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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by scuba_steve View Post
    My two cents:
    It's not laziness. It has to do with unfair competition, which happens when someone starts to get a monopoly...and then uses that position to crush competition and stifle innovation.

    Apple sells 57% of all of the world's online digital music purchases through iTunes...and 25% of all music sold in the US. That's the point - they are a *huge* entity in music sales, bordering on nearing a monopoly...and the way that they sell the music is through one piece of software - iTunes. Thus, iTunes is *primarily* the front end of the store that sells most of the music sold today. It is *not* primarily a device synch program....but they do use it as such for *their* devices only and then go out of their way to block others from doing what they can to allow their devices to synch with it as well to level the playing field and lower the bar for consumers to the same point that it is for iPods.

    (okay, perhaps that was four cents )
    Oh Boy you need a clue.

    First It's not a monopoly if you can get the same songs elsewhere at the same or lesser price (remember that for 3 or 4 months Amazon had cheaper DRM-FREE songs, Walmart had everything at 89 cents)

    Second regardless how you manage to get iTunes on to your machine it is a piece of software that is owned by Apple. Apple can even choose to EOL any of the previous iPod models and not provided sync past a certain version. It happens throughout the entire Consumer Electronic industry. It even happens within the same company! Why can't I get my PlaysForSure music that I purchased years ago on a Zune? Or get Zune songs on my iRiver.

    You mention stifling innovation. How exactly is Apple doing this? In fact, Palm should get busy and innovate to get a real Media Sync going. There is a lot that the iTunes software doesn't do where Palm can develop. And then a small bullet point should be the ability to import iTunes libraries just like all the rest.

    In the end, I will stick with MediaMonkey for my aging Blackberry and will hold out for v2 of a Pre (not the pixi!). Also a few apps that I can't leave my BB until it is available for the Pre or Android.
  2. #82  
    Wow, from thoughtful discourse to lunacy in a single page...

    Okay, ANY MP3 player, music player, video player is basically a USB mass storage unit, with a player attached. Theres nothing special about them.

    If I can plug ANY usb drive into my computer and put files on it... why can't any 'sync' program do the same? IE: put files onto a goddamn drive?

    Apple closed off their program to only their products by requiring that the USB device be of apple origin to accept these files. There is no reason for this, except to hinder other devices.

    Fine, its an Apple product, so they can do as they please. I could care less, companies make money and pay us fine folk that work for them.

    Palm definitely stands to benefit by offering users the ability to use iTunes. They're not 'hacking' or being lazy. What they are doing is attempting to set precedent. A USB device is nothing but. I would hate to have a specific brand of thumb drive just to get it to work with windows. Same goes for a player/sync software.

    I still am surprised that ANY consumer would be in Apple's favor here. What we're getting is a company that is trying to open up the market and increase competition to reduce prices. I mean, I can buy an 8gb MP3 player for $40, but an Ianything costs half a paycheck! ***??

    Sure an API exists, but common sense would tell me (this is an assumption) that there are licensing fees associated with its use. Common sense also tells me that using this API would not be as simple as plug-n-play, that there would be additional file or app installs required to get things working for the end user. Neither of this is all that nice.

    Apple had their day in the sun, got the prioprietary application and use of their soft/hardware and now its time to stop the anti-competitive behavior, and update standards so that any device that is capable of utilizing a resource, is allowed to do so. Afterall, isnt that what we as consumers WANT?

    Apple may have every reason to be ****ed, but their reaction only hurts us consumers.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dayvidpriddy View Post
    I'll cry for YOU personally! Seriously, do you think people read everything there is to know about something before they go out and buy it? A lot of things are figured out after you make a purchase and start playing with it...I'm so sure you knew EVERYTHING that your phone could or couldn't do before you bought it? Uh huh, sure, a right! NOT!

    My complaints are mostly about the build qualitiy of the phone and the hardware (all valid complaints and I'm not the only one complaining!) Assuming that a smartphone has it's own proprietary software is not unheard of, actually most people already assume this. Ever had a blackberry, iPhone etc? They all have their own software to use with the phones! It's more of a suggestion then anything else, there are just a lot of obvious flaws here that should have already been sorted out and fixed, A Palm fan boy are we? Palm can do no wrong huh? God I thought I had avoided them when I left Apple... Money talks and without us "complainers AKA people who buy their products and expect them to work without huge problems" Palm would be out of business!

