examples of apps (besides games) that you can create on the iPhone, but cannot on the Pre? (Or I guess what specifically in terms of capability is lacking with the Web OS SDK vs the iPhone SDK?)


    Let me try to address these both at once.

    In general, think about any of the tasks or operations on the Pre that are slow, sluggish, laggy, choppy, or non-existent compared to their iPhone counterparts running on near-equivalent hardware. Those would all improve with better hardware support and native software technologies. Could be things as simple as browsing photos or dealing with a calendar database.

    Some things that we can't do on the Pre right now are:

    * automotive performance
    * augmented reality
    * simulation
    * dynamic motion (high-freq accelerometer) apps
    * smooth 2D games with a lot of sprites and special effects
    * 3D games
    * apps that use sound processing, multiple sounds, etc
    * apps/games that integrate with the music library (ie, beyond players)
    * apps that use terrain rendering
    * robust image processing
    * video, video editing, video effects
    * smooth high speed animations/rendering

    Those are ones that are floating around in my field of view; I'm probably forgetting others.

    I think the Pre's strengths are currently leveraged in the Palm-supplied apps, some of the app catalog apps, and many of the homebrew apps. So we're seeing the strengths, and I don't mean to imply they are not there or unimportant. But customers are also looking for a lot of this other stuff which we can't deliver right now.
  18. #138  
    Ok, ok.. I missed some of the conversation, but I have to chime in again. Phones are like cars. Who makes the fastest race car?
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    Yes, but you would benefit from a better user experience, less power use, better battery life, etc. There are a whole cascade of benefits from graphics acceleration even if you never play a single game. This is the reason other companies use graphics acceleration and OpenGL in their OS from ground zero. More and more modern OSes are based on this concept.
    Better user experience, maybe. Less power use, so what? My battery lasts me all day the way I use it now. I hope you're seeing my point. Palm can only go so many directions at once. I think fleshing out what they've got now is the better option over graphics acceleration. This was touted as a webcentric device. Get the webcentric part down first, then start adding the deeper stuff.
  20. gbp
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    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post

    IMO, Palm should take it to Apple. If its PRPRPR $they$'$re$ $wanting$ $then$ $take$ $the$ $gloves$ $off$ $and$ $start$ $punching$. $Make$ $some$ $commercials$ $that$ $directly$ $makes$ $Apple$ $look$ $foolish$ $in$ $comparisons$. $Verizon$ $did$ $a$ $great$ $one$ $aimed$ $at$ $AT$&$amp$;$T$.

    The value of Apple putting down Microsoft in its commercials has paid off. A Mac's library of software compared to windows is like the Pre's app catalog to Apple's app store. Apple's gaming can't compare to what windows offers yet apple is still throwing out commercials aimed directly at MS.
    Bring it on!!!

    Timid , SPRINT / PALM combo. ( I think Dan Hesse likes APPLE )

    I want to see some commercials on the mainstream media.
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