Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 247
  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    That's not my definition, but I'm able to do that. Sorry you're having problems, I have no issue with your need to use a different device. Why do you seem to have an issue with my lack of that need?
    I don't want to use a different device, and I don't have a problem with you not wanting a different device either. You're imagining this.

    But back to the question: how do you use the Pre in a satisfactory manner in a business setting?

    Some mostly use desktop calendars with the Pre only being a secondary view, and as such, it's adequate. But then, why even use the Pre in the first place? The point is having a mobile calendar so I'm not tied to my computer.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  2. #102  
    What I can't quite figure out is why people are complaining about homebrew being needed to fix problems with the Pre. So what? If it's there.. use it. I could care less if Palm made the fix or if homebrew made the fix.. so long as someone fixes it. I use the pre for my appointments being a family intervention worker and it works for me just fine. I find that my 'slowness of using it' is generally my ineptness at using it properly to begin with. I still close my apps all the time, even though my battery lasts easily 13-19 hours a day.. if I just kept them open and swiped from app to app I wouldn't have to wait for the lag of an app opening. I agree that the scroll wheel for putting in times is cumbersome, but not to the point of being useless.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I don't want to use a different device, and I don't have a problem with you not wanting a different device either. You're imagining this.

    But back to the question: how do you use the Pre in a satisfactory manner in a business setting?

    Some mostly use desktop calendars with the Pre only being a secondary view, and as such, it's adequate. But then, why even use the Pre in the first place? The point is having a mobile calendar so I'm not tied to my computer.
    I primarily use it to read and respond to emails; however, I have had, on a number of occasions, a need to enter an apointment or a reminder. I've done both from my Pre in meetings. I use Quick Event most of the time, but have even used the standard normal every day calendar without an issue.

    I was also very happy to see that the Pre will add emailed iCal invitations into my Calendar. That was very much a "busines need" that was not met by my Treo. Most of my appointments (business related) are are accepting meeting invites.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I primarily use it to read and respond to emails; however, I have had, on a number of occasions, a need to enter an apointment or a reminder. I've done both from my Pre in meetings. I use Quick Event most of the time, but have even used the standard normal every day calendar without an issue.
    Have you entered a number of events in succession while people were talking to you? Did you ask them to wait?
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Have you entered a number of events in succession while people were talking to you? Did you ask them to wait?
    Of course, to be literal, "one" is a number, but I've on occasion entered as many as three appointments in the Pre in pretty quick succession. I've never had to ask someone to wait, using the Pre. I did, on occasion, with the Treo. I found tapping with the stylus to be much more difficult than typing short symbols into Quick Event.

    However, I'm sure the time will come when I will have to ask someone to wait while I enter an appointment. When that time comes, I will have no hesitation in asking them to wait while I catch up typing on a palm sized device with a 2.5" keyboard.

    If they don't understand, guess one of us will just miss out.

    Now that I've answered your questions, will you answer the one I keep repeating - Where in this thread have I disparaged anyone?

    A quote will be nice.

    Now that I've gotten that request in again, I will say I have no doubt you are having problems with the Pre's calendar. That does not mean everyone does. Nor does it mean that those that aren't are not "serious" users, and/or not "business" users. It just means they're different than you.

    BTW, I still maintain that most Pre users don't have the difficulty you seem to be having - but that is just a guess based solely on observations.

    BTW, I accompanied my wife to a presentation this week that she did for some doctors. The gentleman sitting next to me was busy putting dates that Gini mentioned into his device. At first, I thought it looked an awful lot like a Pre, both in appearance and in he calendar (though I wasn't 100% sure, since I usually enter dates using Quick Event). The case was a lot different though. Then, I looked closer, and noticed the distinctive button on the bottom and the "speaker" that looks like a dash. It was a Pre with a case I didn't recognize (he showed me later that it was a case that is built to work with a matching holster clip. Not familiar with it, but it looked pretty cool). He was a doctor, and seemed to be navigating the standard app very nicely. Much better than I could have, but then, I don't use it much.

    Maybe some practice when it's not important would help?
  6. #106  
    We'll get to the disparaging part. I know it's mostly meant to wear me out by searching the forums, but we'll get to it.

