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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    If palm did that, i'd praise them for it. But i don't think its BS to make things 2-3x as fast.
    You're correct, that's not BS. Neither is it a miraculous breakthrough. It's just what you do given time and resources.
  2. #102  
    Speed is relative...

    When 1st gen came out it moved pretty slick... just that with every update it was getting bigger and just causing it to run slower. It's a balance too because with new features you have to be concerned about battery drain too so they have been playing that balance game all the way through and dealing with bugs.

    Where we are at now... as said in other posts, I have the 2G for my daughter to play with and same software version as my 3GS... with cut and paste and all that, that thing is PAINFULLY slow and battery drains fast. Amazing how little things like cut/paste and all the other features change the whole thing. The 3GS... pretty smooth and fast and battery very good.

    Palm is most likely going through all this now... The WebOS is slick out of the box and as optimal as it could be at launch... but I think they are seeing with every patch/tweak they put in it's costing them in performance and battery. WebOS and multitasking looks great on paper but I think they are seeing why Apple hadnt gone gun-ho on it in the beginning. I think that's why four months out we are still where we are and hope they solve it quick or trying to get by until Pre2 comes out and they use a processor that will resolve their issues.

    Like I said, Apple has tested multitasking... they decided for whatever reason they couldnt do it. Rumor is that they are going to enable the FM radio on the phones now and have an app that will run in the background... so they are getting in it slowly.

    But next year with rumored multicore and other phones like Acers new Android with snap dragon running at 1ghz... you're gonna see stuff that couldnt be done properly with current chips from all phone types. Gonna get heated indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    I don't follow. The argument is that what is new about the 3GS is speed (on the 3rd generation of the phone, after 3 years of working on the exact same OS), which would imply that previous versions didn't have it. Meaning they weren't optimal out of the box on day one.

    Yet, in Palm's case, four months is too long??

    If anything, Palm's mistake was pushing the envelope with limited resources.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    I don't follow. The argument is that what is new about the 3GS is speed (on the 3rd generation of the phone, after 3 years of working on the exact same OS), which would imply that previous versions didn't have it. Meaning they weren't optimal out of the box on day one.

    Yet, in Palm's case, four months is too long??

    If anything, Palm's mistake was pushing the envelope with limited resources.
    You misunderstand. That's not the implication of the 3GS at all.

    The 3GS is the device they had to have available when iPhone OS 3.0 rolled around.

    When iPhone version 1 launched, the speed was optimal out of the box. After all, it only had to do browsing, media playing and phone calls.

    When iPhone 3G launched and native apps arrived, optimizations were made in the code to keep the speed and responsiveness in the same area, but the more features they added, the more the older hardware was taxed. Come June of 2009, it would be two-year old hardware trying to support a vastly expanded OS and countless apps. Of course, it would run slower.

    Hence the 3GS. But having an array of iPhone-owning friends, I saw what each device ran like when it was released. The Pre is not even close.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by donm527 View Post
    Palm is most likely going through all this now... The WebOS is slick out of the box and as optimal as it could be at launch... but I think they are seeing with every patch/tweak they put in it's costing them in performance and battery.
    But that's just it. It's NOT as optimal as it could be at launch. Optimal as it could be at launch would mean an OS that uses all of the available hardware. The Pre doesn't. Optimal would mean that simple animations like a popup box confirming a delete or scrolling through a call list would be smooth. It wasn't. Still isn't, even after five updates. Optimal would mean that looking at photos would be instantaneous after you load the thumbnails and the Photo app indexes them. It wasn't. Still isn't, even after five updates.

    It never was. And that's the problem.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    Don't hold your breath. RIM is good at their core competency -- communication devices with a fixed keyboard -- but they showed nothing but cluelessness with the Storm.
    ...
    RIM, Motorola, Nokia are well established companies in this market that were caught totally by surprise by the iPhone and have yet to really demonstrate they can compete. I wouldn't place bets on any of these companies just yet (just look at the Moto CLIQ for evidence). To Palm's credit, I think they have at least demonstrated the ability to re-tool their direction, which is far more than these other companies have been able to do.

