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  1. piaband's Avatar
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       #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by sacherjj View Post
    Stats support will be lagging behind the actual release of the App Catalog. The only way to see free app download counts is to load a copy of the older App Catalog App with a different id. Don't know right now how soon or what frequency sooner than monthly we will see stats for our paid apps.



    Sorry. We can't describe the whole front to end view, due to various NDAs.


    Really? Does anyone know why they wouldnt want to make this public knowledge? competitor issue?
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    And you believe this to be your most pressing concern with your Pre? You need to relax btw. Maybe you should download DrugView and look up something that can calm you down. Nevermind, you dont have any space.
    Good one. I never said it was my most pressing concern. I said that it's a concern for me, and many others, and that it's not up to you to decide what should or shouldn't be a concern, for me, or for anyone else. It's my phone, I paid for it, and I should be able to use the available memory however I wish.

    You need to stop being such an overbearing *****.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    Really? Does anyone know why they wouldnt want to make this public knowledge? competitor issue?
    You don't want download/purchase count public for the same reason why you don't give away the hit count of a commercial web site. It is valuable information for competitors to know.

    I like the fact that Palm doesn't list by download count. This eliminates the "make my app cheapest so it is always on top" syndrome. If people can't see download counts, they won't know what apps to "clone". In the Apple App Store, many high downloading apps just get cloned, rather than people thinking of something new to program.
    Your Pre wants Word Whirl from the App Catalog.

    It told me.
  4. piaband's Avatar
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       #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by dgmarcus View Post
    Good one. I never said it was my most pressing concern. I said that it's a concern for me, and many others, and that it's not up to you to decide what should or shouldn't be a concern, for me, or for anyone else. It's my phone, I paid for it, and I should be able to use the available memory however I wish.

    You need to stop being such an overbearing *****.
    Overbearing? I mean, this is my thread, noone asked you to join. If you bother to read, you will find that I agree that the app limit should be increased. My reason for posting is because I dont think its the most important issue at hand. I can think of a few other things I would rather see before this. Flash support, video recording, virtual keyboard (from Palm).

    And you can use your phone to do whatever you want. You can hack it and change the app space all you want if you are smart enough (judging from the way to react to a discussion, you are not intelligent enough). But Palm doesnt have to give you anything more than you have right now.
    Last edited by piaband; 10/07/2009 at 02:35 PM.
  5. piaband's Avatar
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       #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by sacherjj View Post
    You don't want download/purchase count public for the same reason why you don't give away the hit count of a commercial web site. It is valuable information for competitors to know.

    I like the fact that Palm doesn't list by download count. This eliminates the "make my app cheapest so it is always on top" syndrome. If people can't see download counts, they won't know what apps to "clone". In the Apple App Store, many high downloading apps just get cloned, rather than people thinking of something new to program.
    Ahhh, that makes a lot of sense. Isnt there any copyright to your apps?
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    Overbearing? I mean, this is my thread, noone asked you to join. If you bother to read, you will find that I agree that the app limit should be increased. My reason for posting is because I dont think its the most important issue at hand. I can think of a few other things I would rather see before this. Flash support, video recording, virtual keyboard (from Palm).
    It is hard to find two people that will have the same opinion of what is the most important thing to be fixed on the Pre.

    I also place the App limit higher on the list than others, because users are confused by it. They KNOW why the phone doesn't record video, there is no app. When they get a message that there is no space to install app, they are completely dumbfounded, because the computer tells them there is 6+ Gb free on their Pre.

    Confused users are very frustrated users, who bad mouth the Pre and kill sales.

    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    Ahhh, that makes a lot of sense. Isnt there any copyright to your apps?
    You can copyright code. You can't copyright games or functions. For example, I can release a Pac Man clone, as long as I don't use any registered Trademarks and the game look is different enough to not be confused with the original.
    Your Pre wants Word Whirl from the App Catalog.

    It told me.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by commonplace View Post
    On my Touch Pro, I have LOTS of apps that I very rarely use but they're there when I need them. I'm able to do this because Microsoft and HTC didn't arbitrarily set a limitation that they thought would be acceptable. I can install whatever I want, whenever I want, and use it as often or as little as I want.
    ...
    It's important to note that Palm "arbitrarily set a limitation that they thought would be acceptable" because they had to. Unlike your Treo or Touch Pro, the Pre's internal memory is used as FAT space (not "big huge fat", but "File Allocation Table FAT"), thus it had to be set aside as a different partition. Palm chose to give the FAT volume the bulk of the space (roughtly 6 1/2 gb). That may have been a mistake to give it that much; but please, don't make it sound as if they did it just to tweak people's noses...
  8. piaband's Avatar
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       #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by sacherjj View Post
    It is hard to find two people that will have the same opinion of what is the most important thing to be fixed on the Pre.

