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  1. gbp
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    There is absolutely no truth to that -- the music is organized into folders and files with plain-English names:

    Home > Music > iTunes > Artist > Album > Song_name.mp3 (or m4a, or whatever)

    There is no obfuscation at all. I really have no idea where that myth comes from.
    Have you checked the folder on your iPod ?
  2. gbp
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhody View Post
    I don't think you understand what it is you purchased when you downloaded a song from iTunes. You did not buy a song. After all, what is a song?

    A song is a creative work comprising rhythms, chords, melodies, etc. And a particular instance of a song is a recorded performance of the song. Back before they even had phonographic records or magnetic tapes, song composers sold their creative works as sheet music (they still do) that people would purchase so they can play it on their pianos at home and sing along. A song is intellectual property, not a file.

    A record, tape, CD, MP3 file, guitar tab, sheet music, MIDI file, or the like is merely the embodiment of the creative work. When you purchase a CD, for example, you are purchasing the medium itself and a license to play the content from that medium. When you purchase an MP3, you are only buying a license to perform certain actions with that instance of that creative work in that format. You do not OWN the song. I'm sure when you sign up for iTunes, you agree to certain terms that define each purchase. I bet those terms restrict you from doing whatever you want with "your media."

    I see this all the time in forums like this. People say, "I have the right to do whatever I want with my music." Well, no, you don't. You don't own music; you own a license to perform certain actions with respect to a specific instance of a given creative work.
    Thanks for the explanation.

    I do not own the song , what I own is my right to listen to the CREATIVE WORK" using my choice of media.

    Song is intellectual property of the artist, agreed, and whether its a paper or magnetic tape or mp3 , I am paying iTunes so that it can provide me the medium for listening to the creative work of the artist .

    So I paid iTunes, and I get to listen to the "CREATIVE WORK".

    As long as I should not distribute the medium , I get to listen in the device of my choice.
  3. Xyg
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    There is absolutely no truth to that -- the music is organized into folders and files with plain-English names:

    Home > Music > iTunes > Artist > Album > Song_name.mp3 (or m4a, or whatever)

    There is no obfuscation at all. I really have no idea where that myth comes from.
    Really?

  4. gbp
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    Just like you mention that RIMM's software only works with their phones and you can't use it on anything but their phones --- well, Apple *intends* their iTunes app to only work with their iPods and iPhones, and they don't want it working on anything but their devices.
    Sire, you are genius, you figured this out .
    And you are confused too.

    iTunes media player syncing software is different from the iTunes market place which sells the songs.

    They have been selling billions of songs. I do not have the numbers now.
    It san be safely said that about 120 million folks use the iTunes making it the numero uno media player and a media store.

    I am not arguing about PALM's stupid hack thing here, all I am saying is the size of the APPLE media business reached a proportion that it draws the anti trust attraction. And as a company if you want to play nice.

    Back to reality , based on a SWAG , I can tell that about half the Pre owners will be ****ed with PALM which puts the blame on APPLE for the lack of Sync and for missing the ability to buy songs from the iTunes store.


    EOM.
  5. s219's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Have you checked the folder on your iPod ?
    That's a whole different story -- they use a compact file/directory structure with a binary catalog format on the device (for speed/performance). It's not meant to be browsable. However, the binary catalog contains all the human readable aspects of the files and folders, and if you transfer the music off the device with iTunes, this will convert it back to the simple format I described in the post above (which is on the host computer).

    This gets into the meat of the specific iPod/iTunes integration that is only meant for Apple devices. So I have no sympathy if someone sees it on their iPod-masquerading Pre and gets confused.
  6. s219's Avatar
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    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyg View Post
    Really?

    Exactly what I explained above.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    As long as I should not distribute the medium , I get to listen in the device of my choice.
    ...And you can. What, besides auto-syncing, do you want to do with your iTunes purchased music that you are being hindered from doing?

    Syncing is the hardware providers responsibility, always has been. When I bought a Zire 71 back in the day, it was not Apple's responsibility to make it work on the Mac, it was Palm's. They had to provide the software for compatibility. The syncing portion of iTunes is a hardware specific solution for Apple devices. It is no different from Palm desktop as a solution for Palm devices. It is a multi-platform solution for iDevice syncing. For that feature, you will have to buy an iDevice. I do not recall being able to sync other non-Palm PDA's with Palm desktop. Why should iTunes be any different.