    As for entering events in succession, in a business setting when you are coordinating with others as opposed to entering events at your leisure, I will grant that it takes serious skill to keep up, because most of the time is spent waiting on the Pre, and one has to be quick to use every instance when the Pre becomes responsive. It's possible that you are a power user and others are not. From your description it sounds like I haven't yet reached your level of expertise and maybe I'm not as ready for the Pre as I thought.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    We'll get to the disparaging part. I know it's mostly meant to wear me out by searching the forums, but we'll get to it.

    As for entering events in succession, in a business setting when you are coordinating with others as opposed to entering events at your leisure, I will grant that it takes serious skill to keep up, because most of the time is spent waiting on the Pre, and one has to be quick to use every instance when the Pre becomes responsive. It's possible that you are a power user and others are not. From your description it sounds like I haven't yet reached your level of expertise and maybe I'm not as ready for the Pre as I thought.
    No need to search the forums, you statement was that it was I disparagig others, and the implication seemed that it was in this thread. No doubt I've said stuff about others on this forum, though of late I've made a deliberate attempt not to. However, even those were in direct response to personal attacks on myself.

    Have you tried Quick Event (and I don't mean a day or two, give it a couple of weeks where it's the only tool you use to enter data)? I almost gave up on it because I felt I was learning a new language - but when you get used to it, it becomes very simple.

    Meeting with Joe 1p-2p 10/30 @ His Office

    Now, you can complain that it's HomeBrew, it's not official from Palm (BTW, DateBK for the original Palm devices wasn't "official" for a long time), and then come to a user forum and complain about a lack of an official app; or you can use some that works.

    I'll leave it to you (and those reading) to decide which is more effective.
  8. larnapp's Avatar
    Posts
    171 Posts
    Global Posts
    181 Global Posts
    #108  
    I'm not sure that asking someone who thinks the calendar is fine and has even decided to to defend it, will ever result in anything more than a reiteration of, 'Yeah. I said it's fine, I double-checked, and it really is fine.' Seems kind of like asking OJ to put on that glove.

    On the other hand (no pun intended) I have the perspective of having taught thousands of people time management skills. My earliest classes were based on paper calendars sold by Franklin Quest (now Franklin Covey) and later I taught literally thousands of people how to do digital time management based on PDAs. I had the first ever video on using the Palm Pilot, and the topic was time management. As a trainer I needed to find tools and workflows that met needs of all calendar users. Paper calendars met those needs and then Palm Pilots and other PDAs and eventually smartphones did too. Unfortunately the Pre is a big step backwards from the company that used to exemplify how it was supposed to be done.

    The point many of us are trying to make (including me) is not necessarily that the calendar stinks for the way I use it (which it does, and which is why I get stirred up enough to bother posting in forums about it). The individual argument alone simply degrades into, "I don't like it," while the opposing argument becomes, "Well I do like it." - Common in forums but not especially worthwhile.

    The bigger point many of us are trying to make is that there are so many flaws in the current calendar that there aren't enough work-arounds available to adequately address the many shortcomings of the Pre's calendar, which affect lots of different users, not just me, (though not necessarily everyone) and the ways in which they use a calendar. Further, there are lots of examples of good calendar features and usability which Palm could (should) have used and it's frustrating to many of us that Palm has apparently ignored the needs of so many people by delivering something that, in many ways, is the lowest functioning calendar available on a smartphone today and which falls well short of functionality Palm has delivered since day 1.

    Lots of us are stuck with the Pre and/or Sprint for the time being
    Now, before you suggest that we might want to stop complaining and just go to another device, keep in mind that the reason many of us continue to complain is that we like lots of things about the Pre and want to keep it in spite of the sorry calendar. For instance, I would go back to my Treo 755p or a Centro in a cold minute IF the platform was going to be supported in the future. The phenomenally weak web experience, the large size, and the unsupported future are the only three reasons I left the Treo in the first place. Unfortunately, a company called Access owns the Palm OS and licenses it to Palm. Neither of these two companies care at all about maintaining or improving the Palm OS, so it is doomed to die slowly. Another problem is that many of us are stuck with Sprint or we refuse to use AT&T because of their sorry service. -- Why did I mention AT&T? Because the iPhone, while also far from perfect, seems to meet the actual needs of many more users than the Pre. -- Don't get me wrong, I don't want to carry an iPhone and the iPhone's calendar is pretty weak too, but it's light-years better, and faster than the Pre's. If the iPhone was on Sprint or Verizon I'd probably be using it because the calendar is instant and it syncs with my desktop and there are enough business and productivity apps to make the device usable for me.

