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  1. urkel's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdawgmon View Post
    Sorry, you'd lose that bet... I've done neither, but I will say that by being "too old school" means I also like the physical keyboard.

    So I wonder, of those that oppose the addition of hardware navigation, how many would also like to see the physical KB go away.
    That's a good point. A lot of people are expressing how much they hate buttons yet the most distinctive feature of the hardware is the physical keyboard that is universally preferred over a virtual keyboard. It's a very mixed message.
  2. mastercko's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Spyre View Post
    I wish they would make the button a roller like on a blackberry...so when you mistype something you can just scroll back to it or perhaps make it so it can be pushed in the 4 directions so you can change the one letter without having to tap on the screen 37 times to get the cursor in the right place or just delete everything back to the point of the error. Such a pain!

    As for the back gestures, I think they are ok but combined with the option above would give a better experience.
    You can actually move the cursor around properly without having to peck around (notably annoying, I agree), but it's not exactly clear without reading the manual.

    step one: hold orange button with one thumb
    step two: on any part of the normal part of the screen (not the gesture area), slide the other thumb as you would move a text cursor on a normal keyboard (left, right, up, down).
    step three: note that the cursor is moving around correspondingly
    step four: thank me for explaining Pre cursor usage to you. 8^)

    BTW, you can do the same thing but with shift to select text.

    Regarding the original post, I actually was slightly more annoyed with the back gesture when I first started and the novelty "wore on" so to speak. It's second nature to me now (I ghost gesture when using friends' iPhones) and I really appreciate the cleanliness having fewer buttons brings the device (I actually would also rather have no home button at all, Pixi-style)
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    That's a good point. A lot of people are expressing how much they hate buttons yet the most distinctive feature of the hardware is the physical keyboard that is universally preferred over a virtual keyboard. It's a very mixed message.
    Not really, I don't feel the need to use keyboard shortcuts, so my keyboard usage is limited to typing. Gestures make up for the rest of it.
  4. mastercko's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdawgmon View Post
    Sorry, you'd lose that bet... I've done neither, but I will say that by being "too old school" means I also like the physical keyboard.

    So I wonder, of those that oppose the addition of hardware navigation, how many would also like to see the physical KB go away.

    I prefer the speed, accuracy and tactile feel of the KB, which was a deciding factor in choosing Pre over other touch screen phones. Which is also why I feel like a couple simple navigation buttons would be nice. If at some future date, gestures/touch screen technology can meet those preferences then I'm all for no buttons.
    Hmm, that is a good point, though I don't see it as inherently contradictory to like the KB and at the same time want no buttons on the face of the closed device. The short version of my thinking is that the KB is very purpose- and content-driven (type things out reliably). Go back, Go home, etc are more UI/UX interactions and can be much more easily virtualized away from physical keys.
    Last edited by mastercko; 09/23/2009 at 02:39 PM.
  5. urkel's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian893 View Post
    Not really, I don't feel the need to use keyboard shortcuts, so my keyboard usage is limited to typing. Gestures make up for the rest of it.
    Maybe I don't know how to use my phone because you sound like you're using it for a lot. What gestures am I missing?

    Back: Swipe Left Side
    Forward: Swipe Right Side
    Switch App: Swipe across entire gesture area
  6. lupos's Avatar
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    #26  
    I LOVE the back gesture. Using my GF's iTouch drives me mad. Whoever said the thing about "2 handed gestures" is nuts. I can actually reach the gesture area when holding it with one hand. That tiny little back button in the upper left corner on the iTouch is a pain. It's one of the main things that makes the iPhone actually feel old to me.
  7. sookibong's Avatar
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    #27  
    Gestures were a selling feature for me. Once you learn them, they just make navigation more intuitive. I first realized this when using a gesture extension for Firefox. I've seen been able to eliminate all the navigation buttons for a much cleaner experience.
  8. #28  
    Gestures FTW, Trackballs and Hardware buttons FTL.
  9. urkel's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by VickMackey View Post
    Gestures FTW, Trackballs and Hardware buttons FTL.
    ...except when you want to control volume, sleep, vibrate, power, card view, cut/paste or do any manual text input. And lets not forget the button on the headset for pause/skip/answer/hangup.

    The Pre has 39buttons and 1 switch which is probably more than most phones on the market so whats with everyone acting like gestures indicates that we've evolved beyond buttons? Apparently Pre owners LOVE buttons.