    So I ask again, what exactly are you being prohibited from doing with your music?
  8. nullity's Avatar
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    You need to explain to me how iTunes locks down the mp3 files. If they are DRM-free, then you can grab the files and do anything you want with it.
    I didn't say that Apple locked down the MP3 files; I said they lock down iTunes. For evidence, look no further than the Pre. I also never asserted that they force anyone to use iTunes. Microsoft didn't force users to use IE, either, but it came with their computer and a lot of users to this day are still unaware that IE is not the only browser. iTunes as a music storefront and media organizer has reached a similar level of popularity and public ignorance to alternatives. Disallowing other devices from syncing is clearly aimed at further solidifying the position of their hardware devices without regard for the new customers they could gain or the wishes of their current customers.

    Also, thank you for clarifying the obfuscation issue. Now that I know the files are organized and human readable on the PC, I'm a bit less upset with Apple and a bit more appalled that more people can't figure out drag & drop. Such a simple process yet all the hubbub about iTunes sync. Sheesh.

    Edit: One more observation... even the monolithic Microsoft allows WMP to sync with non-Zune devices.
    Last edited by nullity; 09/30/2009 at 03:06 PM. Reason: added MS bit at the end.
    "Maturity is a bitter disappointment for which no remedy exists, unless laughter can be said to remedy anything."
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  9. fid
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by gbp View Post
    Have you checked the folder on your iPod ?
    You are correct. On the iPod they are obfuscated with other names.

    But as s219's stated - Your music hasn't been touched on your PC.


    ** BTW, part of the 'ofusation' is (rockbox issues aside) for indexed performance which lends itself to the user experience on Apple products.

    Ever use a device that has external storage, i.e. Treo, Win-Mo, Blackberry, etc?

    Access time is tough through the interface alone, but then add filesystem traversal to it and all of the sudden you are choking on accessing your data. Apple preps or 'pre-cooks' almost all data sent over to their devices, relying on meta-data for access - photos, music, etc. This translates to speed of access when showing photo's, lists, etc.

    Could 'Real-Player' have done this with a Treo, sure - but what if the user pulls the memory card and replaces it with another. Also, you would need to repeat this for all of your applications. This is one (but certainly not the only) reason why apple doesn't support expansion options with their devices.
    Last edited by fid; 09/30/2009 at 03:14 PM.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by nullity View Post
    One more observation... even the monolithic Microsoft allows WMP to sync with non-Zune devices.
    How many players can sync to the Zune software, the only place you can access Zune Pass subscription music?
  11. #51  
    Phones: Sprint Blackberry Bold 9650, Sprint Blackberry Tour 9630, Nextel Blackberry 8350i Curve (Everything Plus Family Data 1600)



    "When I die bury me deep, put two speakers at my feet, a pair of ear phones on my head, and always play The Grateful Dead."
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    #52  
    I've decided that what I really want is a wireless sync server from Palm or anyone willing to offer it. USB cables are the past, the Touchstone, WiFi, and the Cloud are the present.

    Imagine a server program that sits on your HTPC, Desktop, or laptop. The server parses your iTunes XML file, indexes your mp3 files, or whatever and lets you create playlists for the Pre.

    The server does a push notification out to the Pre, wherever it is located, and starts pushing changes out to your phone via ssh or some other secure method. As a user, you could specify that the changes only occur on WiFi, only occur while the Pre is charging, only occur while 3G connectivity is available, or allow changes at any time.

    The sync could be differential, include Pre backups, or whatever. Palm would be my hero.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jawbox View Post
    I've decided that what I really want is a wireless sync server from Palm or anyone willing to offer it. USB cables are the past, the Touchstone, WiFi, and the Cloud are the present.

    Imagine a server program that sits on your HTPC, Desktop, or laptop. The server parses your iTunes XML file, indexes your mp3 files, or whatever and lets you create playlists for the Pre.