    I also place the App limit higher on the list than others, because users are confused by it. They KNOW why the phone doesn't record video, there is no app. When they get a message that there is no space to install app, they are completely dumbfounded, because the computer tells them there is 6+ Gb free on their Pre.

    Confused users are very frustrated users, who bad mouth the Pre and kill sales.



    You can copyright code. You can't copyright games or functions. For example, I can release a Pac Man clone, as long as I don't use any registered Trademarks and the game look is different enough to not be confused with the original.

    I can see that. But realistically, how many people do you think ran into the app limit and it was a serious problem for them. I am guessing not that many people. Almost certainly noone that doesnt download homebrew. This is by far the majority of Pre owners. My guess is, if you are downloading homebrews, you are aware of the app limitation by now and the reason behind it.
  9. #49  
    I would like to comment on the iphone/ipod touch apps.

    I have a 32 GB iPod Touch and only really use one app (but have about 20 installed), mainly because I have the Pre as well

    I am going to go ahead and say that most iphone/touch users are the same(have more apps than 'needed'), because when you think about it, how often are you going to need a package tracker, or a compass, or lemonade ty****. I feel like most people have apps on their phone for when they least expect it. Being bored, stuck at the airport, or when waiting for someone to meet you at a movie, for example.

    I also have friends/family who will use apps that I don't use as much, like when my 12 y/o nephew wants to play the paper toss game or something, lets be honest, no one is going to play it everyday.

    I think the best analogy is someone's music collection. I have about 6,000 songs on my iPod. Do I listen to all of them everyday? Every month? No. But when I think "Oh Hey!, I wanna hear this band", I can listen to it right away as opposed to going through the extra steps to get out my laptop, sync the band over, after deciding what else I want to delete (and remembering to put the deleted band back on if i delete another) It just gets messy to delete and sync, delete and sync. And really, how many people have more music on their personal media players than they listen to everyday? I'd say about 99% of people, unless you have a tiny library.
    Last edited by kbritt31; 10/07/2009 at 02:44 PM.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    ...
    Your last line might not be too far off. Palm did kind of stress that once you pay for an app you are able to delete and download as much as you need to. That really means there is no reason to worry about deleting a paid app to create more room, and in a week or two when you need it again download it once more, rinse-repeat with others.
    I think we're seeing each other, but not quite eye-to-eye. Here are my thoughts:
    • I think Palm never intended to keep the apps area at 256mb
    • I don't think this is a high priority for them yet, because it's "only" the HomeBrew community that's having problems
    • I think Palm underestimated how quickly the HomeBrew community would have a solution (multiple solutions) for those that don't want to install from a command line.
    • I think that last one is the heart of the current problem
    • I think the "need to fix this" has rushed up on Palm much quicker than they anticipated.

    Personally, I really thought they would fix this with 1.2. I was surprised that it didn't resize the volume. I'm anticipating it will soon.
    I will also say that it's not a problem for me, since I use the script that moves apps to the /media/internal area, but I still hope Palm fixes it soon.

    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...allation_Limit
  11. piaband's Avatar
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       #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by kbritt31 View Post
    I would like to comment on the iphone/ipod touch apps.

    I have a 32 GB iPod Touch and only really use one app, (mainly because I also have pre).

    I am going to go ahead and say that most iphone/touch users are the same(have more apps than 'needed'), because when you think about it, how often are you going to need a package tracker, or a compass, or lemonade ty****. I feel like most people have apps on their phone for when they least expect it. Being bored, stuck at the airport, or when waiting for someone to meet you at a movie, for example.

    I also have friends who will use apps that I don't use as much, like when my 12 y/o nephew wants to play the paper toss game or something, lets be honest, no one is going to play it everyday.