    Anyway, I'm still missing it. What gestures are there other than back/forward/nextapp?
  10. mastercko's Avatar
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    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    ...except when you want to control volume, sleep, vibrate, power, card view, cut/paste or do any manual text input. And lets not forget the button on the headset for pause/skip/answer/hangup.

    The Pre has 39buttons and 1 switch which is probably more than most phones on the market so whats with everyone acting like gestures indicates that we've evolved beyond buttons? Apparently Pre owners LOVE buttons.

    Anyway, I'm still missing it. What gestures are there other than back/forward/nextapp?
    I just said it like a little bit back, but keyboard entry is materially a different activity than anything else, so you lumping those keys in with the UI buttons seems disingenuous to me. Your count should be that on the remote there is one button and on the phone there are 4 UI and nav related buttons, 1 switch and 1 keyboard. You keep implying that just because people like having a keyboard for text entry that they are contractually required to want to have separate UI interaction buttons all over the phone. They're not.

    Most UI interactions are easily virtualized into gestures. The ones that Palm chose are honestly the logical ones, IMHO. Since silencing your phone, changing the volume and turning the phone on and off are so basically necessary to be able to do with a physical button, the buttons for them are essentially required on any phone. Everything else is a judgment call, and they wanted to minimize the number of buttons to keep a sleek look, so they optimized in that direction. In fact you could say that they didn't optimize enough for their goals in the case of the Pre, since they went even further and removed the home button entirely for the Pixi.

    How it's received is entirely up to users' personal preferences (which mostly seems to be in favor of the gestures -- at least based on this thread). You don't like it and neither do the OP and a few other people, and that's fine, but you're not going to argue anyone into switching positions.
    Last edited by mastercko; 09/23/2009 at 03:52 PM.
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by mastercko View Post
    Hmm, that is a good point, though I don't see it as inherently contradictory to like the KB and at the same time want no buttons on the face of the closed device. The short version of my thinking is that the KB is very purpose- and content-driven (type things out reliably). Go back, Go home, etc are more UI/UX interactions and can be much more easily virtualized away from physical keys.
    Actually, I would not suggest adding buttons to the face of the Pre. I would suggest adding a back button on the side and maybe even a scroll wheel. I believe the Sony Clie (palm device) had both and made for quick & easy navigation. Scroll wheel worked well on long pages and eBooks.

    The scroll wheel could replace the up & down volume buttons. Maybe even make the wheel its self clickable like on a mouse and that could serve as a back button.
  12. mastercko's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    ...except when you want to control volume, sleep, vibrate, power, card view, cut/paste or do any manual text input. And lets not forget the button on the headset for pause/skip/answer/hangup.

    The Pre has 39buttons and 1 switch which is probably more than most phones on the market so whats with everyone acting like gestures indicates that we've evolved beyond buttons? Apparently Pre owners LOVE buttons.

    Anyway, I'm still missing it. What gestures are there other than back/forward/nextapp?
    Oh, and you missed go home/bring up launcher (flick up from gesture area) and quick shortcuts (slide up more slowly from gesture area)
  13. mastercko's Avatar
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdawgmon View Post
    Actually, I would not suggest adding buttons to the face of the Pre. I would suggest adding a back button on the side and maybe even a scroll wheel. I believe the Sony Clie (palm device) had both and made for quick & easy navigation. Scroll wheel worked well on long pages and eBooks.

    The scroll wheel could replace the up & down volume buttons. Maybe even make the wheel its self clickable like on a mouse and that could serve as a back button.
    Hmm, that wouldn't have been a bad addition TBH. I had two Clies (both the long one -- forgot the name -- and the UX fatter one) and loved that button/wheel. Still, I don't think that the Pre is really harmed by its exclusion. They were obviously going for a specific aesthetic and prioritized having a button like that out of the equation.
  14. urkel's Avatar
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by mastercko View Post
    I just said it like a little bit back, but keyboard entry is materially a different activity than anything else, so you lumping those keys in with the UI buttons seems disingenuous to me. Your count should be that there are 4 UI and nav related buttons, 1 switch and 1 keyboard.
    Cut - Nipple + X
    Nipple + V
    Cursor Movement - Orange + Drag
    Highlight - Shift + Drag
    Reboot - Orange + Symbol + R

    Look, I'm not arguing because I get your perspective. I just don't agree with it. Keyboard keys are buttons. The X is used to type the letter and to Cut. The F is used as a letter and as the number 5. The The ORNG button is used to modify letters but it is also used to highlight and reboot. So it's not disingenuous to call it like it is when your daily usage probably has you hitting the space bar 100x more than using the gesture pad.