    I'll send you some tears via UPSP...it's so amazing to me how people will spend their money and then not voice their complaints when they feel that certain things are broken and should be fixed. Instead they just accept it, sorry but I voice my opinion in hopes of things being heard and finally getting fixed.

    Again, I know your precious Palm can do no wrong but I assure you they can and HAVE! Now who is crying?
    Oh dude, didn't you know that it's near heresy to say anything bad or negative or gasp (!!!) even your own personal negative opinion about the Pre on these here fora. Yes, how dare you have an opinion on a product that you use and find fault with....it must be that you didn't do your research properly, not that there isn't something actually wrong with the product.

    /sacarsm

    @Dayvidpriddy..
    I actually concur with you about Palm not developing its own app or even utilizing the iTunes API system. They are only hurting themselves from a customer perspective.
    .....Life is But Such Sweet Sorrow.....
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    I mean they can't even bother to find a solution to sync pictures for Pres so they have to rely on Apple.
    This one is probably the best one yet -- any camera that gets plugged into a Mac automatically brings up iPhoto. Even Windows XP offers to manage photos on a device when you plug one in. Now you're reaching.
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    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by jrstinkfish View Post
    This one is probably the best one yet -- any camera that gets plugged into a Mac automatically brings up iPhoto. Even Windows XP offers to manage photos on a device when you plug one in. Now you're reaching.
    Aren't they using itunes to sync photos?
  6. strudel's Avatar
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    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain_ReCall View Post
    Personally, I don't really care if Pre works with iTunes. What does annoy me is Apple going out of thier way to break syncing with the Pre. We're not asking Apple to support the Pre, but breaking stuff just to break stuff is the worst thing I think they can do. This, and other recent decisions from Apple, is why I'm actively looking for an iPod alternative.
    I am in complete agreement here, I don't care about iTunes. It is by far the most painfully slow application by a huge margin and won't use it unless if I have to. When I spend good money on a device, I want to be able to use it how I want instead of being chained to a crappy piece of software. Yes my iPod touch has 85,000+ applications available for it but I rarely use it because the interface is stale and iTunes sucks.

    Sorry, I got a little carried away there... Apple is only hurting themselves and looking like a big bully in the process. I hope Palm doesn't give up until they have to, the fight is kind of entertaining.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    Aren't they using itunes to sync photos?
    Huh? When I plug my Pre into my Macbook and choose to use it as a USB drive, iPhoto automatically loads and offers to pull the photos from the device into my Macbook, like it does when I plug in my camera. At no point does iTunes automatically load.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    Aren't they using itunes to sync photos?
    I don't have iTunes on my computer, and I'm still able to somehow get photos back and forth.

    Do you have a Pre?

    Where are you getting your information?

    Have you actually checked out any of the stuff your talking about?
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    1) "Apple will gladly take your money if you don't own an iPod. But they won't let you sync with your non-Apple MP3 player?" - Wrong. There is a publicly available sync API that allows non-Apple devices access iTunes libraries AND playlists. Palm, for whatever reason, just refuses to put in the modest effort to create a plug-in for this. Blackberry users can freely sync with iTunes. All official and like.
    here's the rub... every company and every chunk of hardware having to have it's own software is just assinine. i have an ipod, a windows mobile phone, a pre, and a lg chocolate in my house that all have music loaded on it. itunes is sold as an integral part of the mac os x experience. why, oh why, should i need to have a different piece of software for each piece of hardware? sure, apple has the 'right' to limit what their software syncs to, but it's customer unfriendly.

    and fwiw, media sync isn't a plugin for itunes- it's an entirely separate application which uses an apple api to query the itunes library.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    What we know is that Palm has very little resources, so I think his first guess is closest to the truth. The rest is just conjecture and hysteria.
    developing a syncing application is trivial; my guess is that palm is doing this for several reasons:
    1- marketing
    2- on principal- you shouldn't need a separate app w/ every device. it should work with the primary media applications included w/ the major os's.
    3- as a forget you to apple- you gotta remember a lot of major players on the palm team came from apple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adjei View Post
    Oh it allows it but Palm chooses to hack into a competitor's product and advertise that feature on their main website. Why shouldn't Apple go out of their way to break hacks by petty leeeches, I'm sure if somebody hacked into your savings account, you would gladly oblige for them to do so.
    palm doesn't hack a competitor's product. they include a hack in their own product. :P
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by phreakish View Post
    Okay, ANY MP3 player, music player, video player is basically a USB mass storage unit, with a player attached. Theres nothing special about them.

