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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Yeah, the number of cards open hasn't really changed that I've noticed. I almost always have Messaging, Email, Calendar, Twee, Memos, Tasks, and then Music (even when not playing music) and Sprint Navigation (even when not GPS / navigation) open.
    Ok cool.
  2. gage006's Avatar
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    #22  
    Am I the only one who's never encountered a Too Many Cards error?
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by gage006 View Post
    Am I the only one who's never encountered a Too Many Cards error?
    I've never gotten it either. I usually only have messaging, e-mail, and quickcontacts going though. I usually close out the web app, unless I'm following a football game or something. Even then, I've never gotten the error. Knock on wood.... The most cards I've ever had open for any appreciable amount is probably somewhere around 7 or 8- I tend not to like clutter and that's what too many cards feels like to me.
  4. #24  
    The fact remains, that where multi-taking is concerned, Android, symbian, Winmo, and Iphone Os cannot even begin to compare to the WebOS. Does it have issues? sure, but don't they all?
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    Yeah, the number of cards open hasn't really changed that I've noticed. I almost always have Messaging, Email, Calendar, Twee, Memos, Tasks, and then Music (even when not playing music) and Sprint Navigation (even when not GPS / navigation) open.
    The web browser is conspicuously absent from that list. What's your take on the web browser leak?
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    The web browser is conspicuously absent from that list. What's your take on the web browser leak?
    Yeah, I usually close the browser when I'm done with it. I'm not sure if there's a definite leak, but if I load a complicated site it definitely seems to improve to close the browser when I'm done, and it fits my needs best anyway.
  7. s219's Avatar
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by VickMackey View Post
    The fact remains, that where multi-taking is concerned, Android, symbian, Winmo, and Iphone Os cannot even begin to compare to the WebOS. Does it have issues? sure, but don't they all?
    FWIW, as part of my development work, I pay special attention to memory and cpu usage when testing new apps. To be honest, I think the iPhone OS does better running its 5-6 core apps (including safari with 5+ web pages open) alongside the dev apps I have been testing. Doing the same thing on the Pre, I often see the "too many cards" warning or the device just plain goes comatose. I honestly think the webOS memory management is a bit more fragile. I don't have experience with the other OSes you mention.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    FWIW, as part of my development work, I pay special attention to memory and cpu usage when testing new apps. To be honest, I think the iPhone OS does better running its 5-6 core apps (including safari with 5+ web pages open) alongside the dev apps I have been testing. Doing the same thing on the Pre, I often see the "too many cards" warning or the device just plain goes comatose. I honestly think the webOS memory management is a bit more fragile. I don't have experience with the other OSes you mention.
    That's kind of weird, isn't it? I mean, Linux does a pretty good job of memory management as far as I can tell. But it seems to me that since webOS apps are not really running in Linux, webOS really appears as essentially one application to Linux, which means webOS is not really making use of the good Linux memory management.

    The flip side is that there's room for improvement, and we can expect Palm to improve in this area.
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Sigh. Soooo missing the point of this discussion.
    No not exactly, it is on-point. You are questioning mulitasking's usefulness/effectiveness. I responded that after using an iPod touch (a phone OS that's currently next best to webOS, but does not multitask) it was frustrating. The shortcomings of the Pre's "multitasking" outweigh what's available from the competition.

    It's impossible to not "turn this into another cross-platform chat-bnound thread" as you requested, then yourself compare two different phones with different phone OS's.
  10. s219's Avatar
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    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbg7474 View Post
    That's kind of weird, isn't it? I mean, Linux does a pretty good job of memory management as far as I can tell. But it seems to me that since webOS apps are not really running in Linux, webOS really appears as essentially one application to Linux, which means webOS is not really making use of the good Linux memory management.

    The flip side is that there's room for improvement, and we can expect Palm to improve in this area.
    I think that's the case -- Linux itself is great at that, but there is an awful lot of molasses in the works where the system manages webOS apps and processes. I suspect it will be even more noticeable when cpu- and memory-intensive third party apps come along.
  11. s219's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by MilenkoD View Post
    No not exactly, it is on-point. You are questioning mulitasking's usefulness/effectiveness. I responded that after using an iPod touch (a phone OS that's currently next best to webOS, but does not multitask) it was frustrating. The shortcomings of the Pre's "multitasking" outweigh what's available from the competition.
    Well, don't forget that the Touch multitasks 5-7 core apps in the background (along with dozens of processes), in addition to whatever app you want to run in the foreground. It just doesn't have the nice visual "card" metaphor of the webOS, and it won't let more than one third-party app join the multitask party. Historically, Apple has always said they chose this "governed multitasking" approach in order to maintain a favorable user experience and keep a handle on performance and battery life.

    Palm instead places the burden on the user to manage open "cards". This is a fine approach for people who know what that means, but I know less-aware users see the "too many cards" warning, or notice the device getting sluggish, and probably get frustrated.

    One thing I learned long ago is that it's a better idea to back off a bit and keep users away from the ragged edge of performance even if that means artificial limits. You don't want customers to see that white underbelly of your software if you can help it. I think Palm could do better in this area.
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by MilenkoD View Post
    No not exactly, it is on-point. You are questioning mulitasking's usefulness/effectiveness. I responded that after using an iPod touch (a phone OS that's currently next best to webOS, but does not multitask) it was frustrating. The shortcomings of the Pre's "multitasking" outweigh what's available from the competition.

    It's impossible to not "turn this into another cross-platform chat-bnound thread" as you requested, then yourself compare two different phones with different phone OS's.
    It's not on-point at all. It's not even accurate. As S219 already pointed out, iPhone already multitasks its core apps, and iPhone multitasking of ANY app is not harder to enable than, say, WebOS virtual keyboards.