    I'd group Palm with Apple as the only two players who really get it.
    Here's my guess, one of three things is going to happen with RIM:
    1. They will release a device that effectively compares to the iPhone (doesn't have to be an iPhone killer, just something that plays in the same neighborhood)
    2. They will pull away from manufacturing devices, and concentrate on making other devices compatible with Blackberry Enterprise Server
    3. They will begin to fade just as Palm did
    The reason I say this is that their real competency is in the messaging and security on the device, and its interaction with the backend (BES). BES is the keystone to their success. I've never looked closely at their financials, but I suspect they make as much, if not more, money off licensing BES as they do off selling devices (SharonW, where are you when we need you).

    Imagine if RIM offered mods for the iPhone, Pre, Android, etc that gave those devices the full security and reliability that BBs have. Think of them doing with BES what Microsoft has done with EAS (Exchange Active Sync).

    Personally, I never thought Microsoft would license their product to competing companies. I was surprised with what they did with EAS. I believe that BES is still a better product, but if RIM doesn't wake up and look around, corporations all over the country will be abandoning BES for EAS.
  6. #106  
    that is the problem but paraphrasing someone earlier... better a phone released than no phone and no palm.

    it's just that at this point you can really see where the phone and everything they talked about like app store was at time of release.

    the phone must have been still at a beta stage... i mean you get the OS stable at launch and moving as quickly as possible and slap on some things to work ok like cut and paste and then hope to make up for it with updates as fast as you can. And as long as you dont have any apps or much else to tax the system it's ok out of box.

    But from iphones history you see fixing bugs and correcting features and adding new ones cause more issues and you end up where you are now.

    That's also why the weak SDK... give programmers full access when the OS not 100% and they would be killing the system I bet and exposing flaws. So I understand why the SDK... and no doubt once they are satisfied with the OS then they will release a better SDK.

    IMO, the development of app store doesnt even look like it was even out of the drawing board at launch of the phone. I would have thought 4+ months into it and by european launch they would have caught up but to hear 1.3 in November with the memory error still in place and app store still not out of Beta? They have issues.

    But the truth is (or my opinion)... if they didnt come out with the phone when they did, there would be no pre phone or precentral.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    But that's just it. It's NOT as optimal as it could be at launch. Optimal as it could be at launch would mean an OS that uses all of the available hardware. The Pre doesn't. Optimal would mean that simple animations like a popup box confirming a delete or scrolling through a call list would be smooth. It wasn't. Still isn't, even after five updates. Optimal would mean that looking at photos would be instantaneous after you load the thumbnails and the Photo app indexes them. It wasn't. Still isn't, even after five updates.

    It never was. And that's the problem.
  7. #107  
    I have an iPhone 3GS, Treo 750 and Palm Pre and can do fair and impartial comparison and even give photos if anyone wants to see something side by side.

    Up front, I don't think any other phone comes close to the iPhone 3GS for iPod like functions or games but for PIM, organization, multitasking, synergy syncing options, notifications and using phone stuff I give it to the Pre.

    I am not saying I like the Pre overall better as I have not used it as much "yet" but the Pre comes with things after only being out a couple months that it took the iPhone years and years or still doesn't even have.

    The iPhone doesn't even really have a lot more apps in the long run as 2/3's are foreign, or stupid passing wind, peeing, stupid gun and other sound, 20 apps that do the same thing and so many other useless ones. The Pre could catch up easily in terms of sound "quality" apps IMO.
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    You misunderstand. That's not the implication of the 3GS at all.

    The 3GS is the device they had to have available when iPhone OS 3.0 rolled around.

    When iPhone version 1 launched, the speed was optimal out of the box. After all, it only had to do browsing, media playing and phone calls.