    Obviously everybody wants their particular device to do everything they need it to. If the Pre works for you, great! Have a nice day. But realize that some of us with a particular complaint are trying to do what little we can to change things and find solutions. Many of us with Palm's Pre have traded bad web and bulk for bad calendar, bad sync options, bad memo and task options, and limited 3rd party developer access to root level functionality in order to have the hope of 3rd party solutions to Palm's shortcomings. We're stuck with two bad choices so our ONLY option is to complain and continually refine our concerns via forum posts and notes to Palm (and carry a separate calendar) until they're heard... or until there's an option we can actually use which does meet out needs more completely.
  9. larnapp's Avatar
    Posts
    171 Posts
    Global Posts
    181 Global Posts
    #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    ...

    Have you tried Quick Event (and I don't mean a day or two, give it a couple of weeks where it's the only tool you use to enter data)? I almost gave up on it because I felt I was learning a new language - but when you get used to it, it becomes very simple.

    Meeting with Joe 1p-2p 10/30 @ His Office

    Now, you can complain that it's HomeBrew, it's not official from Palm (BTW, DateBK for the original Palm devices wasn't "official" for a long time), and then come to a user forum and complain about a lack of an official app; or you can use some that works.

    I'll leave it to you (and those reading) to decide which is more effective.
    In fact, you don't even need Quick Event. You can use the SMS functionality of Google calendars as detailed in this thread, for appointment entry. (No homebrew or patches necessary):

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...dd-events.html

    While this is a brilliant work-around and a partial solution for slow appointment entry, there are still MANY calendar problems this does not overcome. Things like the practically worthless week and month views, the missing agenda view, the single, small font size, the unnecessary and slow accordion animations, the lack of a freaking search, the inability to have 2 or 3 hour advanced alerts for things like an airplane flight, the unreliable alert chimes, the lack of ability to assign different alert sounds to various appointments or at least something different that the same exact sound as the charger and text messages, etc.

    Plus, even with this partial solution, you still have to go to the event to change which calendar it's associated with if it's not the default calendar, you have to find and change the alert time if it's anything other than default. There's no way to attach a related note to the event without scrolling to it, opening it, editing it, etc., and in ANY case, you still have to navigate the painfully slow calendar to check for available dates and times before even beginning data entry via SMS or Quick Event.

    My car analogy...

    The Pre is like a hot new sports car just added to the marketplace. The calendar is like the transmission if it only went in first gear. Some folks would be thrilled at the privilege of owning the hot sports car and they'd drive all over their neighborhood with the windows down and the stereo jamming, enjoying the A/C, leather seats, and more. However, many new car owners would complain that their job required an interstate commute and it's embarrassing to have to drive on the shoulder with the hazard lights flashing, just to get to work. -- The Quick Event or SMS solution for appointment entry is like being allowed to drive in 3rd gear in limited circumstances (like only on downhill stretches of highway with 3 or more lanes between 9am and 4pm). Those who never leave their neighborhood think the complainers are just whiners or impatient because they aren't waiting for the manufacturer to come out with the real 5 speed gearbox. -- I've even gone so far as to carry a separate device for my calendar... an iPod Touch, just because the calendar is fast enough to use and it syncs to my desktop. 2 devices where 1 should do the job. -- That's like buying a flatbed towtruck so you can get to work on time and still have the cool sports car to drive around in near the office. But I'm stuck with this car until I pay it off (stuck with Sprint for a while), so I'll just keep complaining to the manufacturer.

    Paaaaaaallllllmmmm! Please fix my car!!!! (Um, calendar.)
    Last edited by larnapp; 10/29/2009 at 09:41 AM. Reason: More details of the shortcomings of the calendar
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by larnapp View Post
    I'm not sure that asking someone who thinks the calendar is fine and has even decided to to defend it, will ever result in anything more than a reiteration of, 'Yeah. I said it's fine, I double-checked, and it really is fine.' Seems kind of like asking OJ to put on that glove.