    If I can plug ANY usb drive into my computer and put files on it... why can't any 'sync' program do the same? IE: put files onto a goddamn drive?
    Because iTunes isn't an agreed upon standard like USB, but instead a proprietary software license rightfully controlled by the people who created it: Apple?

    Apple closed off their program to only their products by requiring that the USB device be of apple origin to accept these files. There is no reason for this, except to hinder other devices.

    Fine, its an Apple product, so they can do as they please. I could care less, companies make money and pay us fine folk that work for them.

    Palm definitely stands to benefit by offering users the ability to use iTunes. They're not 'hacking' or being lazy. What they are doing is attempting to set precedent. A USB device is nothing but. I would hate to have a specific brand of thumb drive just to get it to work with windows. Same goes for a player/sync software.
    The only precedent Palm is attempting to set is a major corporation actually pushing its users toward a sync solution that they cannot control and know will be broken at will. It's embarrassing at how bush league that is. You think Palm is trying to push some sort of openness? PLEASE. They're riding Apple's coattails because they can't or won't put in the effort to crafting a plugin like Blackberry did so Blackberry users don't have to worry about this nonsense. You don't need an iPod to sync with iTunes. You just need a company that takes the time to use the existing sync functionality Apple provides for any third party to use. Shame Palm can't stand with RiM on that front.

    Meanwhile, this idea of yours that every sync software should support EVERY device is just absurd.

    I still am surprised that ANY consumer would be in Apple's favor here. What we're getting is a company that is trying to open up the market and increase competition to reduce prices. I mean, I can buy an 8gb MP3 player for $40, but an Ianything costs half a paycheck! ***??
    Palm is trying to reduce prices? Yeah, ok. The price of the Pre to keep it moving during the holiday season, maybe.

    Apple has plenty, and I mean, PLENTY of competition. They are steamrolling them precisely BECAUSE they offer seamless, easy solutions that people don't have to worry about being broken because Apple controls software, hardware, and distribution. And this idea that they're price gouging is a joke! Before Apple dropped the iPhone 3G to $199, the price point for high-end smartphones was $300 and up AFTER REBATE. Now, because of Apple, companies can't come in much above $199, or it's a wrap. It took Sprint less than a month to slash the price of the Touch Pro 2 to $199 from $349. In an iPhone-less world, it wouldn't have happened. You think the Pre would've launched at $199 without Apple downward pricing pressure?

    Sure an API exists, but common sense would tell me (this is an assumption) that there are licensing fees associated with its use. Common sense also tells me that using this API would not be as simple as plug-n-play, that there would be additional file or app installs required to get things working for the end user. Neither of this is all that nice.
    And again, it should NOT be. Why should Apple make it easy for competition to leech off the success of iTunes? Their success is due to creating a complete ecosystem for their products. If you don't like that, buy ANOTHER PRODUCT. There's competition for every single product they offer from hardware to software.

    Apple had their day in the sun, got the prioprietary application and use of their soft/hardware and now its time to stop the anti-competitive behavior, and update standards so that any device that is capable of utilizing a resource, is allowed to do so. Afterall, isnt that what we as consumers WANT?

    Apple may have every reason to be ****ed, but their reaction only hurts us consumers.
    This is stupid. Using iTunes in any way you want with any device you want is not a RIGHT.

    If you don't like the way Apple issues their products, just use another brand's products. That's called consumer choice. Nothing anti-competitive about.