    When iPhone 3G launched and native apps arrived, optimizations were made in the code to keep the speed and responsiveness in the same area, but the more features they added, the more the older hardware was taxed. Come June of 2009, it would be two-year old hardware trying to support a vastly expanded OS and countless apps. Of course, it would run slower.

    Hence the 3GS. But having an array of iPhone-owning friends, I saw what each device ran like when it was released. The Pre is not even close.
    Well, you would say the speed was optimal, I might say they throttled back features because they didn't have things fleshed out. And given the fact that they're still operating with that antiquated interface I'd say they still don't.

    I guess it's all about your expectations for a device. All of the performance issues you mention are noted, just not deal-breakers in my book. If I leave cards open as I do, most don't interrupt my day. When I'm sitting here on my freakin' cell phone answering text messages and emails and browsing the web and receiving notifications on flight updates and listening to music and navigating all at once, moving from one task to another with simple finger swipes, (on any application, even those that I've side-loaded )the little bit of lag in opening an app or a picture fades away. Not that I don't want the lag fixed, it's just not making my head explode right now

    But I can totally understand why these isssue might be deal breakers to you, everybody is different.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Well said,
    In reference to your previous post , I was blown away by the multi touch browser on the original iPhone and that was about it.
    ...
    That was just about the way I felt, but I was pretty impressed with the accelerometer as well. Just not enough to make me jump. One of my primary concerns was corporate email (and no, EAS didn't take care of it for me, I was on a GroupWise system at the time); but there just wasn't enough there to convince me to give up my Treo.

    I agree with just about everything on the rest of your post. 100% about Palm, but I'm not so sure about RIM (I posted elsewhere about them as a company, no need to repeat it here...)
  10. #110  
    donm527, I largely agree. They had to get it out when they did.

    But that puts us back at the central mystery that I hope is unraveled one day:

    Why wasn't using the GPU and adding OpenGL support for developers considered at the earliest, most conceptual stages?
  11. #111  
    The iPhone app store is not going to dominate in volume... what happening is that if you look beyond the 'stupid passing wind and peeing' apps... what you are seeing that the quality of apps are getting there that ultimately they will on parity with PC apps and that anything that is available on PC will be available on mobile app and not watered down. That will be the goal for all platforms to get to.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkkeller View Post
    The iPhone doesn't even really have a lot more apps in the long run as 2/3's are foreign, or stupid passing wind, peeing, stupid gun and other sound, 20 apps that do the same thing and so many other useless ones. The Pre could catch up easily in terms of sound "quality" apps IMO.
  12. #112  
    Probably just werent ready for it. They were more concerned with WebOS. Only a guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    donm527, I largely agree. They had to get it out when they did.

    But that puts us back at the central mystery that I hope is unraveled one day:

    Why wasn't using the GPU and adding OpenGL support for developers considered at the earliest, most conceptual stages?
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    Well, you would say the speed was optimal, I might say they throttled back features because they didn't have things fleshed out. And given the fact that they're still operating with that antiquated interface I'd say they still don't.
    I would think it's a given that features are throttled back on devices. Sometimes, it's for strategic reasons. Sometimes, it's for performance reasons. Sometimes, it's for carrier reasons. Sometimes, the company just doesn't think it's important enough to support at that time.

    But I agree that the newest interfaces from HTC, Palm, and even the MotoBLUR thingy make Apple's "Go to home screen and tap THIS icon. Ok, go back and tap THIS icon." homescreen look old.

    I guess it's all about your expectations for a device. All of the performance issues you mention are noted, just not deal-breakers in my book. If I leave cards open as I do, most don't interrupt my day. When I'm sitting here on my freakin' cell phone answering text messages and emails and browsing the web and receiving notifications on flight updates and listening to music and navigating all at once, moving from one task to another with simple finger swipes, (on any application, even those that I've side-loaded )the little bit of lag in opening an app or a picture fades away. Not that I don't want the lag fixed, it's just not making my head explode right now.
    If I had that experience, I might agree. Mine is more like leaving cards open and watching them eat the memory voraciously so I start getting "Too Many Cards" messages with only 1-2 windows open (I get these messages regularly).