    I think the best analogy is someone's music collection. I have about 6,000 songs on my iPod. Do I listen to all of them everyday? Every month? No. But when I think "Oh Hey!, I wanna hear this band", I can listen to it right away as opposed to going through the extra steps to get out my laptop, sync the band over, after deciding what else I want to delete (and remembering to put the deleted band back on if i delete another) It just gets messy to delete and sync, delete and sync. And really, how many people have more music on their personal media players than they listen to everyday? I'd say about 99% of people, unless you have a tiny library.
    Again, this is a poor analogy. Syncing music to your device is much more time-consuming than adding an app over the air. I still have not heard a reason for the app limit being such a huge problem. You can have all those apps currently. The amount of apps that you would need to go over the limit is rather large. I also have more apps than I need. And I have not hit any limit yet. I have way more than I need. For like you said, the off-occasion that I might WANT to use it.

    Everyone is making it sound like the limit is 10 apps. The limit is rather large and it is not a problem for 99% of people. Where in the world do you find a problem that is fixed when it is just fine 99% of the time?
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    It's important to note that Palm "arbitrarily set a limitation that they thought would be acceptable" because they had to. Unlike your Treo or Touch Pro, the Pre's internal memory is used as FAT space (not "big huge fat", but "File Allocation Table FAT"), thus it had to be set aside as a different partition. Palm chose to give the FAT volume the bulk of the space (roughtly 6 1/2 gb). That may have been a mistake to give it that much; but please, don't make it sound as if they did it just to tweak people's noses...
    No offense (seriously), but please check the definition of arbitrary. I simply mean that Palm decided that X amount of space for apps would be enough. That was their choice. I know they didn't do it just to tick people (users and devs) off, but they still had a choice as to how much space to allocate to the apps and how much to allocate to regular storage, and they chose -- by at least some people's opinions -- incorrectly.

    I don't claim to have the solution. I'm not sure what Palm should do or should have done. But then again, I'm not the engineering team trying to design and sell a phone.

    I just feel that most people would expect a phone with 8GB of storage space to be able to hold more than 40-50 relatively small apps. Whether or not you (the general 'you', not you personally) think that it's necessary or even practical for people to need that many apps is not the point, imho.

    /Kevin

    P.S. Amusingly enough, I don't even own a Pre yet, but I will soon, despite the app limitation. I'm comfortable with the current workarounds until Palm hopefully fixes the limitation issue.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by sacherjj View Post
    ...
    I also place the App limit higher on the list than others, because users are confused by it. They KNOW why the phone doesn't record video, there is no app. When they get a message that there is no space to install app, they are completely dumbfounded, because the computer tells them there is 6+ Gb free on their Pre.

    Confused users are very frustrated users, who bad mouth the Pre and kill sales.
    ...
    Very good point, and particularly applicable in this case. There is a lot of confusion on this issue.
  14. piaband's Avatar
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       #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by commonplace View Post
    No offense (seriously), but please check the definition of arbitrary. I simply mean that Palm decided that X amount of space for apps would be enough. That was their choice. I know they didn't do it just to tick people (users and devs) off, but they still had a choice as to how much space to allocate to the apps and how much to allocate to regular storage, and they chose -- by at least some people's opinions -- incorrectly.

    I don't claim to have the solution. I'm not sure what Palm should do or should have done. But then again, I'm not the engineering team trying to design and sell a phone.

    I just feel that most people would expect a phone with 8GB of storage space to be able to hold more than 40-50 relatively small apps. Whether or not you (the general 'you', not you personally) think that it's necessary or even practical for people to need that many apps is not the point, imho.

    /Kevin

    P.S. Amusingly enough, I don't even own a Pre yet, but I will soon, despite the app limitation. I'm comfortable with the current workarounds until Palm hopefully fixes the limitation issue.
    You are assuming everyone wants 100 apps on their phone. Maybe most people would rather have that space as it is allocated now..for media. Becaseu they have no intention of downloading apps at the same pace as you.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    Again, this is a poor analogy. Syncing music to your device is much more time-consuming than adding an app over the air. I still have not heard a reason for the app limit being such a huge problem. You can have all those apps currently. The amount of apps that you would need to go over the limit is rather large. I also have more apps than I need. And I have not hit any limit yet. I have way more than I need. For like you said, the off-occasion that I might WANT to use it.