    Beyond that, simply saying "Well, I think it's still ahead of the competition, so the shortcomings of Palm's current implementation don't bother me" is pointless. I didn't ask if you liked it or not. I wanted to discuss what other people's experiences were in detail in order get a sample size to compare my experience against.
  13. #33  
    I am a winmo convert with webos as my first palm and I have noticed that cpu usage is a very very difficult hurdle to tackle. As far as I can tell the new pocket pc devices are trying to deal with this issue by beefing up the hardware rather than improving os cpu management. I am not familiar with webos yet, but I do know that most programmers creating software for winmo constantly struggle with memory usage and memory leaks.

    I know that as a former winmo user I am accustomed to soft resetting my device at least once a day in order to stem the constant memory leak issues.
  14. philbw's Avatar
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    #34  
    Alright so I'm still learning the Pre but here are some points that should be made I think:
    - WebOS is just that, a hopped up web browser that runs web pages (aka cards or apps).
    - I've never encountered a web browser on any platform that was "good" with memory. Keep a bunch of tabs open all day and look at your mem usage.
    - Because WebOS is basically a browser, apps must loop using javascript routines to "run in the background". This works, sure, but isn't by any means native threading found on a lot of other devices.

    Now, don't think I'm a WebOS hater by anymeans, I'm currently a GarnetOS developer and WebOS looks far better to deal with. I think it'll just take time to adapt these desktop-native web technologies to a mobile device.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    Well, don't forget that the Touch multitasks 5-7 core apps in the background (along with dozens of processes), in addition to whatever app you want to run in the foreground. It just doesn't have the nice visual "card" metaphor of the webOS, and it won't let more than one third-party app join the multitask party. Historically, Apple has always said they chose this "governed multitasking" approach in order to maintain a favorable user experience and keep a handle on performance and battery life.

    Palm instead places the burden on the user to manage open "cards". This is a fine approach for people who know what that means, but I know less-aware users see the "too many cards" warning, or notice the device getting sluggish, and probably get frustrated.

    One thing I learned long ago is that it's a better idea to back off a bit and keep users away from the ragged edge of performance even if that means artificial limits. You don't want customers to see that white underbelly of your software if you can help it. I think Palm could do better in this area.
    I agree that Palm should work to eliminate memory errors, but saying it's an "approach" to place this "burden" on their users is a bit disingenuous. It's a design that obviously needs some tweaking, but a direction they should be heading, IMO. Luckily for Apple they've got mindshare and marketshare and a ton of apps, because the competition is leapfrogging them in OS innovation. Their creative folks have been out somewhere drinking beer for the last three years. Or working at Palm. Ever notice that the only thing they advertise on the iPhone now are the apps? You know, novel software written by somebody else.

    On-topic, I normally leave mail, messaging, calendar and the Homebrew Photodialer app open at all times, only close them before bed at night. I think I've only seen the cards error 7 or 8 times since June, and most of those were concentrated over a couple of days. Not quite sure what caused it.
  16. kertong's Avatar
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    #36  
    i wish the pre would compile javascript into a machine specific binary, and cache/store that until a change in the code is made. interpreted javascript is far too slow, and I'm afraid the wonderful CPU/hardware of the pre is being wasted.
  17. shotyme's Avatar
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    #37  
    If you run an app ( i.e. Twee, calender, etc) there is usually no hogging in the memory. The Web browser is a different story. Once you open the web browser, it hogs the RAM, preventing you from opening cards. That cause of the cookies stored and history info. At least that is my personal experience. I typically don't get the "too many cards open" message unless I have the web browser open. Try it without the browser and see if there is a difference
  18. #38  
    The only time I've seen the too many cards error was when I intentionally opened as many cards as possible to see how many I could, made it to like 21 iirc.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    It's not on-point at all. It's not even accurate. As S219 already pointed out, iPhone already multitasks its core apps,
    I understand, but in the context of your original post (what would be webOS 3rd party apps), none of the application you mention are "core" apps.
    and iPhone multitasking of ANY app is not harder to enable than, say, WebOS virtual keyboards.
    Ok, iPhone *could* multitask if it wanted to, but it doesn't do ANY apps, just a few.
    Beyond that, simply saying "Well, I think it's still ahead of the competition,
    No, I didn't say that exactly, verbatim.
    so the shortcomings of Palm's current implementation don't bother me" is pointless. I didn't ask if you liked it or not
    Yes, I said that. You asked: I'd love to hear it from you guys.
    So I stated my opinion and comments.
    I wanted to discuss what other people's experiences were in detail in order get a sample size to compare my experience against.
    I think what you're experiencing seems to be similar to what others are experiencing too. I've been managing to circumvent allot of the performance woes simply because I swap-out batteries at the end of my day. That obviously restarts the device which clears any memory leaks. So I don't experience much of what you are saying just by physical necessity.

    Slightly Off Topic Editorial...so you don't get "mad":
    Could Palm have done a better job at this?...absolutely, always room for improvement! Considering the resources Palm has, they made a honest effort to create something different and succeeded. They also had to release what they had on-hand when they did or they would loose even more ground to Apple, RIM, Android, WinMo.
    Also consider this, the platform in only 4 months old. It needs time and engineering resources to refine these hiccups. Can they be completely resolved?...who knows? I think they can, but it'll be a "seemingly" slow process considering the size/financial constraints of Palm.
  20. cgk
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by iowabatman View Post
    I am a winmo convert with webos as my first palm and I have noticed that cpu usage is a very very difficult hurdle to tackle. As far as I can tell the new pocket pc devices are trying to deal with this issue by beefing up the hardware rather than improving os cpu management.
    Half and half I think, from what I read over at XDA developers 6.5 handles memory management in a different way, I'm not a techie, so how it is different I don't know.
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