    And none of that really has anything to do with the execrable Photo or Phone apps. They remain slow and clunky regardless of how many or how few cards are open.

    I love doing many things at once too. But I don't want to do them all in a mediocre fashion.
  14. s219's Avatar
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    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    I would argue it's not a breakthrough of any type, it's just optimization of your current device. Sure, it took some effort, but who doesn't work on that?? It just amazes me how people trip over themselves to pat Apple on the back for every little BS thing they do. If Palm comes out with an update tomorrow that makes the Pre just as fast, you'll say that's the way it should've been all along, not that it's some great breakthrough.

    I actually want to like Apple, it's the sheep that blindly follow (not pointing at you directly) that make me nauseous.
    I don't like sheep on any platform, in fact I probably spend as much time tangling with Apple sheep as Palm sheep (and that's saying something). The problem with people blindly accepting products/technology is that they never demand better or know better. I see the exact same thing happening here; too many people will cheerlead and defend Palm and the Pre rather than accept legitimate issues and demand better.

    At a time in the mid 90s before Jobs came back, Apple sheep were blindly following the company as it drove into the ground. If it wasn't for Jobs and his dose of reality, I think Apple would be dead today. He built it back up in a way that it wasn't "dependent" on sheep but would attract plenty of customers with honest hard-won success, which the iPhone arguably did. It may be leading to another sheep herd nowadays, but it's happening because so many people really like the product.

    My standpoint as a developer, who hopped on the iPhone SDK in early 2008 and rode it from the get-go, with one of the first apps in the store, is that they have done an amazing job with the SDK. It empowers desktop-level software development for a mobile device. The games we can write with OpenGL and OpenAL rival some of the best games on the desktop, and exceed them when you throw in all the mobile features. It's not a sheep thing, it's realizing that someone finally came along and provided a dream team combination of hardware and software I could develop for and have the time of my life.

    The 3GS is the hardware piece that completes the puzzle. Previous iPhones were not engineered to support third party apps well, if at all. It's a struggle to get some of my games living within 20-30MB free memory available on the older devices, and doing it requires a careful dance to work with memory notifications and gracefully deallocate if one of the background apps demands it. Those limits are gone on the 3GS, and we have significantly better performance and graphics capabilities. The 3GS is the iPhone that finally realizes the full potential of the platform and it's third party developers in a world driven by apps.

    From that standpoint, I see the Pre, with hardware that's nearly as capable, being saddled by an OS that is not very well optimized and not as sophisticated as it could be. The Pre has iPhone 3GS level hardware but the OS is crippling it to a point that it's not even reaching iPhone OS 1.0 levels of capability and performance. And the SDK is too limited for developers to really do any great work.

    I don't want to give the impression that I don't appreciate the many good aspects of the webOS, because it has plenty. But on a basic hardware/software/performance/usability measure, we're getting Chevette level results from a Corvette level device. It's painful to watch. Meanwhile, there are plenty of sheep driving around in their Chevettes like it's the best thing ever and everything is fine and dandy, and meanwhile Palm is busy pushing the open/web stuff so we can have even better Chevettes. They should be trying to get the Corvette out of the barn instead, but can't. I think there may be a herd of sheep blocking the door.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    I don't follow. The argument is that what is new about the 3GS is speed (on the 3rd generation of the phone, after 3 years of working on the exact same OS), which would imply that previous versions didn't have it. Meaning they weren't optimal out of the box on day one.

    Yet, in Palm's case, four months is too long??

