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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    You're welcome to that view, but I don't agree with it at all.
    ?

    Well, I don't have any problem with it at all. Since it's XML with a DTD, you don't even have to look at it to read it, or know about order, or pairing. Any objections you might have come out in the wash. As long as a document conforms to the XML spec (and key/value pairs are an accepted subset of that) then it's fair game. I think you want to object to it, but there's no reason to.

    It could be a horrendous XML document with spelling errors, curse words, **** terminology, etc, but as long as the DTD matches the document format it will work. You don't have to like or approve of their approach for it to be a perfectly workable file. I'd venture to say that most XML files I have to work with are not structured the way I'd do it, but that's not a show stopper at all.
    I'm pointing out that it's just a serialized plist, it's not XML meant for sharing with 3rd parties. That's not a published API or a mechanism for interoperability even if it's readable and has a DTD. It's meant for sharing between Apple apps and Apple is at most tolerating others being able to read it while it's there. There is no difference between Palm and RIM promising their customers iTunes sync as it can be disabled or changed without any coordination from Apple.

    Short of deleting the file, as long as they continue using XML with a published DTD, it's supported as far as I am concerned. DTD'ed XML is self contained.
    You're confusing being able to read it and accessing an API. This whole debate started with you and others claiming that Palm shouldn't be using iTunes when Apple provides them the iTunes library file. I'm pointing to you that the file is there for Apple's use and is not an API that can be counted on. No one working with that file has any coordination with Apple.

    Well, we will have to agree to disagree here. You're spending way too much time on the API angle, when what we really have is a DTD supported XML file. The only way that is no longer useful to users is if the file and DTD are removed from circulation. To call it an API, and subject it to your own requirements for an API, is drastic overkill. DTD supported XML was created for just this reason -- it serves as it's own record.
    You're debating technical minutia that's irrelevant to the point. The iTunes library file is not something any commercial vendor can base a promise to its customers on. They can read it while it's there, and it can vanish or change, without coordination.

    But overall, I am not sure what your point is. Are you trying to tell me the XML approach is no good? Would you concur that Palm's current approach is fragile and ready to break at any minute because it's not documented / supported as an API? Say what you will, but at least the XML approach is public and has self-contained documentation. As far as I am concerned, that is already a huge improvement over Palm's current tack.
    XML can be used for many things, depending on context and need. In this case we have a Mac OS X property list file sitting around for Apple's use while others are able to read it. No commercial vendor can promise anything to its customers more than what Palm has because Apple did not publish an iTunes API here. Apple can yank the file whenever it wants to, change it to a binary database file, encrypt it or put it online for it's own use only and anyone reading it can have no expectation that Apple will give them advance warning or work with them to find substitutes.

    There is no difference between what Palm is promising its customers and what RIM or Nokia do. No one has any arrangement with Apple about using iTunes. It is merely tolerated.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
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    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by StormD View Post
    Palm doesn't "rely" on iTunes for anything. It "allows" you to natively sync your iTunes music library (and photos) to the Pre, but you can also sync those things by just mounting the phone as a usb drive and doing it by hand, or with a dozen other programs.

    All your programs and apps are automatically backed up on Palm's cloud servers. Same as your email and contacts.
    I would say advertising about being able to use itunes on their website is relying on itunes.
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    #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    You mean, like setting up your OS so you can run Windows on a Mac? Or Microsoft Office on a Mac? Something like that?
    What a bunch of hogwash. You know Microsoft actually develops Word for Mac and are actually cool with using Windows on a Mac because they actually want to sell more software. Apple has gone about things the legal way, something Palm could learn.
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    #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    You don't see the parallel to what Palm is doing? You can use iTunes without having to own the dominant player on the market. I've said it before, but the Pre will not be the last device to pretend to be an iPod. The door has been opened, and Apple's only response is to update iTunes. We expect frequent updates to this new platform, but Apple can only throw so many updates out there before they start inconveniencing users.
    Unlike Palm Apple has gone about it the legal way. Respectable companies won't be looking to use hacks to sell their products so I don't expect any floodgates to happen or you think it was only Palm that knew about this loophole?
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    #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    "Better" and whether or not it was a "good move" are not germane to the point being made.

    Apple is implementing and advertising compatability with software developed by Microsoft in order to sell their hardware. Substitute names in that sentence and see if you still think it's a "good move".
    Yes Apple is going on about it the legal way and not relying on hacks or stealing vendor IDs.
  6. #146  
    Jumping in after only reading the first post but... what's sad is that Palm doesn't even need to build their own app - they could just bundle MissingSync or offer a discount for it or something. Why use a kludge when there's an actual robust solution?
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    Unlike Palm Apple has gone about it the legal way. Respectable companies won't be looking to use hacks to sell their products so I don't expect any floodgates to happen or you think it was only Palm that knew about this loophole?
    Legal? Is it your claim that Palm is doing something illegal? Better be careful what you say, some things could considered libel.

    I'm curious, you seem to be acting as if you're very knowledgable all of this. Can you quote the law, federal, state, even local, that they are breaking?
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    I would say advertising about being able to use itunes on their website is relying on itunes.
    You might "say" that, but your sayso don't makeitso. As was stated, it's one of the options available.
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    Yes Apple is going on about it the legal way and not relying on hacks or stealing vendor IDs.
    Legal? Please provide the statute that that supports your premise that what Palm is doing is not.