    Differentiating your product with unique features is the very definition OF competition.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmgnj View Post
    First It's not a monopoly if you can get the same songs elsewhere at the same or lesser price (remember that for 3 or 4 months Amazon had cheaper DRM-FREE songs, Walmart had everything at 89 cents)
    not even close to being true.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmgnj View Post
    Oh Boy you need a clue.

    First It's not a monopoly if you can get the same songs elsewhere at the same or lesser price (remember that for 3 or 4 months Amazon had cheaper DRM-FREE songs, Walmart had everything at 89 cents)

    Second regardless how you manage to get iTunes on to your machine it is a piece of software that is owned by Apple. Apple can even choose to EOL any of the previous iPod models and not provided sync past a certain version. It happens throughout the entire Consumer Electronic industry. It even happens within the same company! Why can't I get my PlaysForSure music that I purchased years ago on a Zune? Or get Zune songs on my iRiver.

    You mention stifling innovation. How exactly is Apple doing this? In fact, Palm should get busy and innovate to get a real Media Sync going. There is a lot that the iTunes software doesn't do where Palm can develop. And then a small bullet point should be the ability to import iTunes libraries just like all the rest.

    In the end, I will stick with MediaMonkey for my aging Blackberry and will hold out for v2 of a Pre (not the pixi!). Also a few apps that I can't leave my BB until it is available for the Pre or Android.


    I'll respond with a level of civility that you frankly don't deserve.

    One not need to have 100% of a market to create monopolistic effects...and others, apparently, also lacking a clue, agree:

    Antitrust: Apple accused of bullying Microsoft - Apple 2.0 - Fortune Brainstorm Tech


    My point was this - folks here are viewing iTunes as software whose primary purpose is to synch media files on a desktop computer with devices...and I respectfully disagree....as do others.

    iTunes is also the *only* means to purchase digital content from the iTunes store (including music and video). If I am wrong, please correct me. Given the percent of market share Apple has in this arena, controlling the storefront is fairly significant.

    There are any number of means to synch that content to devices, but iTunes is the only game in town to purchase the content from that store. Thus, everyone who chooses to purchase from that store (and that is a large group of folks given its dominance) must use that software. THEREFORE, the fact that the software also is the synch software for just one manufacturer's family of devices (i.e., Apple's iPods & iPhones) gives that manufacturer an undue advantage.

    That is not to say that there are not other means to synch that content with other types of devices. Instead, it implies that they have a significant advantage given that the storefront is tightly integrated with device synching for just one device family. iPod-specific DRM is just another can of worms entirely.

    Courts around the world have shown repeatedly that forcing consumers to jump through several extra technical hoops to solve such an issue is not an adequate response...which is why MS is creating a "browser selection" UI for Windows in the EU...even though EU citizens have always been allowed to download other browsers. The courts, however, deemed pre-installation of IE and forcing folks to go find Firefox (et al.) gave MS an undue advantage.

    There are countless other examples where courts have stepped in to enforce a logical division between a single company's product's and/or services that were giving them an undue advantage...enforcing unrelated party conditions.

    Of course, I am writing this mostly for others since I don't think logic, civility, and a friendly exchange of ideas is high on your priority list...so flame away.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
    here's the rub... every company and every chunk of hardware having to have it's own software is just assinine. i have an ipod, a windows mobile phone, a pre, and a lg chocolate in my house that all have music loaded on it. itunes is sold as an integral part of the mac os x experience. why, oh why, should i need to have a different piece of software for each piece of hardware? sure, apple has the 'right' to limit what their software syncs to, but it's customer unfriendly.
    This is the funniest part of all.

    There already is a universal standard that allows you to plug any device to any of these machines and get media on and off of it. It's called USB. If you have a computer with USB ports and a device with them...you are set!

    But you do not have the "right" to able to sync Windows Media playlists, iTunes playlists, and whatever across any device with any software.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by scuba_steve View Post
    My point was this - folks here are viewing iTunes as software whose primary purpose is to synch media files on a desktop computer with devices...and I respectfully disagree....as do others.

    iTunes is also the *only* means to purchase digital content from the iTunes store (including music and video). If I am wrong, please correct me. Given the percent of market share Apple has in this arena, controlling the storefront is fairly significant.