    If anything, Palm's mistake was pushing the envelope with limited resources.
    This is all about opinions, don't be throwing logic in the mix...
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    I don't want to give the impression that I don't appreciate the many good aspects of the webOS, because it has plenty. But on a basic hardware/software/performance/usability measure, we're getting Chevette level results from a Corvette level device. It's painful to watch. Meanwhile, there are plenty of sheep driving around in their Chevettes like it's the best thing ever and everything is fine and dandy, and meanwhile Palm is busy pushing the open/web stuff so we can have even better Chevettes. They should be trying to get the Corvette out of the barn instead, but can't. I think there may be a herd of sheep blocking the door.
    I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think the sheep here are trying to stifle progress or innovation, I just get tired of hearing 1000 different doomsday predictions per day and all of the experts who, no matter what Palm does, say that they should've done something else. Regardless of how you spin it, you're willing to give Apple time and the benefit of the doubt on most anything while not even acknowledging that Palm is working to improve the platform.

    And this Palm, not Apple. Apple has mindshare and mind control while Palm is a company that can be put out of business by a crappy reputation earned by some BS poll on a website. I don't agree that we're working with a Chevette, (or that any GM product should be the target), but the fact that you don't believe they're not working to make it better is just not reality.
  17. urkel's Avatar
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    #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    I don't like sheep on any platform, in fact I probably spend as much time tangling with Apple sheep as Palm sheep (and that's saying something). The problem with people blindly accepting products/technology is that they never demand better or know better. I see the exact same thing happening here; too many people will cheerlead and defend Palm and the Pre rather than accept legitimate issues and demand better.
    Agreed. Picking a side in a corporate battle between Google, MS, Apple or Palm is just silly because the only team we should be rooting for are The Consumers. We pay good money for our Pre, Macbook, Win7 or whatever so what's wrong with being "selfish" and putting about our expectations over the feelings of these corporations?

    Anyway, I find it obnoxious that anyone drawn to a popular product is labeled a "sheep". I'm sure some people choose a product because it's "popular", but most people choose that product because it's awesome. What's so bad about that?
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I would think it's a given that features are throttled back on devices. Sometimes, it's for strategic reasons. Sometimes, it's for performance reasons. Sometimes, it's for carrier reasons. Sometimes, the company just doesn't think it's important enough to support at that time.

    But I agree that the newest interfaces from HTC, Palm, and even the MotoBLUR thingy make Apple's "Go to home screen and tap THIS icon. Ok, go back and tap THIS icon." homescreen look old.



    If I had that experience, I might agree. Mine is more like leaving cards open and watching them eat the memory voraciously so I start getting "Too Many Cards" messages with only 1-2 windows open (I get these messages regularly).

    And none of that really has anything to do with the execrable Photo or Phone apps. They remain slow and clunky regardless of how many or how few cards are open.

    I love doing many things at once too. But I don't want to do them all in a mediocre fashion.
    I'm with you.

    I have to wonder if your issue is OS or tweaks to said OS. Being able to tweak things is both a blessing and a curse, and I've found that many of my wounds are self-inflicted.
    Last edited by GMoney749; 10/14/2009 at 08:16 PM.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    Anyway, I find it obnoxious that anyone drawn to a popular product is labeled a "sheep". I'm sure some people choose a product because it's "popular", but most people choose that product because it's awesome. What's so bad about that?
    Your post history here reveals that you find that reference obnoxious when it's applied to your love of Apple, but not when someone here, on the Palm forum, expresses a postitive opinion about Palm or one of its products.

    Your slip is showing.
  20. #120  
    I think what some are forgetting is not everyone wants the same things and not everyone is a power user and they can be satisfied with the way the Pre is now.

    When purchasing a device I research and buy on what it can do "now" not what I hope it can do "eventually". Thats why I kept my iPhone 3GS and Treo 750 and waited to purchase the Pre until recently. Now many bugs are already worked out, features added, things like Yahoo IM, Flash, on screen keyboard are available or soon will be, so now I bought it.

    I liked the Pre from day one but it would have made no sense for me to have bought it on release only to complain about what it cant do that I already knew it couldn't.

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