    On the other hand (no pun intended) I have the perspective of having taught thousands of people time management skills. My earliest classes were based on paper calendars sold by Franklin Quest (now Franklin Covey) and later I taught literally thousands of people how to do digital time management based on PDAs.
    ...
    I'm not going to repeat the entire post, but it is very relevant, and I even agree with much of it.

    I hope you understand my point is not that the Pre's calendar app is perfect "as is". My point has been, and will be, that the device is a "work in progress", and I do not mean from Palm. I mean from the general community. And (my point is) that is exactly what happened with the Palm Pilot

    I was one of those that used a paper planner. I was also probably one of those that saw instructions like the one you did, implemented about 10% of what was taught, and then wrote it off as me being who I am (but that's a whole 'nother thread).

    I remember my early involvement with GroupWise, and how thrilled I was when they provided the ability to print out my schedule on DayPlanner forms that I could insert in my day planner. I would update GroupWise daily, and reprint my forms weekly, so my history was not only in GroupWise, but in my DayPlanner, and in a format that I could read (my writing is terrible).

    When I bought my first Palm III, I immediately saw that this should be able to allow me to do everyting on the Palm III, and just upload it to GroupWise.

    It was a great theory, the only problem was that there was no way to do it.

    Not then at least. It took a few months (after I bought my Palm III - in reality, it took a couple years after the initial Palm Pilot), but Intellisync came out with a system that did exactly what I needed. It synced my GroupWise calendar with my Palm III.

    I still wasn't thrilled with the calendar app though, but it was usable. Then one day I discovered DateBK3 (which eventually became DateBK6). Now I could add categories that were usable, I could add icons, I could get my all day events, and even tasks all on one calendar that I could recognize and use on the Palm.

    Suddenly, the device became more than a gadget curiosity, but a usable tool for me, that actually replaced something that was still costing me money (as I'm sure you know, those pre-printed forms weren't cheap, though I've got a couple of packets that I'd make someone a very good deal on).

    Was life with my device perfect? Far from it. It seemed that everytime I updated the Palm (which I'd do frequently), I'd have to pay to update DateBK (which wasn't too bad) and Intellisync (which was a bit more expensive). I don't think I ever once thought that somehow Palm owed me a free version of DateBK (though they eventually did give folks that, but I still preferred the more robust commercial version), or that Intellisync should update their conduit for free when Palm changed the OS.

    I understood these were different companies that did different things. That enabled each of them to do what they did well. Palm cannot be the be all to all. They have to concentrate on a core business, developing the platform for others to expand on.

    I see the Pre as being where that original Palm Pilot was so many years ago. A new platform that will need to grow. That growth will not only come from Palm, but from third party developers. And it will take some time.

    Personally, I'm pleased with the speed in which I see developers developing for the Pre. It's been out six months, and we're already seeing third party software that improve the basics. That's a good thing.

    If they (Palm) do some tweaks to make it more useful, I'm grateful (just like I'm sure many were when "datebk lite" came standard on the Treo 600); however, I understand that they must do their business model.

    I see nothing at all wrong with posts such as yours; but I do not believe folks are going to be very successful demanding Palm give them something for free, with some sense of entitlement. I do see value in posts such as yours, because they allow developers, and even Palm, to see what possiblities there are for third party development.

    By the same token (and I'm sure with my explanation, whether you agree or not, makes it clear why) I don't see the value in the "This sucks, I'm giving up on Palm, they'r such luzers" type posts.
  11. #111  
    Again, what happened in the past was that Palm came out with a product, and a third party vendor came with a better one, and Palm finally licensed a version of it. Nobody is asking Palm for the perfect all powerful calendar ever conceived. We just expect it to work.

    We're not asking for it to be groundbreaking, paradigm shifting and being everything for everyone. The problems with the current calendar are of very poor execution.

    Just what is it that's more important to Palm that it neglects the PIM tools? You seem to imply that it can't focus on them as a core business. Okay, what then? JavaScript games?
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    Again, what happened in the past was that Palm came out with a product, and a third party vendor came with a better one, and Palm finally licensed a version of it. Nobody is asking Palm for the perfect all powerful calendar ever conceived. We just expect it to work.

    We're not asking for it to be groundbreaking, paradigm shifting and being everything for everyone. The problems with the current calendar are of very poor execution.