    There are any number of means to synch that content to devices, but iTunes is the only game in town to purchase the content from that store. Thus, everyone who chooses to purchase from that store (and that is a large group of folks given its dominance) must use that software. THEREFORE, the fact that the software also is the synch software for just one manufacturer's family of devices (i.e., Apple's iPods & iPhones) gives that manufacturer an undue advantage.
    Nothing undue about it. Copyright holders of content have the right to decide when and how that content is distributed which is PRECISELY what they do if they give Apple an iTunes exclusive.

    This is no different than the Eagles selling albums only at Wal-Mart or Radiohead offering In Rainbows exclusively online long before you could get it in physical form. The distributor pays for that content exclusive PRECISELY because it gives them an advantage.

    That is not to say that there are not other means to synch that content with other types of devices. Instead, it implies that they have a significant advantage given that the storefront is tightly integrated with device synching for just one device family. iPod-specific DRM is just another can of worms entirely.

    Courts around the world have shown repeatedly that forcing consumers to jump through several extra technical hoops to solve such an issue is not an adequate response...which is why MS is creating a "browser selection" UI for Windows in the EU...even though EU citizens have always been allowed to download other browsers. The courts, however, deemed pre-installation of IE and forcing folks to go find Firefox (et al.) gave MS an undue advantage.
    The people making customers "jump through extra hoops" are Palm, not Apple. Apple provided a means to sync with iTunes. Palm chose not to accept it while RiM did.

    Again, ANY company can get their device to sync with iTunes appropriately and ethically. Palm is not doing that.
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    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I don't have iTunes on my computer, and I'm still able to somehow get photos back and forth.

    Do you have a Pre?

    Where are you getting your information?

    Have you actually checked out any of the stuff your talking about?


    He's right -- with 1.2.1, Palm now syncs photos through iTunes (using the capability Apple put into iTunes, intended to sync photos to iPods and iPhones). One of the front page articles here on PreCentral mentions it as well.

    This is an addition to whatever other photo sync methods were/are available for the Pre by treating it as a generic USB mass storage device.

    I have to admit, this has me thrown for a loop. Think about it -- Palm uses the iTunes app to sync music against Apple's wishes, even though there was an open XML API they could have used to do it (same approach Blackberry Media Sync uses to interface with iTunes). Now Palm is using iTunes to sync photos to the Pre, even though they don't need to at all (generic USB storage device capability was working just fine). What is the goal here? To gradually use iTunes for everything, just like an iPod or iPhone? This is the first time I am starting to think there is possibly a chip on Palm's shoulder and they're just trying to mess with Apple. I didn't think that when music sync was the only issue.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    This is the funniest part of all.

    There already is a universal standard that allows you to plug any device to any of these machines and get media on and off of it. It's called USB. If you have a computer with USB ports and a device with them...you are set!
    no, you're actually not. for example, you can't do it with a f'in ipod (nor a zune). not every device that connects w/ usb has a mass storage mode, and not every device with a mass storage mode gives access to the media partition w/out a hack.

    But you do not have the "right" to able to sync Windows Media playlists, iTunes playlists, and whatever across any device with any software.
    didn't say you did- i actually said the exact opposite, that apple has the right to deny access to whoever and whatever they want. i just pointed out that it's customer unfriendly to deny access with the media software that you promote as part of your os experience (with or w/out a ipod).
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by egretman View Post
    Apparently not. So far. At least.
    your statement makes no sense.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
    your statement makes no sense.

    The sync is back. Ipso Facto.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by PoundSand View Post
    no, you're actually not. for example, you can't do it with a f'in ipod (nor a zune). not every device that connects w/ usb has a mass storage mode, and not every device with a mass storage mode gives access to the media partition w/out a hack.
    The standard is there. If a manufacturer makes a device that doesn't adhere to it and that bothers you, don't buy it.

    didn't say you did- i actually said the exact opposite, that apple has the right to deny access to whoever and whatever they want. i just pointed out that it's customer unfriendly to deny access with the media software that you promote as part of your os experience (with or w/out a ipod).
    As long as that open sync functionality that Blackberry uses is available to any company that wishes to use it, you can't say Apple is "denying access".
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