    The server does a push notification out to the Pre, wherever it is located, and starts pushing changes out to your phone via ssh or some other secure method. As a user, you could specify that the changes only occur on WiFi, only occur while the Pre is charging, only occur while 3G connectivity is available, or allow changes at any time.

    The sync could be differential, include Pre backups, or whatever. Palm would be my hero.
    That sounds fantastic! Do you think Palm would mind if Apple found a trick that enabled iPhones to use it as well?
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Apple has every right to block palm. You can't tell me palm wouldn't have done the same to protect its own interests. Please.

    Good for apple. If palm is to succeed, let them do it on THEIR OWN merits, not by riding apple's or anyone else's coat tails.
    I would be more inclined to agree with you if Apple did not have a decades old pattern of being so tight with their technology that they hurt themselves.

    In the Mac vs Windows wars of the 80s, Mac OS was a FAR superior product. But because they refused to play with the other kids (allow other hardware to use the OS via a licensing fee), Windows is what most people have on the computers!
  15. nullity's Avatar
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    How many players can sync to the Zune software, the only place you can access Zune Pass subscription music?
    I was not aware of that. MS should face another antitrust hearing, too, then.
    "Maturity is a bitter disappointment for which no remedy exists, unless laughter can be said to remedy anything."
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  16. nullity's Avatar
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    That sounds fantastic! Do you think Palm would mind if Apple found a trick that enabled iPhones to use it as well?
    I think Palm would be stoked if they could monetize it. Who wouldn't want an additional X-million users buying content from them? (cough-apple&ms-cough)
    "Maturity is a bitter disappointment for which no remedy exists, unless laughter can be said to remedy anything."
    ~ Kurt Vonnegut
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by nullity View Post
    I think Palm would be stoked if they could monetize it. Who wouldn't want an additional X-million users buying content from them? (cough-apple&ms-cough)
    How much money did Palm offer Apple per unit sold as a license fee for iTunes sync? Was there an agreement that we are not aware of? I guess Palm forgot that little step.
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    #58  
    And just how much money did you offer Al Gore to post each of your 4 posts (all anti-palm, for the record) using his internet? Lol... you raise a good point, but I still dispute that any licensing fee should be necessary. Apple built iTunes to function as a storefront, media organizer, and file transfer application. They earn money from media purchases, not file tranfers. They expended no resources to let Palm in, but have invested a lot to keep Palm out... Why? Because it is easier to thrive when there is no competition. Does MS get a kickback each time iTunes is installed on Windows? If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
  19. #59  
    You are right that I am little more than a troll in this case. I'm a nice troll, though. You are wrong about the nature of iTunes. Apple did not produce iTunes to be an all purpose, general use media organizer and storefront. That is how people see it because of its extreme popularity, but that is not what it is. iTunes is proprietary software for the family of iDevices, period.

    The first iPod was not compatible with Windows. There was no iTunes for Windows. Apple was not interested in making media organization software or a media storefront for Windows. They grudgingly ported it to Windows when they decided to sell the iPod to Windows users. They could have just hacked into WMP because that is what the vast majority of people were using to manage their media. They didn't. They took their little proprietary software and ported it to the PC and provided their own, at the time, pathetic solution.

    When the iPod went viral, iTunes became the dominant media organization software on the PC, but only because the iPod was the dominant player on the PC platform. Only, recently has iTunes become the number one music retailer in the world. Again, that is tied to the iPod's dominance. iTunes is not, nor has it ever been a stand-alone, general use application on any platform. It is as proprietary as Palm Desktop, only better and more desirable to the masses. I reiterate, iTunes is not general Apple software; it is iPod, and now, iPhone software.

    One more point. Even the music was tied to the iPod originally. You were never intended to be able to listen to what you bought from the iTunes store on any other device. Apple never wanted that. It was never a general purpose music store. It is not successful because people buy the music to listen to it on generic devices. It is successful because people buy iPods. Just because the music is no longer locked to the iPod does not mean the store has to work with any device other than the iPod. It doesn't. It belongs to Apple 100%. No regulatory body in the world can change that.
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    #60  
    Just don't update your iTunes, is it really so hard? The new version doesn't offer much in the way of features unless you're an iPhone/iPod Touch owner. Even then it's a stretch, who really cares about app genius and app management via itunes?
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