    Just what is it that's more important to Palm that it neglects the PIM tools? You seem to imply that it can't focus on them as a core business. Okay, what then? JavaScript games?
    I don't think Palm has released any JavaScript games. Did I miss something?

    I agree with your first paragraph. That's what happened in the past. It could be what's happening now. We don't know yet, because the Pre is only 6 months old. It's going to take some time for the third party vendors to come up with a better app, for Palm to look at it, and license it.

    However, even "back then", Palm only licensed a few of those better apps, and they were almost always "crippled" or "lite" versions of the commercial app. The three I know of (and used) were PocketMirror, DateBk, and Pocket Tunes. All eventually become available as a "standard" (and in all three cases, many months after the commercial release), and all were light versions of the real product. I never bought the better version of PocketMirror, but I did Pocket Tunes and DateBK.
  13. larnapp's Avatar
    Posts
    171 Posts
    Global Posts
    181 Global Posts
    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I'm not going to repeat the entire post, but it is very relevant, and I even agree with much of it.

    I hope you understand my point is not that the Pre's calendar app is perfect "as is". My point has been, and will be, that the device is a "work in progress", and I do not mean from Palm. I mean from the general community. And (my point is) that is exactly what happened with the Palm Pilot

    I was one of those that used a paper planner. I was also probably one of those that saw instructions like the one you did, implemented about 10% of what was taught, and then wrote it off as me being who I am (but that's a whole 'nother thread).

    I remember my early involvement with GroupWise, and how thrilled I was when they provided the ability to print out my schedule on DayPlanner forms that I could insert in my day planner. I would update GroupWise daily, and reprint my forms weekly, so my history was not only in GroupWise, but in my DayPlanner, and in a format that I could read (my writing is terrible).

    When I bought my first Palm III, I immediately saw that this should be able to allow me to do everyting on the Palm III, and just upload it to GroupWise.

    It was a great theory, the only problem was that there was no way to do it.

    Not then at least. It took a few months (after I bought my Palm III - in reality, it took a couple years after the initial Palm Pilot), but Intellisync came out with a system that did exactly what I needed. It synced my GroupWise calendar with my Palm III.

    I still wasn't thrilled with the calendar app though, but it was usable. Then one day I discovered DateBK3 (which eventually became DateBK6). Now I could add categories that were usable, I could add icons, I could get my all day events, and even tasks all on one calendar that I could recognize and use on the Palm.

    Suddenly, the device became more than a gadget curiosity, but a usable tool for me, that actually replaced something that was still costing me money (as I'm sure you know, those pre-printed forms weren't cheap, though I've got a couple of packets that I'd make someone a very good deal on).

    Was life with my device perfect? Far from it. It seemed that everytime I updated the Palm (which I'd do frequently), I'd have to pay to update DateBK (which wasn't too bad) and Intellisync (which was a bit more expensive). I don't think I ever once thought that somehow Palm owed me a free version of DateBK (though they eventually did give folks that, but I still preferred the more robust commercial version), or that Intellisync should update their conduit for free when Palm changed the OS.

    I understood these were different companies that did different things. That enabled each of them to do what they did well. Palm cannot be the be all to all. They have to concentrate on a core business, developing the platform for others to expand on.
    All true. But when the original Palm, Inc. released the Pilot, there were no competitors and they did more than everyone and did it better. The evolution you detailed so well was exactly why Palm was relevant and why users were interested and why 3rd party developers came up with more and better solutions.

    Unfortunately for Palm, this is no longer 1998 or even 2005 and they have entered a market with MANY mature calendar functions. People weren't upset with Palm of 1998 for not having various calendar functions because they weren't invented yet. People weren't terribly upset with Apple in 2005 for having no App store or 3rd party options. When Palm rolls out a new platform in 2009 that has a very weak calendar and PIM (arguably a critical function in a smartphone) and everyone else has one, people will complain. And when you go 2 quarters with not so much as a nod in the direction of PIM repair, patient people begin to lose their patience.

    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I see the Pre as being where that original Palm Pilot was so many years ago. A new platform that will need to grow. That growth will not only come from Palm, but from third party developers. And it will take some time.