    Yeah, that's what I thought.
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    What a bunch of hogwash. You know Microsoft actually develops Word for Mac and are actually cool with using Windows on a Mac because they actually want to sell more software. Apple has gone about things the legal way, something Palm could learn.
    Did you actually read any of the thread to understand the conversation, or are you just jumping in to defend The Collective at all costs? Because that is so not the point.
  11. #151  
    lol @ the dude who says palm is at fault but then publicly admits he pays 10 cents per song thru alltunes (which is ILLEGAL)!
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    #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Legal? Is it your claim that Palm is doing something illegal? Better be careful what you say, some things could considered libel.

    I'm curious, you seem to be acting as if you're very knowledgable all of this. Can you quote the law, federal, state, even local, that they are breaking?
    Well getting slapped by the USB group for stealing vendor ids shows their actions weren't illegal. You can choose to interpret it how you want in your Palm fan boy fantasy world.
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    #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    Legal? Please provide the statute that that supports your premise that what Palm is doing is not.

    Yeah, that's what I thought.
    One getting slapped by the USB group for stealing vendor ids. I guess that is ok by your right.
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    #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    Did you actually read any of the thread to understand the conversation, or are you just jumping in to defend The Collective at all costs? Because that is so not the point.
    I actually did, why don't you expalin what you wrote and how it disputes what I said.
  15. #155  
    Try to converse without resorting to name calling, such as fan boy and troll.
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    Well getting slapped by the USB group for stealing vendor ids shows their actions weren't illegal. You can choose to interpret it how you want in your Palm fan boy fantasy world.
    Do you know what "legal" means? It's frowned-upon if I fart in an elevator, but it's not illegal. The USB group and Apple are frowning upon Palm's approach here, but it's obviously not illegal because Apple hasn't taken any legal action. Palm wouldn't be doing this if they felt they were doing something illegal -- contrary to your belief that only Apple can afford lawyers, I'm sure Palm had theirs go over this idea with a fine-toothed comb before they announced iTunes compatibility.

    I'm still not sure why you care about this so much -- you don't even own a Pre, and you're not Steve Jobs.
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    #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    Do you know what "legal" means? It's frowned-upon if I fart in an elevator, but it's not illegal. The USB group and Apple are frowning upon Palm's approach here, but it's obviously not illegal because Apple hasn't taken any legal action. Palm wouldn't be doing this if they felt they were doing something illegal -- contrary to your belief that only Apple can afford lawyers, I'm sure Palm had theirs go over this idea with a fine-toothed comb before they announced iTunes compatibility.

    I'm still not sure why you care about this so much -- you don't even own a Pre, and you're not Steve Jobs.
    I suggest you go and look into the meaning of what "legal" and "illegal" means. Palm used someone's else's vendor ids, which goes against the rules set by the USB group which is why they were slapped. Illegal means something is prohibited or not authorized by law or generally rules specific to a particular situation. They went against rules set by the USB group to become hackers, rules they agreed to when they joined the group. I'll leave you to interpret whether its illegal or not.
  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    Well getting slapped by the USB group for stealing vendor ids shows their actions weren't illegal. You can choose to interpret it how you want in your Palm fan boy fantasy world.
    I think you meant "weren't legal", not "weren't illegal". However, the USB group doesn't create laws, thus violating their rules, which they still haven't confirmed in this case, isn't doing something illegal.

    I might also mention, that calling folks "fan boys" on this forum is also "against the rules", and also not violating any laws. But hey, if it's the best you got, I understand...
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    Do you know what "legal" means? It's frowned-upon if I fart in an elevator, but it's not illegal. The USB group and Apple are frowning upon Palm's approach here, but it's obviously not illegal because Apple hasn't taken any legal action. Palm wouldn't be doing this if they felt they were doing something illegal -- contrary to your belief that only Apple can afford lawyers, I'm sure Palm had theirs go over this idea with a fine-toothed comb before they announced iTunes compatibility.

    I'm still not sure why you care about this so much -- you don't even own a Pre, and you're not Steve Jobs.
    Since when is farting in an elevator frowned upon??

    (Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I just felt the quality of the posting needed to be raised a little - we'll get back to the "legal/illegal/fanperson stuff now)"
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by GMoney749 View Post
    "Better" and whether or not it was a "good move" are not germane to the point being made.

    Apple is implementing and advertising compatability with software developed by Microsoft in order to sell their hardware. Substitute names in that sentence and see if you still think it's a "good move".
    Yes, I believe apple, advertising compatibility with MS in terms of dual booting windows and office was a good move - I don't think apple would have the market share they have today if they hadn't done that, less so the windows piece, DEFINITELY the Office piece.

    I DO think it is important for palm to be able to connect with iTunes, but the technically better way, is by reading that XML file, the same way everyone else does it.

    Your original comment was likening apple to script kiddies - apples solution was technically sound, palms is a hack. Violating technical standards is a bad idea, the less standards are followed, the less you can rely on them, and the harder they are to work with.
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