    Quote Originally Posted by mastercko View Post
    You keep implying that just because people like having a keyboard for text entry that they are contractually required to want to have UI interaction buttons all over the phone. They're not.
    No, they're not required to use the buttons. And that is exactly my point. All this "touch screen" stuff is an elegant way to navigate around your phone, but when it comes down to pure function then you learn the keyboard shortcuts.

    Reboot:
    Swipe -> Slide (x2) -> Device Info -> Reset Optins -> Restart
    vs
    ORNG + SYM + R

    Copy/Paste:
    Menu -> Edit -> Copy
    vs
    Nipple + X

    They hide the keyboard because it's ugly, BUT the keyboard (and all its useful buttons) exist because physical buttons do make things easier. And in the end there's no style points in efficiency.


    (Paraphrased: Gestures are nice but buttons are more useful)
  15. urkel's Avatar
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdawgmon View Post
    Actually, I would not suggest adding buttons to the face of the Pre. I would suggest adding a back button on the side and maybe even a scroll wheel. I believe the Sony Clie (palm device) had both and made for quick & easy navigation. Scroll wheel worked well on long pages and eBooks.
    I noticed this when the iPhone started getting popular. Phones are now a 2-handed device. They're more delicate so we're more drop cautious. The screens got bigger making it more difficult to grasp it without inadvertently hitting the edges of the screen. Pinching and zooming works best with a stationary thumb on your other hand. Pictures require 2 hands for stability. Full keyboard texting can't be done like back on a T9. And scrolling through long pages usually has you "hamster wheeling" over the screen.

    Now that you mention the Clie then I do remember how convenient that side wheel was and how easy it was to eat a burger while using the classic iPod scroll wheel (and jogging on a treadmill). Going touchscreen has some major advantages but the more complicated these things get then the more hands it seems we need to use it.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by LupeValenz View Post
    I don't mind. I am soooo used to the gestures already and don't even use that center button.
  17. mastercko's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    Cut - Nipple + X
    Nipple + V
    Cursor Movement - Orange + Drag
    Highlight - Shift + Drag
    Reboot - Orange + Symbol + R

    Look, I'm not arguing because I get your perspective. I just don't agree with it. Keyboard keys are buttons. The X is used to type the letter and to Cut. The F is used as a letter and as the number 5. The The ORNG button is used to modify letters but it is also used to highlight and reboot. So it's not disingenuous to call it like it is when your daily usage probably has you hitting the space bar 100x more than using the gesture pad.



    No, they're not required to use the buttons. And that is exactly my point. All this "touch screen" stuff is an elegant way to navigate around your phone, but when it comes down to pure function then you learn the keyboard shortcuts.

    Reboot:
    Swipe -> Slide (x2) -> Device Info -> Reset Optins -> Restart
    vs
    ORNG + SYM + R

    Copy/Paste:
    Menu -> Edit -> Copy
    vs
    Nipple + X

    They hide the keyboard because it's ugly, BUT the keyboard (and all its useful buttons) exist because physical buttons do make things easier. And in the end there's no style points in efficiency.


    (Paraphrased: Gestures are nice but buttons are more useful)
    OK, fair enough, I see your point and you're basically right (I use keyboard shortcuts on my PC and on the Pre, such as they are, all the time -- though I totally forgot about the restart one since I do it so infrequently). I guess I still don't think that the Back UI navigations would be significantly enhanced by adding buttons to accomplish the task. I've got maybe 95% accuracy doing the gesture and now appreciate and much rather prefer there be one less button.

    Like I said before, I really wish that the home button was also gone, Pixi-style -- it's harder than it needs to be to switch apps since there's a button right in the middle of your gesture area and the button's main functionality is already duplicated on the Pre (flick up from gesture area) and the full functionality can be easily simulated (tap the gesture area), as on the Pixi.
    Last edited by mastercko; 09/23/2009 at 07:25 PM.
  18. #38  
    Gestures are great inventions!
  19. slash x's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Urkel View Post
    That's a good point. A lot of people are expressing how much they hate buttons yet the most distinctive feature of the hardware is the physical keyboard that is universally preferred over a virtual keyboard. It's a very mixed message.
    tou-che
  20. Xyg
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    #40  
    Urkel: Unless you have abnormally small hands, single handed use with the Pre is damned easy. Even pinching and zooming.

    I'm typing this reply one handed
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