    Personally, I'm pleased with the speed in which I see developers developing for the Pre. It's been out six months, and we're already seeing third party software that improve the basics. That's a good thing.
    This sounds reasonable and I'd almost go to my quiet place and wait patiently with you for real-world calendar usability with the hopes that, if Palm doesn't hear and respond, as noisy as us calendar (PIM) complainers are, some 3rd party is bound to plug the holes. The problem with this theory is that we're not talking about a missing grocery list program. This is the calendar and programming a calendar requires full access to the core operating system code to control system events properly. While Palm's webOS SDK is a nice start for people wanting to program Beerology or puzzle game apps, it's lightyears away from being useful to program calendar patches, much less a replacement calendar. Unfortunately, any worthwhile calendar solution needs to originate in Sunnyvale, CA with the folks on board the mothership.

    And what 3rd party programmer in their right mind would try to invent a webOS calendar replacement without Palm's explicit invitation to do so? It's such an integral part of the device that you need the platform developer's blessing and insights or your calendar won't work or keep working with successive updates. (By the way, CESD was able to program DateBk 1-6 specifically because Palm released 100% of the application code from day one when the Palm Pilot came out. Programmers all had full access to the code for each of the Palm apps so they could model new apps after them. That access is NOT currently available with the Pre.)

    Even if the webOS SDK gave programmers necessary access to core functionality, the installed user base is not even remotely sufficient to support a developer who might be willing to tackle the daunting task (hundreds/thousands of programmer hours) of programming a calendar for webOS. The payoff just isn't there. Again, Palm (or someone they hire) is the only possible solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    If they (Palm) do some tweaks to make it more useful, I'm grateful (just like I'm sure many were when "datebk lite" came standard on the Treo 600); however, I understand that they must do their business model.
    Mkay. But what is Palm's business model? Who IS their target market? Specifically defined, who? -- The ONLY term I have ever heard from anybody is "the fat middle." That's a vague and nebulous term I'd expect to hear from a hedging politician. Is it social networkers? Is it high-school and college girls?

    The problem here is that, unless Palm publicly defines their target market, we all can only guess based on their signals. Whoever there market is, all signals indicate it does NOT appear to be enterprise users.

    A HUGE problem with the whole crappy-calendar-Palm-doesn't-seem-to-care situation is that this signals in a BIG way, that Palm is NOT courting the enterprise user so developers who MIGHT consider programming for webOS probably ought to focus on things like social media, music, and games. Palm is obviously NOT targeting business users so developers will very likely NOT go against the pattern established by Palm.

    I wouldn't expect programmers to waste time programming an outlining program or a spreadsheet for a Nintendo DS. If the Pre and webOS aren't for enterprise, Palm needs to "fess-up."

    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I see nothing at all wrong with posts such as yours; but I do not believe folks are going to be very successful demanding Palm give them something for free, with some sense of entitlement. I do see value in posts such as yours, because they allow developers, and even Palm, to see what possiblities there are for third party development.

    By the same token (and I'm sure with my explanation, whether you agree or not, makes it clear why) I don't see the value in the "This sucks, I'm giving up on Palm, they'r such luzers" type posts.
    Thanks. I, too, believe in civil discussions and thorough flushing out of topics like this. Whether or not we are successful as a large group of disgruntled calendar users, in helping Palm see why THEY need to consider serving us as a valid market segment, remains to be seen. You don't see why Palm should include this functionality and I do. On that small point, we disagree. I still think you're the kind of person I'd like to have a beer with (though I'd never schedule it on my Pre's calendar because the beer would be warm by the time I finished entering the appointment).

    Thanks for the thoughtful conversation. I hope Palm cares as much as you and I do, about this topic, and finding a solution in-house or with a licensed/commissioned developer.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by larnapp View Post
    ...
    Mkay. But what is Palm's business model? Who IS their target market? Specifically defined, who? -- The ONLY term I have ever heard from anybody is "the fat middle." That's a vague and nebulous term I'd expect to hear from a hedging politician. Is it social networkers? Is it high-school and college girls?
    ...
    You know what, I dont know what their target is, and it wouldn't surprise me to find out they don't know. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the new folks at Palm said "Hey, let's make a phone that has every cool basic feature we can think of, throw in a couple that no one seems to have considered before, and see what people think." Assuming that's the case, is that a bad business plan? Possibly, depending on what business those looking to buy are in. But it's also possibly a good business plan, depending on who the buyers are.