    Everyone is making it sound like the limit is 10 apps. The limit is rather large and it is not a problem for 99% of people. Where in the world do you find a problem that is fixed when it is just fine 99% of the time?
    Well I wasn't trying to argue, first of all, secondly I wasn't comparing the time needed for sync vs. downloading apps. I was just providing you with a probable reason people have more than they 'need', and the music thing came to mind. You also asked for an iPhone app perspective. People just like to have more stuff than they need, that's why we call it America. Go big or go home

    I'm not out of app space so I am not complaining, If people want to complain let them, it doesn't affect you, right? Telling people why they don't need something seems...I don't know, futile.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    You are assuming everyone wants 100 apps on their phone. Maybe most people would rather have that space as it is allocated now..for media. Becaseu they have no intention of downloading apps at the same pace as you.
    That's a very good point. If Palm increases the amount of space available for apps, that decreases the amount of space available for media and other things. Then that set of people will be angry, and rightfully so.

    Ideally, it would be dynamic, but that's not as easy as it sounds. I suppose they could have made the whole thing FAT, but FAT is a crap file system. Another option would be to make the device not have ANY FAT partitions on it at all, but then you'd have to have special software in order to transfer music, etc. onto the phone -- i.e. you wouldn't be able to use it like a portable flash drive.

    Like I said, I don't have the solution, just the complaint. I hope Palm is able to find a solution that satisfies everyone.

    /Kevin
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       #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by kbritt31 View Post
    Well I wasn't trying to argue, first of all, secondly I wasn't comparing the time needed for sync vs. downloading apps. I was just providing you with a probable reason people have more than they 'need', and the music thing came to mind. You also asked for an iPhone app perspective. People just like to have more stuff than they need, that's why we call it America. Go big or go home

    I'm not out of app space so I am not complaining, If people want to complain let them, it doesn't affect you, right? Telling people why they don't need something seems...I don't know, futile.
    I wasnt arguing with you either. It must be something about forums. Disagreeing=arguing? I'm not trying to tell anyone what they dont need. I am trying to say what I want is different from what they want.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by commonplace View Post
    No offense (seriously), but please check the definition of arbitrary. I simply mean that Palm decided that X amount of space for apps would be enough. That was their choice. I know they didn't do it just to tick people (users and devs) off, but they still had a choice as to how much space to allocate to the apps and how much to allocate to regular storage, and they chose -- by at least some people's opinions -- incorrectly.

    I don't claim to have the solution. I'm not sure what Palm should do or should have done. But then again, I'm not the engineering team trying to design and sell a phone.

    I just feel that most people would expect a phone with 8GB of storage space to be able to hold more than 40-50 relatively small apps. Whether or not you (the general 'you', not you personally) think that it's necessary or even practical for people to need that many apps is not the point, imho.

    /Kevin

    P.S. Amusingly enough, I don't even own a Pre yet, but I will soon, despite the app limitation. I'm comfortable with the current workarounds until Palm hopefully fixes the limitation issue.
    No offense taken, and I do understand the meaning of "arbitrary". I suspected (apparently wrongly), that you thought Palm just picked a number out of the air. I think they made a decision based on how they thought people would use the device. I also think they made the wrong decision, but I have nothing to back that up, other than personlal intuition.

    Look at it this way. If people are loading up their Pre's with songs, pictures, and videos, then Palm made the right decision to give more space to /media/internal than to the apps area. Heck, for all we know, that may be exactly what's happening, and why we're debating this on what is essentially a tech forum, instead of hearing about Pre owners returning to Sprint en-masse over the issue.

    Maybe, if/when Palm resizes to give 3gb of space to apps, and 3.5 to media. we're going to hear from the other side.

    What I'm hoping for is to soon have an alert that pops up on the Pre that says:

    You have exceeded your space limitation for Applications. You may, if you choose, allocate some of your media space for Applications, but that will reduce your media storage area. Please run the App Resize Utility if you choose to do this
    Last edited by hparsons; 10/07/2009 at 03:05 PM. Reason: Other SIDE, not SIZE
  19. piaband's Avatar
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       #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post

    You have exceeded your space limitation for Applications. You may, if you choose, allocate some of your media space for Applications, but that will reduce your media storage area. Please run the App Resize Utility if you choose to do this
    I would love to see that. Just after or concurrent with flash and video recording.
  20. #60  
    I think I'm going to tell my rich uncle that he doesn't need to make a half million a year, I live off of 50k, why can't he? He's not using all 500 grand. I'm also going to tell the next person I see driving a mercedes that they don't need it, they can get to work just fine in a kia....
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