    I work for the government (not directly, but through a contractor). I would absolutely not recommend the Pre for that use. But then, I wouldn't recommend an Android, an iPhone, or a Treo either. There's (currently) only one device I'd recommend for that use, and that's a BlackBerry.

    Will that change in 6 months? Possibly. Will that change in a year, almost definitely. Microsoft is looking more and more at BES and adapting EAS. Interestingly (and I still haven't figured out when Microsoft became a born-again licensing company) Microsoft is licensing out EAS, so it's beginning to look like that will become a new defacto standard (are you paying attention RIM???) I suspect that within a year, we'll see EAS able to secure iPhones, and widely so (including agents for not only for Exchange systems, but GroupWise, probably even Lotus Notes). Because of the foundation that Palm laid, and it really is only a foundation at this point, the Pre will follow right along.

    Now, I know it sounds as if I'm bearing far off on the Calendar issue, but really not so much. Bear with me.

    I'm not much of a music on my phone person (by not much, I mean almost not at all - the only reason I bought Pocket Tunes was because the early version of Light Wave needed it to do decent ring tones). However, apparently some Pre purchasers are. They've already been complaining about as vociferously as the "I want my PIM" folks. Some of their complaints are even harder to overcome (what can Palm do about the 8gb limitation, or 32gb on the next iteration, or ... you name the restriction). From what I read, those audiophiles find Palm's "answer" (their music player) to be as far from the mark as PIMophiles (yeah, I just made that up) find the Calendar.

    So, what's Palm to do? Hire three large teams of engineers to come up with a solution for me (so I can recommend to my govt. superiors that the security is finally where it should be), you (so you can be thrilled with the calendar program), or the audiophiles (sorry, I don't know any of them to use as a personal example)? Do they have that type of resources? I don't think so. Should they pick one concentrate on it, and hope they picked the right one? No, let me rephrase that, bet their company that they picked the right one?

    How about a different approach. Could it be they put this really cool device out there, wait to see where the butterflies settle, and at the same time, make it as easy as they can for developers to start adding functionality?

    I think that's what they've done.

    And yeah, that's just my opinion.

    I know it sucks for those that need "better" in any of the three examples I've given. Some will move on to other devices. Some will do what I'm going to be doing (as soon as my govt. approved BB arrives), carry the "It does what I have to do" device along with the "I think it's cool" device. Some folks will have no particular need and will be happy enough using it as it works "today" (whenver "today" is), and look forward with what's coming tomorrow.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by larnapp View Post
    ...
    This is the calendar and programming a calendar requires full access to the core operating system code to control system events properly. While Palm's webOS SDK is a nice start for people wanting to program Beerology or puzzle game apps, it's lightyears away from being useful to program calendar patches, much less a replacement calendar. Unfortunately, any worthwhile calendar solution needs to originate in Sunnyvale, CA with the folks on board the mothership.
    ...
    I think you've overestimated the difficulty of this particular one. A good PIM program really won't require a high level SDK. What it will require is that developers "break the rules" of the current SDK, and access the database(s) "owned" by other apps. Thus, any such application (which, BTW, Quick Event does very nicely) would not make it into the App Catalog under the current SDK.

    How hard is such access? Not very, in my opinion. I have to say, I can't say this with 100% certainty, since I can't/won't do it myself. However, I've been tempted to try. The SQL Lite database is there. The data is in it (I've looked at the database). It would take me a little time to figure out the database structure (or the right tools, which are probably out there). I haven't done it myself because:
    • I hate database work. I used to do it for a living, and got totally burned out on it. Just lookin at the tables started depressing me.
    • Even if I figured out the structure, I'd have to learn Javascript, and improve my limited HTML and CSS skills.

    I think I could do these things, if I got motivated enough; but I really don't think that will happen.

    However, here's the crux of my point. I've been tempted. I'm still tempted. And, even with my limited skills, I think I could do it; though I'm probably not going to.

    So, you ask why? Because I'd be willing to bet that there's someone more skilled and talented than I that not only has already been inspired to do so, but has already started. We won't see the fruits of that labor until an avenue arrives for that person (or those people) to sell the program(s) for money, instead of begging for "donations".

    Until that time, we'll get hints about such apps by things like Agenda and Quick Event. Some that catch the vision will not only see the hints, but the promise behind them.
  16. larnapp's Avatar
    Posts
    171 Posts
    Global Posts
    181 Global Posts
    #116  
    hparsons-

    Regarding your take on Palm's decision to not define a market, unfortunately you're probably right.

    I happen to think it's a foolish business decision to create a product with such a vague approach as, "we're not sure who's gonna buy it but it's cool so let's just put it out there and see what happens," seems a little foolhardy in any economy or competitive industry. Even though I'm keeping my Pre until something better comes along, I have sold all my Palm stock because of their corporate attitude.

    ===

    Regarding your belief that a little database hacking is all that's needed to patch up or rewrite the calendar, I'm not sure I agree. The problem is not as easy as just adding different alarm sound or cobbling together an agenda view. The calendar is fundamentally broken in many ways beyond what I've mentioned here, but if you'll allow me to quote myself, here's a short list (and I'm thinking most of this is beyond a little database tweaking):

    Things like the practically worthless week and month views, the missing agenda view, the single, small font size, the unnecessary and slow accordion animations, the lack of a freaking search, the inability to have 2 or 3 hour advanced alerts for things like an airplane flight, the unreliable alert chimes, the lack of ability to assign different alert sounds to various appointments or at least something different that the same exact sound as the charger and text messages, etc.

    Plus, even with this partial solution (Quick Event), you still have to go to the event to change which calendar it's associated with if it's not the default calendar, you have to find and change the alert time if it's anything other than default. There's no way to attach a related note to the event without scrolling to it, opening it, editing it, etc., and in ANY case, you still have to navigate the painfully slow calendar to check for available dates and times before even beginning data entry via SMS or Quick Event.

    But above all, it's just so bloody slow to navigate and enter data the way you're supposed to enter it!

    Anybody fixing the calendar effectively would need to write a program that taps into the core functionality of the operating system to make screen draws happen instantly, day to day scrolling instantly, and recreate all of the views because the current ones are so weak, add new views (agenda, year), make the typefaces or the whole view scalable, make it so you can see the actual time of appointments without opening individual events, make it so repeating events actually land on the correct days all the time, make it so events don't change dates just because you power down in the Eastern time zone and sign back on to the network in the Pacific time zone when your plane lands. These are system level, fundamental errors.

    Holy crap!! This calendar is BROKEN and that's just what I can think of right now!! (there's more)
    Last edited by larnapp; 10/29/2009 at 01:10 PM.
  17. phlegm's Avatar
    Posts
    73 Posts
    Global Posts
    76 Global Posts
    #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedar View Post
    I think these forums would easily scare away any future Pre buyer.
    I think all forums (for competing hardware) have similar gripes posted. I don't think there's anything wrong with knowing the issues when you buy a product.

    Besides, many of these issues have been fixed through patches anyway.
  18. #118  
    Yeah, please fix the friggin calendar for all the reasons mentioned above.
  19.    #119  
    Since I started this thread, I have tried my best to work with the Pre calendar, but have given up. I have switched to the hero. It took a couple of days to get used to the software screen, but the word suggestions are so good I think I am faster with it than the pre. I love all the apps.....they have a text replacement that works like the old Palm Butler with notifications, etc. I have a native drug app for work that is equal or better than epocrates. The 7 screens are like 7 cards open.

    Sorry Palm, I have been an advocate for over a decade, and bought virtually every product you have made, but have sold my pre on ebay. I will come back......but you need to address the problems outlined in this and other threads.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by rcyphermd View Post
    Since I started this thread, I have tried my best to work with the Pre calendar, but have given up. I have switched to the hero. It took a couple of days to get used to the software screen, but the word suggestions are so good I think I am faster with it than the pre. I love all the apps.....they have a text replacement that works like the old Palm Butler with notifications, etc. I have a native drug app for work that is equal or better than epocrates. The 7 screens are like 7 cards open.

    Sorry Palm, I have been an advocate for over a decade, and bought virtually every product you have made, but have sold my pre on ebay. I will come back......but you need to address the problems outlined in this and other threads.
    Well, you certainly hung in there. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if Palm addresses the calendar concerns within a couple of weeks (before/as the Pixi debuts).
    * Stuck patches? Partial erase worked for me.
    * Stuck virtual keyboard? Partial erase AND folder deletion worked for me.
Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst 1234567891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions